Jcurrier

Hey all,

I just won a Ace R/C simple series Messerschmidt ME-109 at a christmas gift exchange. Kit had been opened and plans were missing but i found a new set of plans at thundertiger4u.com. The wife gave me the "look" when i told her the plans cost $38 and included a plane too. So now i have two to experiment with. Spent a couple days reading through the numerous threads and thought i would try to summarize and try to get feedback on how the different build techniques worked. So here goes...

3/4" strapping tape... can we say "****ly"? Like the carbon rods but seems a bit too flexible, wood spars seem heavy, shish kabob inserts.. not bad.., saw one glassed (heavy?), one with only monokote(weak) and one with 1/32" sheathing which seems best. figured i would take Rogs idea to add lightening holes in styro to offset weight of sheathing.

Seen 2 servo, 3 servo but not 4. Weight of 4 micros (hitec HS-80) comes out to 77 grams. Weight of 2 standard (as per plans) is 86 grams so why hasn't anybody went 4 channel? I figure with a small li-po, park flyer 2.4 Ghz reciever and carbon push rods i'm still under the 18oz recommended.

Interesting thread regarding using a bladder instead of a 1oz tank. Picked up a Cox .049/.051 with a Hiscott throttle/muffler from a good friend which will spin a 5.7x3.0 prop (or 5-3 once i get the kinks worked out). Bladder would be lighter, constant fuel pressure and no clunk so more weight off. Anybody have any idea how this engine will run with a bladder?

Cover will be low temp ultra or monokote. Pattern using different colors of coating cut to reduce overlap and weight. Seems the most logical but i'm still open for (light weight) ideas.

My history is with larger planes (.46 and up) and even giant scale (96" Ziroli F6f and Bob Dively Avenger) This is my first leap into the 1/2A world and i'm pretty keen on the lighter is better idea. Also, kind of like building a plane in only a week and for less than my average $4K. Wife likes the idea too but she just doesn't understand!

Would love to hear some other idea for improving. Love to build and even though the kit says simple.. i don't mind massaging things a bit.

flyinrog

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You must have been reading an old thread?...I wouldnt bother with lightening holes in the foam wings,,and I always do the strapping tape along the wing......the simple series are fun planes,, I have an ultimate waiting on the build board...been through a few of the simple series planes......have fun with it....Rog

Free Bird

The strapping tape works fine. In fact it gives the wing a little flexibility. I never had any problems with wing failure and I used to beat the snot of my AT6. Great, fun little plane! Enjoy your Me-109

FB

longdan

A good way to keep these light is to not use the balsa they supply in the kit. The few simple series planes that I have had all had very heavy balsa.
Buy the kit for the plans, wing cores and canopy/cowl, and supply the rest yourself.
I had a simple P51 that I crashed and wrote off the fuse. I built another from the plans using balsa from the LHS, and it came in much lighter than the kit built fuse, even though I glassed the nose and had some extra reinforcing inside.

Andrew

There is an option that can give a nice finish and reasonable strength/weight ratio. Here are some alternatives:

1) Skin with 1/32" sheet. Your wings are molded, not cut, so you won't have any shucks to apply pressure. That pretty much eliminates PolyU unless you vacuum bag. You can use epoxy or thinned aliphatic. Epoxy is heavy and needs to be squeegeed to hold the weight down. Thinned aliphatic will cause the 1/32" sheet to curl unless you dampen both sides, but still needs pressure to stick well. 1/32" sheet will add some strength and give a smooth base for covering.

2) Strapping tape adds a lot of strength without too much weight. If you don't do too many outside loops, you can apply a single strip on the bottom at the maximum thickness. You still have to cover and the tape will show.

3) I've never had good results covering raw cores with any of the plastics -- they always end up looking like a plastic bag of sand. I have painted foam cores with lightweight spackle thinned with water and gotten a semi-smooth surface. I have also applied 1/2 oz. fiberglass cloth with WBPU -- adds a lot of stiffness, gives a semi-smooth surface, but it can get heavy quickly. Several brands of WBPU are not fuel proof above 18 to 20% and will get gummy. You can either paint or cover with one of the plastics.

4) More work, but may give the best all around results. Use an balsa strip LE and TE -- this will add strength and give hinge points if necessary. Add 1/16" sheeting to the leading and trailing edge surfaces. Add capstrips to the open area between the LE and TE sheeting. This gives strength without fully sheeting the wing. Cover with one of the plastics or doculam. Since the plastic is held off the surface of the foam, the final appearance looks like a builtup wing and, when shrunk, gives a stiff result. I've attached a plan -- see the steps at the top. Been around since the mid-70's.

Unless you've run a pressure bladder before, I would not recommend it as a first attempt with 1/2A. You would really need a fine thread needle for good mixture control with a pressure bladder. You can run a non-pressure bladder if you like. If you have exhaust pressure, or not, run a film can or wedding bubble tank. They are much lighter than the commercial 1 and 2 oz. tanks.

Jcurrier

ok, recognizing that the packing tape is really light and strong... it's just so damn ugly! Call me a priss but i just can't fly/crash a plane that ugly *merry laughter*

I really like your idea of sheeting just the LE and TE and then using cap strips. I'll definitely try that on one of them. My favorite way of sheeting on styro is to mix plain wood glue and water 50/50 and paint both the planking (sheeting is CA'd together into sheets big enough to cover entire styro surface) and styro surface with a thin coat. let both of them dry for about 20 minutes and then iron them on at low temp with my wife's (don't tell her) clothes iron. The heat re-melts the thin layers of glue and instantly sticks the sheeting to the styro as soon as the iron goes across. Just have to be careful that you don't leave it on too long or you'll melt the styro and leave concave areas. I did that with my TBF-1 Avenger which had a 3 part wing each of roughly 36" x 18". It was way to big to try and use sand bags, vacuum etc to form the balsa around the curved surfaces and wait for it to dry. Also, it's a very quick method once you get all your surfaces coated and allows for fast building. Strongly recommend practicing on scrap to get the heat right.

I've heard of the film can tank but not the wedding bubble. Can you give me any more info on that Andrew? The plan you posted is great by the way, thank you.

I wouldn't have even thought about the balso weight longdan, what a great idea. I have a large stock left over from my giant scale F6F i scratch built. I know this is of top quality so i'm going to compare weights tonight.

I noticed nobody said anything about the 4 channel yet.. hmmm

What about using CA hinges versus the "thread" hinges on the plan or versus even small hinge points?

haha, and yes Rog.. i finally stopped reading old threads when i got back to summer of 2004. I'm a structural engineer (aka nerd) so i habitually research all my projects.. sometimes to the extreme.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

The wedding bubbles are a novelty item for guest tables ...its a small 4-6 sided 1/2oz bottle of soapy water ,just like the bubbles you blew threw the round paddle as a kid...same idea as the film can , but smaller,,the smallest tank I made was from a visine bottle..you put a tube for the vent through the firewall to use the propwash to pressurize the tank...you really need to get someone to hand launch your first flight,,and with a teedee it will need a good hard level throw....

oh and btw your a "priss"..its a simple series, you throw it together and fly it for fun..it doesnt go in the trophy case!!!
I've never used the sewn on hinges, just small strips of regular hinge material....
4-channel..your gonna be at full throttle most of the time so most dont bother with a throttle on a cox engine...probably dont really need the rudder either ..depends on your flying style...Rog

one more thing depending on your field, you may want to leave off the landing gear and put on a couple of popcycle stick sized balsa strips to belly in on since you will be deadsticking anyway,,on the small models the wheels just tend to grab the grass and flip the front end into the ground, so unless your flying off tarmac dont bother trying to take off without a hand launch

layback2

My Feedback: (12)

Very intersting subject all responces were as good as it gets i should have used the packing tape to strenghen the wings but never did and had no problem i never thought any thing about makeing the plane lighter then they were after i was done building ace simple P51 from ace i had sanded so much it was lighter any way lol I think i would like to build the corsair and build my own wings from plans if anyone has any i could use or a copy and use my ap wasp .051 or one of my cox .09s even build the complete plane

Jcurrier

Ok, here is the ME109 pre-covering. I figured i would post these first so you could get an idea of how i bashed.

1.) The wings are sheathed with 1/32" balsa with both a balsa leading and trailing edge. Lightening holes were added and reduced the weight of the weight of the wing equal to the additional weight of sheathing.. weight gain was a wash. I also added two 1/16" ply spars in slits at the wing root to strengthen which was easier to hide in lieu of the tape or fiberglass. I used 1" ailerons in liew of the 3/4" supplied in the kit and attached them with robar point hinges.

2.) Used my own balsa for entire kit in lieu of the balsa supplied. Added lightening holes in most surfaces. Weight savings was considerable.

3.) Broke down and bought a .061 norvel wth throttle and then added a 2 oz epoxy bottle fuel tank with vent out the top deck cut to catch the prop wash for pressure. 2oz tank gave me 17 minutes at full throttle on bench after breaking in the engine.

4.) Used 4 channels with spectrum 2.4gz receiver and micro servos. Battery is a 7.6V 2100mAh lipo with a standard park flyer ECM with the motor leads cut off to reduce voltage and all push pulls are carbon fiber. When compared to a standard servo with 72Hz reciever and ni-mh battery pack, weight savings was a little over 70 grams. Range is only about 1500 feet but the damn thing turns into a speck at around 500 feet so i think range is adequate.

5.) found out that i quickly ran out of room (felt like stuffing 5 pounds of sheesh-ka bobs into a 3 pound sack) so i omitted the pilot and threw the receiver up there instead.

total weight unfinished was 14-3/8 oz.

Jcurrier

Ok and here it is finally covered. I've included the picture i used from German 'Expert' Ace Hans-joachim Marseille. I'm not really goodat detail work so you could say it is stand off scale.. say about 3/4's of a mile stand off. The real plane was flown in north africa so it has a modified desert camoflage. Coating was monocote and ultracoat. I cut each piece of camoflage to allow a maximum of 1/8" overlap. Cross and swastika are decals from kit I used the monocote as a hinge for the elevator and rudder which also closed off the hing gap on these surfaces. I also ran the covering across the top hing gap on the ailerons to eliminate this gap as well.

Total weight covered came out to 15-7/8 oz... which is 1/8oz below the kit recommended of 16-18 oz. My buddy and I plan to fly it this weekend. I'll try to take pictures and post these to let you know how it flies. Until then good hunting.

One last item, i'm currently experimenting with diesel heads. Right now my next project is a 60-90 size Raven which i'm putting in an OS 60 FSR in with a diesle head. The OS60 with glow fuel will turn of course an 11x6 prop but is recommended to use a 12x10 through 16x6 prop with the diesel head. Yes, i wrote that right. The reason i bring this up is when i burn the .061 norvel glow head out i plan to put on a diesel head from Davis Diesel. They recommend using a prop range for a COX .049/.051 with the diesel head conversion of 7x4 at 12,000 rpm up to an 8x4 at 10,000 rpm with 1/2 the fuel consumption. I'll keep you posted on that as well.

Justin

fritzke

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Justin,
That looks really nice. Stay away from the Spitfires!
Dave

layback2

My Feedback: (12)

sweet looking plane i bet it would look great too if the covering was that trans clear you can see the wings holes nice job Jcurrier

somegeek

My Feedback: (2)

Wow - great looking bird!

That's a lot of Rx pack unless I am missing something?

somegeek

longdan

Yes, that is a lot of spark for this plane. You would get away with a battery that is 10-15% of this capacity.
Are you planning on running a brushless motor on it somewhere?

I used a 300 mAh NiMH on my simple P51 and I could fly it all day without worrying about it losing charge. After all, it only had to drive 2 servos.

Andrew

Very nicely done! The paint scheme really sets it off.

I agree with the other's comments about the battery capacity. You might consider a 2s 500 mah lipo -- it should save close to 3 oz. You can pick up one from [link=http://www.headsuprc.com/]Heads Up RC[/link] for about $14 with $2 shipping. It sounds like you have had quite a bit of experience with larger planes. On the 1/2A sized models, a couple of ounces can really change the wing loading and make the difference between a flinger and an zinger. If you can get this plane into the 13 to 13.5 weight range, you would have a real performer -- your structure weight is already quite good.

Jcurrier

Haha... ok, well to change out that battery will require damn near complete disassembly as knowing i would be tight on room i built it into the structure. That li-po was really light anyway so i doubt i'd save even an ounce. Besides, this way i can charge it in the spring and just fly it until the fall *smile*

On another note, i got my OS .60 fitted out with the diesel head and have run about 6 tanks of fuel through it. I have to tell you guys, i'm falling in love with diesels. Took me about an hour to get the mixture and compression setting right and now all i have to do is fill the tank, open the throttle and flip the prop and it starts right up. No glow plugs or plug chargers... just flip the prop. I can also get it to idle so slow that i can darn near see the blades of the prop spinning. I clocked it at low idle at 140rpm and it heald really steady. Also, with my OS.60 on a 10oz tank turning a 14x6 prop i'm getting 8800 to 8900 rpm full throttle and it will run for about 25 minutes. Since my current Norvel .061 will run for about 17 minutes on a 2 ounce tank with glow, i figure i can convert it to a diesel and fly for about 30 minutes each run... NOW you see why i have a big battery!

Andrew

HaHa -- I guess that size really does matter!!

Since you're a self-professed nerd, check the posts by 1705493-AndyW -- he's one of the diesel guys around here and has converted a number of the smaller engines. The only downside to the conversion is that it can sometimes be hard on rods and crankpins. With NORVEL gone, replacement cranks are difficult to find.

An alternative to the existing NORVEL glow head is the Galbreath head/NELSON plug combination -- they usually work as well or better than the standard head and will fit the NORVEL .049, NORVEL .061, COX .049 and AP Wasp .061 . These are available from Larry Driskill at [link=http://www.kittingittogether.com/]Kitting It Together[/link]. Larry is a small engine guy and I've had excellent dealings with him.

I expect that the AP Wasp plug will also fit since it is a knockoff of the NORVEL -- I have an extra Wasp plug, but just have not tried it. The WASP head shims are quite poor, however. I recently bought several packs of gaskets from Lite Machines and the quality looks to be very good -- uniform size, clean edges and consistent width.

somegeek

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That's about a 3.5oz pack? Could go with a 700mAh NiMH pack and shave 1.5oz at least. That's almost 10% of your current AUW.

somegeek