Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

I didn't know why some of the top motorheads don't prefer the OS
Max engines....I found out for myself. It's the cheap nickel plating in
the cylinders. I just had a nickel liner failure in a .61RF motor. OS says
it's not a problem.

The liner/piston assy. is $114.99....to me, that's a problem. I will NOT pay
the price of a new lawnmower for 10 bucks worth of parts.

The newer OS engines are INFERIOR to all other brands with chrome liners,
that never wear out....plain and simple....and are not worth the extra money
you have to pay for them....I wonder how much they saved per unit plating
with nickel rather than the industry standard chrome....two cents per engine ?

....this coming from a life long OS user....me. Now I'm an ex-user. [sm=thumbdown.gif]

Any other Guys have the same sad story ? []

Dave. []

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

I at one time was running allmost 20 OS engines in planes.

Now I run 2... an OS 15 LA in a Lazy Bee and an OS 91 Surpass in an Astro Hog.

I wont buy a new OS engine, since there are SO many other brands that cost less and perform as good or better.

OS no longer has the market like they did 20 years ago for quality engines...

Its not like there arent any other choices - so dont buy another OS... I know I wont.

AJC

mstroh3961

My Feedback: (4)

Dave, O MY what a mess! How long did this take to happen?

RaceCity

Geez Dave.....OUCH!!!!!!


This is why I like ringed/lapped engines. "Steel doesn't peel"

'Race

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

As soon as I get finished installing these Magnum .40's in my Twin Star
I'll yank out that junk liner, and take a better pic. The black part is the
shiny nickel, and the part that looks like mud....is the brass. [X(]

I e-mailed Hobby Services, and sent them this pic....they offered nothing,
didn't even ask for any particulars. []

wldcwbypilot

Replace it with magnum parts. Magnum is a very precise clone of the OS so Is Thunder Tiger. A OS 91 Four Stroke Carburettor is $70.99 and a Magnum 91 Four Stroke is about $25.00 to $30.00 and is identical, comes from the same source factory in China. Same for Thunder Tiger, I have used their need valves on OS and vice versa.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I've had experience with OS engines from as far back as the 60's when my first one
was an OS Max 60 Gold Head. I've never thought OS engines had as much bang
for the buck as some other engines do. You had to spend as much to get them to
perform as the engine cost in the first place. They seem to have a good record and
reputation with a lot of the pattern fliers but I don't want another one.


tommy s

FrankC29

I don't know...I've had nothing but beautiful performance and unmatched reliability and ease of breakin/tuning for my 25FX's, .46FX's, and my 1.60FX. I can't say the same for my TT.46, which is a great engine but a little more work on the needle, and it eats bearing even though I use after run. The Tower .46 wouldn't shut down, same for the GMS. My Magnum .28 ran great, that is, after I took it apart and put it back together with RTV and some fuel tubing on the needle. Before I did that it was a mess. I won't even talk about my MDS experiences. My Norvels all make great power, but they are finicky...very finicky. My point is, I own and run quite a few different brands of 2-stroke engines covering a range of sizes. My OS engine always run great right out of the box, even that weak vibrating .40LA. The only other engine that I have that I can say the same about is my Tower .75. Now THERE is some serious bang for the buck. I know folks have had problems with OS, I'm just relating my personal experience.

stuk_at_work

My Feedback: (111)

Back in October I had a liner go bad on a 40 FX, after running it for about a year. I bought that one "new" (before I joined RCU ), so of course I did not have a legitimate "authorized dealer" receipt. I was just going to keep it for spares, when another club member suggested I send it in to Hobby Services anyway. As you pointed out, it was hard to justify a rebuild based on the cost of the replacement parts from O.S. Engines.

Not only did they replace the piston/liner/connecting rod, but they also replaced the bearings (collateral damage?) , all at no charge! Dave, did they reject your claim out of hand, or did they say they would have to physically look at the engine first?

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

Stu, they didn't say squat....well, here's their e-mails....

(Mine)...."....I have an OS .61 RF that I've been running in a plane for awhile.
This Sun. the compression went away completely. The liner had
peeled, big time. I have a spare liner and piston assy., I got with
a different engine (used parts) I was going to put in, but it's showing
brass as well. (shot)

Can you replace the bad parts ? Is the stuff still available ? I would
sure hate to have to chuck the engine....it was a wonderful engine."

Lemme know....thanks,
Dave.
__________________________________________________
(Theirs)...."Thank you for your Email.

Howdy. The ABC piston/cylinder assembly for the O.S. Max .61 RF is
still available. Here's the stock number and suggested retail price:

OSMG4945 27803000 CYL & PSTN 61RF ABC $114.99

These parts can be ordered through any hobby retailer who sells O.S.
Max engines and accessories.

We hope you find this information helpful."
__________________________________________________ _____
(Mine)...."YIKES....I was under the assumption that OS was still replacing the
defective ABN liners under warrantee."

Dave.
__________________________________________________ ______
(Theirs)...." Thank you for your Email.

The O.S. Max .61 RF went out of production in 1996, and was never known
to have any particular difficulty with the plating of the liners. O.S.
will likely discontinue any remaining parts production for that engine
in the next year, if they haven't already done so."

We hope you find this information helpful. __________________________________________________ ____
Mine)...."This is not a problem ? OS doesn't have a problem with peeling
nickel plated liners ? ....and I sent the same picture as above.
__________________________________________________ ____
I put the engine in the plane NIB about a year and a half ago. (or so)

Someone remind me to send them a thank-you card....

....for all "the helpful information."

Dave. []





We hope you find this information helpful.

dennis

My Feedback: (90)

Lets clarify that. At the time of OS dominance in pattern Dave Brown was working for World Engines in Ohio. Now you know that he had access to all the best parts that you could get and his were certainly not off the shelf motors, the same as any top competator of the day.
Mind you that wasn't put into the ads that any motor manufacturer had running at the time.
As to OS's current liner situation, well it isn't the first time that they have made a major blunder and in typical Japanese protocol they simply ignore it and usually they would introduce a newer model with a fix.
They arn't able to this time as I understand that they really are in the same situation as most American motor manufacturers in that Chroming is a real problem with EPA compliance. Seems that you really have a problem with heavy metal disposal and no one really wants chromium cyanide gas being emmited in their neighborhood.
The Asian rim motors are still being chromed simply because of the lack of any regulations restricting the process. Give them enough years and They will also stop doing it.
Just remember that with an ABC motor it is really either coming in or wearing out, It never stays at it's running peak very long . a ringed abc is a better deal and even the old iron/steel motors properly broken in would last almost forever with decent care.
But to concur with the origional intent of theis thread there are certainly a lot better motors available then the current OS line up

RaceCity

Excellent post Dennis.

My OS's (non abc/abn) are superb engines. Zero defects, and I have NOT ONCE had to spend
a single penny to "get it to run right". This is in contrast to the cheap chinese engines which however
well they seem to run, often put the user in a position of being an unpaid member of the R&D staff of the
manufacturer, but this is "acceptable".

Whatever.

Buy American.

'Race

ksechler

Man Dave, this is a pretty strong post from someone that is a "moderator". Unfortunately, it's pretty short on facts, too. How many hours do you have on the engine? What was the application? What was the fuel? How did you prop it? For all I know you could have been using the thing with 40% nitro fully cowled and baked it to death.

I'm not saying that you did these things, but I think you should take a step back and look at the whole thing a little more objectively before you start bashing OS. Their products have provided me with hours of trouble free enjoyment and I don't like to see them get bashed without some factual data.

ShempHoward

My Feedback: (3)

Dave - If you recall we spoke some time ago about the peeling issues I personally experienced with several OS engines. You seemed to be somewhat in disbelief of my experience but after me explaining what happened I think you changed your mind somewhat. One of the engines I had mentioned and seen peel was a friends 61RF so yours peeling is no surprise to me. Perhaps it went lean inadvertently on and off over time which it seems is all it takes as OS has been using nickel since the middle of the FSR period as we discussed previously. I would like to think that their newer ABL system is more tolerant of situations that previously caused peeling in the past but I am not 100% convinced yet that this will be the case. As your engine is way out of production I would not expect them to do anything other than refer you to buying new parts for yourself which seems somewhat unfair but how long can you realistically expect for any company to cover warranty work on any engine??

Its odd that Thunder Tiger's (and other makes as well) ABN liners seem to hold up well and have never seen or heard of one of them ever peeling which is puzzling at the very least. Its too bad there is no clone piston/liner you can buy to replace the one that is bad. I did have some piston/liner replacements for the 61 RF's and other vintage 61's but sold them off at around $50 a set some time ago. Even though they were really ABN they were still labeled ABC which I have alway felt was very misleading.

I wonder if Just Engines Ltd. might have something more affordable and durable
as a solution? Too bad George Aldrich is not around any longer as he offered a true chroming process for peeled OS engines and had processed something well over 400 OS peelers, according to his remarks on RCO, prior to hs untimely death and at $50-60 per engine it was truly a bargain with quality workmanship.
Performance Specialties, I believe, might also still stock the piston/liner you need at a price competitve with Tower only theirs will be true ABC (or even possibly AAC as well) and guaranteed not to peel unlike the stock OS replacement parts.

I am still a fan of OS engines although not the die hard I once was primarily because of the peeling problems I had, the changes made from FP to LA and lastly the seemingly ubiquitous problems with the 91FX. I do own other brands (Saito, Irvine and Norvel) now.

I know that OS Japan was fully aware of the FX peeling problems but I can't help but wonder about their corporate directions and choices over the years. Is it unreasonable to think that the USA is their single largest market? If so then why would they allow this market, and others as well, to be hurt so severely by
the above mentioned problems? They must be short sighted as its obvious they have repeatedly shot themselves in the foot a few times over the last 10 years or so and continue to experience declining market share as other engine companies move into the marketplace and get a foot hold. I wonder how this sits with their parent company - Futaba?

HondaCRX

os is made in japan not china and magnums are just copies

RaceCity

I just can't buy into the "Down with OS" thinking.

You spends your money...you takes your chances.

Ask this though...what has changed more? OS or the customer base?

How many guys in YOUR club would have survived a single week in this hobby back
25 or 30 years ago. Back when you alone were responsible for the outcome of
your efforts?

The doors have been opened to the "consumer"...not the modeler.

Expect the unexpected.

'Race

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

Shemp....

....OK, you were the guy that asked me about the RF liner....I couldn't
think of who it was. Remember how I stuck up for OS....and darned
near call "BS" on you ??? See if you can find that post, please. I"m not a
"Sunday sailer" .....

Dave.

dennis

My Feedback: (90)

Interesting in that I was modelling 50 years ago and then as today you bought what you thought was the best that you could afford and went with it. Remember it didn't take very long for the word to get out that a partucular motor was 'crap' and it fell by the wayside. Same with kits.
It's just that today there are so many people in the hobby and communication is so fast that you have to assimilate a lot more data to filter out the nonsense and get to the facts

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

Lemme start from the top....but let me say that I'm not an old OS
basher....I'm a new one....

mstroh3961 ....Marc...3 flights, of about a minute each. The thing ran perfect
for about 2 years, then took a dump ! It started up fine, as usual....but just
a minute into the flight it died....right overhead....it sounded like it ran out of
gas. I figured that the plug went....and rather than start screwing with everything,
carb and such....I put a new plug in it. Again, started right up....sounded fine.
I opened the needle 3 clicks just for the heck of it....a minute later....dies again
in flight.

Now I'm starting to wonder. I start it up again....looks good....I"m checking
for bubbles....nothing. I let it warm up, and open it up....I need to get a good
setting on it to see what the hay. I set the needle as rich as I could (too rich)
and still have it into a full 2 cycle run....up....a minute later, dies again.

One of the fellas said it sounded kinda wierd to him....but it sounded Ok to me.
I pick the plane up....it is devoid of compression. We thought the rod had broken,
because there was no resistance at all. I even pulled the plug, and put an allen
wrench into the bore, and turned it over. The piston was going up and down.

It should be said at this time that there was some "black" in the oil residue for
some time, but most ringless engines I've seen....do spew some black.

I pulled the head....and sadly the engine had self destructed....the cylinder
bore was wiped out. I had not seen this happen before. Like I said.... the engine
was new to me....and truthfully....I had no idea when the engines were
manufactured, and I didn't know the engines had the inferior nickel plating.

I don't think anyone can argue....at this point, that the OS plating is not inferior.

The engine never ran on anything but PowerMaster 15% sport fuel, and never
had a lean run in it's life. It had the recommended 12-8 prop, and turned 11,400
....just what Macs said it should with his pipe.

This motor was second on my favorites list....right behind my 60 FSR's. I guess
the liner just wore through the plating....and it was a gonner. []

Dave.

downunder

George also added that of the hundreds of peelers only ONE was from a CL flyer. He put this down to the fact that CL guys regularly use much more oil (with castor) and recommended that 22% oil be used in the OS nickle plated liners.

AirGar

My Feedback: (7)

My Ol' buddy FlyBoy run a motor too lean???? Not a chance in hell.

He NEVER gets the full potential of any motor due to his stubborn resistance to wind'em up! ....now me on the other hand.....I've blown'em all up!! LOL

I don't know if I would agree with him on expecting OS to warranty a motor that has been out of production since '96, however, I do understand Dave's frustration over the nickel going away on a motor, run like he runs his, and OS's/Hobby Services not offering any "break" at all.

The last OS motor I bought was the 91FX, and that was, by far, the most over rated motor on the market. Hell, I tried to "blow it up", but I couldn't get it turn any R's. I still have a couple that I run, but like some of you have said...there are way too many other motor Mfg's out there that are producing the same, if not better motors than OS, and very often at a lot less moola. Until they get their &%@# together, I'll buy something else.

Sad thing is, they ignore any/all problems with respect to customer relations.

My suggestion to you Dave.....throw that thing in the trash, buy a Jett 90. At least you'll know when you run that "sloppy rich" like you do, it will still out perform any OS of the same displacement. HA HA

Gary

HondaCRX

what kind of conditions were you flying in, sand may have gotten into the engine

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

That's just about the same thing I said to Shemp a few months ago.
I backed OS with blind faith....almost to a fault....and making a fool out of
myself sticking up for the marque in the process. I've been flying them for
about 30 years....and I also wondered how the other fellas that had failures
had somehow tortured the engines to death. Even with proper care and feeding
the nickel will not hold up.

Dave.

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

How's this for a trashed liner ?

Check the carbon build-up on the piston....none.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

CeRviX:

Dave and I talked about this failure a few days ago on the phone.

Yes, it is entirely possible he picked up one small grain of sand and nicked the nickel. And nickel plate, with any surface fault, will peel in a heartbeat. With chrome plating, an edge will break without any bend, but nickel will bend a little before it fractures. Then, when the poiston comes by again another chunk is torn away leaving another lip bent up, and the plating has all gone away in a fraction of a second. Chrome will accept surface damage without leaving the lip, so it is far more resistant to peeling. And much better suited to our engines running with open intakes, nothing to keep the sand and grit out of the engine.

So, with a chromed sleeve you can suck up some grit, and while you might lose a little power, you are still flying. With a nickel liner it's all over.

Bill.