Jim Flannigan

Great News!

The Greatplanes Reflection Flat-outs biplane is currently being shipped! I know we have all waited a long time to get these but the wait will be worth it!

Greg Ward (the designer) and myself (co-developer) want to make sure everyone has a chance to get the proper setup and benefit from all our experience with this incredible airplane.

Keep in mind that the airplane is symmetrical and the equipment needs to be installed with the same thought.

Photos will follow and please ask all the questions you can think of in building the Reflection.


Jim

aeroanalysis

Confirmed!!! Finally! Woo HOO!!!

Stock Number Product Description Stock Status/Quantity Extended Price
The following items shipped from Champaign, Illinois
TOWZ2200 TOWER SPECIAL OFFERS-A 1 $.00
LXJYS1 Great Planes Reflection FlatOuts Bipe 3D Park Flyer ARF 1 $39.99
Order Summary In-Stock Subtotal:
UPS GROUND - COMMERCIAL:
Total Current Charges: $ 39.99
$ 7.99
$ 47.98
This amount has been charged to your credit card.

GWinOKC

The day has finally arrived. Reflection biplanes are being shipped as we speak... approx 4600 are on their way to hobby shops all over. Jim and I will be active on this thread to help people with any issues or help they may need. As you are aware by now of Sean McMurtry and the success he has had with this plane in competition. Jim and i are offering to share the results of our research and the "set-up" information for all who are interested. As a designer I was quite lucky to have Jim, Sean, and Mike McMurtry to help in developing this plane and making it the winner that it has become and we look forward to sharing the info that we have gained throughout this process.

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Too bad you conviently edited your CC number out of that post, or I could have ordered one too.

JK.

Mine's on order too. Hopefully its worth the wait.

aeroanalysis

Yeah, I should have left in the order date in, if it was there. I don't even remember how long ago I ordered, but it's been months. I'll post here when it arrives.

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Does anyone know how the wings are reinforced?

Is it carbon webbing (Tensor4D style) or kevlar thread (like the Nikitis Rebel, PopFlyer Pitts) or some new idea?

Trisquire

I see carbon bracing on the production version. The prototype (Havoc) used kevlar thread.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_23...tm.htm#2319965

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Got mine at my LHS last night!
It'll be good to have the guys who designed it here for advice![8D]

I don't have a Rimfire, but I do have an extra EssKay 400XT which (according to the specs ) is purty close.
I have a Kokam 640 and a TP 900 (both 3 cells ) but need an ESC...

Gonna use HS-55's and probably a GWS pico 4 ch. rx. 'cause I usually fly solo anyway...(this is gonna be my new night-time flyin' in the parking lot airplane )

Hey Greg and Jim...
How about the newer versions of the 8A GP ESC's? Will they handle an 11A burst for 5 sec. or so?

aeroanalysis

What a frickin' joke! What's the point of ordering the thing way in advance if the LHS has it in stock first!!!

3DNobody

I guess that is an advantage of supporting your LHS...

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Because if you dont, you might not get one.

Most of the time as soon as the hobby shops get them....poof they're gone the same day, sometimes within hours. At least they are here. So if you put your name on the list, at least your guarenteed to get one.

And with how things have been going lately, the huge vendors like horizon, and others have been running out of these things fast. They said they shipped 4600....thats not enough. That means that only 4600 people are going to get one. Once those 4600 are gone...then its back to the waiting list for more to be made at the factory. There are probably 30,000 pilots wanting one. I know of a couple of pilots here that ordered multiples of them, and a few that ordered them, and plan on taking them overseas.

These foamies are HOT. Right now demand is far exceeding supply.

One of the local hobby shops here sold about 80 E-flite Blade helicopters in a matter of two weeks. I normally visit the hobby shop everyday right after the UPS man arrives,during my lunch hour, so I can grab what I need before its gone.

A couple of days ago, I walked in, and found a brand new balsa built up plane. It had just arrived, and the shop owner hadnt even had a chance to unpack it yet or stick a price tag on it....I bought it. It was the only one he got, and I knew it would be gone in a matter of hours if I didnt get it then....who knows when more would come in, and from what I understand ...he tried to order more after I bought mine....guess what....out of stock. He also order'd 10 new recievers....he's got one left.

Its insane, this stuff is so popular right now its like a toys-r-us at christmas time everyday at my local hobby shop.

3DNobody

It is just a different scene here.

My LHS has had several of the Flatanas and Cap 580s on the shelf since they came out. After a few weeks the owner offerd to sell me one at his cost b/c he knew that I would get it together and out to the field for a good showing. He still has them on the shelf even after selling a few. I have not talked with them this week, but I'll bet he has a reflection or two on the shelf.

He had a Blade CP up until 2 weeks ago and has spares for them in stock now also. I wouldn't call us a small town, but things sure aren't moving as fast off the shelf as where you are at. That just sounds crazy. Obviously from my pesrpective, I did not realize that they were having such a supply problem. (with the flatouts)

I guess we should try and get this thing back on topic now.

GWinOKC

To answer your question about the 8 amp speed control... i have seen it used with the rimfire motor spinning a 9x3.8 prop and things worked well. We (Jim and I) have a deal with CC and have only used their speed controls to date. During development the other gear was not available so all of our testing was done with CC 10's and AXI 2208/34 w/ 10x4.7 on 2 cell and 10x3.8 on 3 cell packs.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Thanks Greg...I think I'll give one of those 12A "Silver Series" ESC's (GP ) a go when I get ready for it...
(I'm finishing my Showtime first )

Guys...I put my order in at my LHS (Brennan's ) back in early June, after I saw it in Tower Talk.
The big brown airplane truck usually arrives at the HS at around 2 o'clock...He called me and told me it was finally here, and I was there shortly after dinner that evening

Whenever I need/want something all I gotta do is ask Tom, and he orders it for me, and a few days (usually ) later it magically arrives...
Gotta support your LHS, especially if it's as good a one as mine!

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Ive been using that little "electrifly" 8A ESC with a rimfire for a while now. It works fine. Ive also been running the APC 9x3.8 on a 3cell lipo. It works fine. I dont know how it does it, because I know that motor is pulling more than 8A.

The only problem Ive had, is that I cant get it to run on a 2 cell lipo. It will rev up, and then cut off within seconds. Ive tried programming it for a 2 cell like the manual tells you, but it wont take the programming for some reason.

One of my friends got impatient waiting for the reflection, and scratch built a copy of it. I flew it the other night. It will do rolling circles with no rudder or elevator input. You just point the nose up a tad, adjust throttle to hold it there, and then jam full right aileron in it, and it will start rolling, and the torque of the motor will pull it around in a circle. Craziest thing Ive ever seen. He was doing full aileron deflection rolling circles with the wingtips sweeping about 3" off the deck inside our local gym, and he wasnt touching rudder or elevator.

GWinOKC

Rolling circles with no other input than ailerons happened to be one of the first things that Jim discovered with his first prototype. The key with this symmetrical aircraft is to get the CG in the right place. We set the plane up to fly absolutely neutral while upright and inverted at about 1/2 throttle. If the plane is straight it will maintain altitude and heading while upright, inverted and on either knife edge with no input. When set up this way your may, at first feel like the airplane is flying a little strange...(Adverse yaw) but if you will stick with it for a day of flying you will soon learn to love the way it flies and does not only precision aerobatics but violent 3d too! A key to almost effortless knife edge loops and 0, Zip, Zillch, notta coupling has everything to do with getting your aileron droop (or the lack of it) at zero while the plane is flying... not resting on a table. Properly set up i can do as many as 3 or 4 knife edge loops without any other input than rudder.

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

How were you guys getting the ailerons set right, for the knife-edge loops. That one of the things I didnt like, It seemed like it had TONS of aileron to rudder coupling. You'd key a bunch of rudder, and it would dip a wing and just about snap roll. I figured it was something set wrong vs aerodynamics thing, but how do you set the ailerons correctly? or are you just adding ail-rud mixing in the radio?

GWinOKC

We are flying with no mix at all. Two key thing come to mind... actually three. The motor thrust must be at zero measured. No down and no right. the aileron linkages typically have a minute amount of slop so i set mine up to be straight while laying the airplane on its side. There should be equal amounts of up and down deflection (slop) while in this state. Third and most important is to have good aircraft balance while hanging from the prop. If you will hang the airplane from the prop-shaft with a string and use a door frame or corner wall line... (anything that is very true to verticle) using this sight-line make sure that your equipment positioning and placement will create a situation that allows the fuselage to hang straight up and down or Plumb as it were. If set up this way and Thrust, balance and aileron droop are at zero, the plane will actually torque roll as many as 3 to 5 revs without corrections and knife edge loops are a snap. Flying thru knife edge loops is much different than 3d knife edge loops because of the torque effect while doing violent 3d knife edge walls and loops.

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Cool, thanks for the tips.

I just got my Reflection. Gonna build it tonight. Got the rimfire all ready to go..

Someone told me that the included servo arms wont fit Bluebird servos? Is this so, or were they mistaken?

airmcn_3

My Feedback: (9)

Hey Buddy, My suggestion to you is dont use Blue bird servos, The reflection is a bird that will verry much satisfy your 3D needs, but in order to do so it is a must to have the best centering servos you can get. As Greg stated, you need to get rid of all slop, this includes good centering servos, The pico servos and the baby Futaba servos are prime for this bird, Unfortunatly with all my experience with Blue Bird servos, out of 10 I have had maybe 3 that centered OK. Not well but OK. They are great little, and light servos but not good for a bird of this stature. Agian I stress Good centering servos. I am just telling you this from probably 5 flight hrs of Reflection airtime. Good luck with it they are a blast! Take Care Chris

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Hmmmm. Ive had really good experiences with the little bluebird 306 ballbearing servos, and the 371's are even better.

Ill have to go buy some futaba servos...bummer. I guess I wont get to fly it for a while, cant afford to go buy more servos.

Trisquire

Bryan,

Why not improvise? Cyano the Reflection servo arms to the Blue Bird servo arms. Wrap with thread and saturate with more cyano. Maybe not the slickest solution, but it should work.

I'm in the same boat. I have FMA PS-20s.

Jim Flannigan

Hey Bryan,
Great suggestion to help get them flying.
At first we were trying all kinds of things to get maximum throws and we did exactly as you described to the servos we were using.

This is the setup that I have used with great success:
GWS pico servos on the elevator and rudder
Hitec hs-55 on the ailerons
CC Phoenix 10 speed controller.
AXI 2208/34 motor
And 3 cell 830mah LIpoly's
FMA M5 receiver (dual conversion) only 1/3rd ounce.

Keep in mind that there are many acceptable combinations of equipment. Good servo's
I know the gws servo's are not the best but they are consistent and seem to get better with age. Some of mine are over 4 years old.


Let's get some built and flying!

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I think I am going to just wait until I can get some Hitec servos. Im thinking about using the HS-56 servos. High speed, and plenty of torque. Plus hitec makes some really good servos, and they center EXTREMELY well.

Gonna be a while, I dont have money for them now, but Im patient. It will be worth the wait.

About the Reflection Build.

I built mine last night. I know why they put this build question thread on here. A beginner will probably have a rough time building it, Its a little tricky. Read the instructions throughly, and dry fit EVERYTHING before gluing in place. THIS IS SUPER IMPORTANT. Although I didnt have any problems, I can see where it would be really easy to glue something in backwards.

Once its built its AWESOME. Its the first foamy biplane Ive seen that actually had a really stiff and rigid fuselage to wing joining. Really good construction. No flex in the joint. A severe problem with most other biplanes Ive built.

The no-tape hinging system is a little complicated, but once built, its FAR superior to tape hinges. Really smooth, and NO slop. The propriatary Z-bend connection system is also no slop. Really smooth travel on the surfaces, and precise.

Awesome plane.

Anyway, heres some pics of mine

3DNobody

Looks great!

After reading the content of this thread, I am convinced that this needs to by my next plane. I have been wanting to try a bipe but keep hearing horror stories about bad coupling and quirky flying. This thing appears to be the business.

I have built, flown, and finally destroyed the Cap 580. I loved the way that thing flew. I agree that the hinge system is super smooth when put together right. Building the Cap light (mine was 8oz RTF) seemed to help a lot. I want to do the same for the Reflection. Do you guys feel that the Park 370 1360Kv with a 2- cell would have enough punch for the Reflection? I have plenty of small 2-cells for my shocky Yak, but don't want to have to buy a bunch of new small 3-cells.

Thanks!