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YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Old 01-30-2009, 06:05 PM
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ChrisAttebery
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Default YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Hey guys,

I just ran my new to me YS FZ110 on the bench for the first time. I'm running a mixture of 40% boat fuel and 5% Cool Power. The resulting mixture is around 25% nitro. I'm running a YS plug. I'm using a APC 13x11 prop. The motor was reported to have been serviced by YSPS after the owner last ran it.

The motor idles well and accelerates well, but I notice that when I nail the throttle it peaks at around 10250 and then slowly falls off. If I richen the HSN the peak is lower and the motor gets rougher and rougher. If I lean it it gets to a point where it only drops about 400rpm then any leaner and it starts to sag, but not to the point of a backfire.

The HSN is currently at about 1 7/8 turns out. The regulator is flush. I haven't touched the LSN.

Could my problem be a lack of oil in the fuel? I'm pretty sure the fuel I'm using is around 18% oil.

Thanks for your help,


Chris
Old 01-30-2009, 06:35 PM
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42etus
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

For starters Chris, I'd get some known fuel of at least 20% all synthetic oil, fire it up on that and see what happens. I'm kind of fussy about the fuelI use in my YS engines. Not that your mystery fuel is causing the problem, but starting with a proven fuel will eliminate that as the cause. Also I personaly think that 10K+ is a little high for the 110. I like to keep them around 9500 or so. Cheers
Paul
Old 01-30-2009, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

You might want to go get a good known fuel that is at least 20% oil and 20% nitro. There are quite a few YS 20/20 blends out there and a lot of guys have been running Cool Power 30% heli. Also, prop the engine for 9000 to 9500 RPM unless you need the higher RPM for 3D. If it still gives you grief then richen the regulator just a taste and see if that helps, but I would find a good known fuel to start with just to get it dialed in.
Old 01-30-2009, 06:48 PM
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ChrisAttebery
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Pete,

I realize that the RPM level is higher than the typical pattern/aerobatic setup. I picked the prop based on recommendation from several people who have used that prop with the plane/engine I'm working with. It's a 46 sized Strega and will be raced in a warbird class.

I'll have to see if I can get a gallon of YS 20/20 fuel locally. While I'm at it I'll try to pick up some oil to add to my mixture and bring the oil content up to 20%. I have a few gallons left over from my boat racing days. It'd be a shame to not use it.

Thanks,


Chris
Old 01-30-2009, 08:48 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

I have heard all sorts of stories about warbird racers and how they run YS engines. I particularly like the ones about pilots who blow the jug off the engine. It would be cool to watch one of those races as there is nothing like that around here.

The manual says 11K is the top end of the RPM range and you are below that so valve float should not be the issue. Try richening the regulator a hair, like an 1/8th of a turn out and see if that helps any, and by all means bring your oil level up.
Old 01-30-2009, 08:57 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Chris,
You may wish to visit Troy Newman's site for some very specific and very good information on set up for YS engines; see:
http://www.patternflyer.com/troy/?page_id=13

Troy recommends RPM of 8800 - 9800 as best for YS 110Z; I run mine at 9500 RPM, using Morgan Cool Power Heli 30% nitro 23% low viscosity all synthetic oil. No problems; engine is dependable and responsive throughout entire range of throttle.

Hope this is helpful.

Happy Flying!
Ken
Old 01-31-2009, 12:32 AM
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Jimmy Skids
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Chris,
I agree with the others in that it sounds like the fuel. The Sacramento racers like the APC 13X13N prop on these motors, with 20% you can expect about 10k-10.3K.

I just ran out to the shop and pulled one of my 110FZ manuals off the shelf. "Practical RPM up to 13k" so at 10K plus your still safe. I've ran mine up in the 11k range with no adverse effects. The key is good fuel with a proper oil pack. I would assume that by mixing two different fuels your oil "consistencey" may be causing the problem.

Let us hear how she runs on a different brew.
Jimmy Skids
Old 01-31-2009, 11:22 AM
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ChrisAttebery
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

I've never seen any motor do what this one is doing. The peak happens almost immediately and only lasts a couple seconds before it starts to fall off. The funny thing is it sounds like it's falling off rich to my ear. I've got a Satio 82 so I'm not a 4 stroke virgin.

I'll have to see if I can get some new fuel this week.

I'll report back when I get another chance to run it.

Thanks!


Chris
Old 02-03-2009, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

I bought a couple gallons of Power Master YS 20/20 yesterday. I got the motor back on the stand and it seems to be a little more behaved. It does fall off a little after I nail the throttle, but not as bad as the other fuel. I was able to get it to consistently pull the 13x11 at around 9700. It would peak just over 10k. The HS needle was at around 1-1/4 turns at peak and I backed it off about 1/8 turn and then ran 24oz of fuel through it at various throttle settings. I'll keep running it in until the plane is ready to fly. I also bought a quart of Klotz Techniplate and I'll try adding 4-6 oz to my boat fuel mixture and see if it helps it run a little smoother.

Thanks for all of your help,


Chris
Old 02-03-2009, 06:01 PM
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Jimmy Skids
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Chris,

One trick I use in tuning for my race planes.

I never tach the first time I get to full throttle, I always drop back down to the mid range for a 10 seconds or so then increase throttle to full again ...... then I tach the motor. I've found that the readings the first time are slightly higher than at any other time.

Also, since you seem to be a "ear" guy, one thing I listen for when checking the motor prior to flight is for the RPM's to slightly and slowly increase over few seconds at full throttle. I usually leave the mid range a little rich and this may account for the increase while at wide open after a short period. On the other hand if you go to full and then it slows after a few seconds your top end may be too lean unless you are very rich in which case your regulator is a little lean.

Skids
Old 02-03-2009, 06:33 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Jimmy,

After racing boats for any length of time you become an "ear guy". You can't tune a boat on the bench.

Your explanation of the sag sounds reasonable, I'll try setting the mid range a little richer next time I run it and see if it climbs slightly at WOT instead of falling off.


Chris
Old 02-04-2009, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

When going from idle to full throttle how is the transition in the midrange? If it doesn't seem to be going rich then maybe backing the regulator out a taste might help you on the top end as Jimmy stated.

Glad to see a that you picked up a little YS 20/20 fuel. It's always nice to have at least one known quantity when adjusting an engine.
Old 02-04-2009, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

It seems to be fine in the mid range, maybe a little rich. I can hear a little crackle if I leave it in the mid range for a while. If I gun the throttle it accelerates smoothly up to peak.

I think it just needs a gallon or so put through it before I try to get the last bit of power out of it. I'll run a few more tanks on the bench before I try any more tuning. In the mean time I've got a lot of work to do to get the airframe ready to fly.

Back to work...
Old 02-10-2009, 04:37 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

I ran the 110 again today and made some progress on the sagging issue. I tried richening the regulator and it got very smokey in the mid range and I could see the peak fall off a few hundred RPM every time I nailed the throttle. I could actually run the motor at a higher RPM at 3/4-7/8 throttle than wide open. So, I tried leaning out the regulator and then leaning the top end. The acceleration was much more consistent. Using Jimmy Skid's technique I could nail the throttle and it would hit about 9750 and then slowly climb to 9800-9900 and stay within that 100 RPM range. Any leaner on the HSN would start to sag after 5-10 seconds, any richer and it wouldn't get to 9800. I then started retuning the regulator. I fattened it up about 1/16 turn and it seems very happy at that setting. I can clearly see smoke a bit over 1/2 throttle, but it isn't too thick either. The HSN wound up at around 1-1/4 turn. With the way it ran today I'd feel comfortable dropping it in the plane now.

Thanks to everyone for your help.


Chris

Old 02-10-2009, 08:58 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

That's good to hear. At least now if you go back to your own blend you know the engie was at a good baseline.
Old 02-10-2009, 11:10 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Chris,
One last word of advice, make sure that you leave it a little rich on the top end. These motors unload in the air quite a bit and the last thing you want is to go lean while your still breaking it in. Of all the YS engines that I have experience with, the 110's seem to be the least tollerant of even one lean run.

I don't know what 13x11 prop your running, but the 110FZ really does well on an APC 13x13N in your type of application.
Jimmy Skids
Old 02-11-2009, 11:36 AM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Jimmy,

I'm using the APC 13x11 pattern prop. It was recommended by a few of the racers from Arizona and So Cal as a good prop for low nitro. I'm going to order a few of the 13x13N once I get the plane ready to fly.

How much are you backing the needle off? Are you going by RPM drop or just a certain number of clicks?

Thanks,


Chris
Old 02-11-2009, 11:55 PM
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Default RE: YS FZ110: Top end peaks and then quickly sags

Chris,
I tend to back off by "ear" and "eye". I listen for a drop in RPM as I richen, then I look at the smoke and try to make the first few flights a little rich. I watch how it reacts in the air then fine tune adjustment after landing by a click or two at a time. Keep in mind that I do use a tach as well, but more so to keep track of RPM and how the plane performed so that I have a reference point to go back to.
Jimmy Skids

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