Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge
Apaw. Find where in the FAA act that gave the FAA where the FAA has authourity over anything other than navigable airspace. If anyone can find that I would shut up. I too have a pilot certificate, and you are simply quoting what FAA will tell you. But find it in writing.
Sport, I’ll make two bets; one is you are quite incorrect and two is you won’t. Of course this may get deleted as a “personal attack” as another post did; although in truth its purpose is to counter your insistence on touting misinformation about a subject matter you have obviously long been out of touch with.
You insist on throwing out the FAA Act (1958) as your sole word on FAA authority. Every government agency promulgates rules and/or regulations as provided in their purpose as enacted by Congress. The FAA Act created the agency (administration); however, it is not the only one and all encompassing final word on authority as you describe it. However, there is also much more to it than that and you should read it as it makes for an informative history lesson.
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Airspace, whether controlled or not and whether it is navigable or not, for use by civil (and military) aircraft which are operated by appropriately rated/certificated pilots, is defined/described under Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 71. In essence, when not associated with an airport, an airway, an instrument approach segment or extension, special use, restricted use, a military operations area, or a temporary flight restricted area, that airspace is uncontrolled below 1200 feet above ground level (agl). That does not mean it is not “navigable airspace” as you assert. It is navigable because certain aircraft operations are permitted below 1200 feet agl, in fact it is permitted below 1000 feet agl as described in 14 CFR Part 91 (91.119) as long as it does not cause undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
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14 CFR Part 91, with few exceptions, are the “operating” rules that govern the operation of aircraft within the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">United States</st1lace></st1:country-region>. Yet it is not even as simple as that. As for the Statue of Liberty, the area is in[/b] the New York Class B airspace designated the “Hudson River and East River Exclusion” The rules for operating an aircraft within it are found in 14 CFR 93, Subpart W.
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You can call the airspace whatever you want wherever you want, there are still rules with respect to what, where, when, and how an aircraft may be operated in that airspace; regardless of whether it is navigable or not. Airspace may be uncontrolled, granted it may even by non-navigable due to obstructions (a windmill farm comes to mind); however that alone does not prevent an individual from having his/her moment of fame in doing what they choose to do. However, if the individual act resulted in an accident, incident, or was reported by the public then most likely an investigation would result and an enforcement sanction pursued if any of that act were contrary to any applicable CFR. That sanction is the part that is open to or subject to interpretation, if that enforcement action goes to legal and potentially results in a certificate action.
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That is perhaps no different from the individual who speeds or drives carelessly and causes an accident. There is typically an ensuing investigation likely resulting in civil actions by the local or state police and the persons injured or whose property was damaged. As the old saying goes, regardless of what agency/administration promulgates it, rules are usually written in the blood of our friends, our parents, our siblings, or worse our sons and daughters.
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As for what happened in NYC, regardless of whether you are pro or con with regard to what the individual did, do you really believe that his actions helped in the least way what is already a difficult proposition with respect to our hobby/sport? Is it any different than a foreigner (or anyone for that matter) coming here and spitting in your face? Yes, I’ve read the thread that he started and he is spitting in your face. Aside from all the drama that has already been discussed, what did it prove? What technical, skillful, scientific, or simple nonsensical achievement was accomplished? It does not take much thought to extract what the underlying notion/motive likely was.
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There are a few thread participants within that I believe understand this and whatever ramifications modeling suffers as a result of pending regulations. My posts have always been in an attempt to point misdirected information in the right, or more right, direction. Since resumes seem to matter; my concern does stem from more than reading threads or blogs on the matter. It comes from 35 plus years in modeling, it comes from 30 years in full scale aviation from the ATP level to the new Sport Pilot level, it comes from 28 active years as an EAA and AOPA member, it comes from an education obtained at ERAU, and it comes from recent participation in sUAS at the FAA regional level.
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We are granted an abundance of civil liberties in this country. My father was a Marine and he reminded me once that our interpretation of these abundant liberties extend only to the tips of our toes and to be careful not to step on some else’s toes. I suppose living and participating in a society like ours is very much like the old Rubic’s cube; it’s frustrating and seemingly impossible at times. Save for the overburdening of governments (local and federal) eventually it gets much less difficult once you know what steps to take.
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hook
Brad
Because a baseball is not an aircraft. First sentence of section 307 (c) limits the authority to ''flight of aircraft''. Our models do fit the definition of ''aircraft''.
Brad
You are getting into too much detail. You said that the exclusion area was under an overlying Class B area. You said it is an exclusion area, so it is not a normal Class B area. Here is the FAA description.
We could go on and on about what navigable airspace is, you seem to think it has something to do with controlled airspace as you keep bringing up airspace class. But that is besides the point, lets forget the definition for now.
However this is actually off topic. The aircraft are not supposed to get close to the bridge, buildings or surface area. The model appeared to be in that area the full scale plane is not. So I don't see a problem with safety, unless the model was flying well into the areas the full scale plane's should be.
I admit I am not familiar with the area. There may have been a violation when the model passed across helicopter routes for example. I did not consult any air maps.
With goverment in our face so much anymore, Why do people do such stupid stunts and then post them on utube? I had run across one where they were shooting at a rc plane not even caring what or who was on the other side of the river! I know this is a hobby that is easier to get into then ever before with ARF's and such, but it seems like its starting to attract not just the guys that love the hobby for what it has always been but allot of stupid folks that do really stupid things with RC and then post thier stupidity online! Its the War-birds over the Rockies event and stuff like that I like to do. But and as I said before I believe that most of us follow AMA rules and club rules and just plain ole common sence! But what are we to do about stupid?
Get on here an waste countless 1's an 0's talking about it
When I first looked over at the other forum a coupla days ago the guy that did this had 104 pages on it. Today there is now 209 pages with over 10,000 replys. That has to be some sort of record I'd think
A baseball is just a Hand Launched Glider
of horrible design and terrible efficiency[8D]
Section 101 (29) “Navigable airspace” means airspace above the minimumaltitudes of flight prescribed by regulations issued under this Act,
and shall include airspace needed to
OK, show me where the FAA or NTSB was called to action for a model airplane crash. There is also the issue of commercial aviation that we have discussed. The need for inter state commerce, but not intrastate commerce.
At that time I'm absolutely certain you will experience an alteration of veiwpoint. As for the NTSB, they are currently investigating several incidents involving the flight of model aircraft. There may have already been such instances but I don't have the time to research the NTSB incident database.
Hook,
You are getting into too much detail. You said that the exclusion area was under an overlying Class B area. You said it is an exclusion area, so it is not a normal Class B area. Here is the FAA description.
We could go on and on about what navigable airspace is, you seem to think it has something to do with controlled airspace as you keep bringing up airspace class. But that is besides the point, lets forget the definition for now.
However this is actually off topic. The aircraft are not supposed to get close to the bridge, buildings or surface area. The model appeared to be in that area the full scale plane is not. So I don't see a problem with safety, unless the model was flying well into the areas the full scale plane's should be.
I admit I am not familiar with the area. There may have been a violation when the model passed across helicopter routes for example. I did not consult any air maps.
As they say, “the devil is in the details”, which are necessary for obvious enough reasons; and yes, it is an “exclusion” within[/b] that designated space. It can be included (read exclusion removed) any time ATC/ATO decides to do so.
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We could.
Actually you have persisted with the “navigable” airspace drama in part from your understanding, or lack of, the 1958 Act and as can be found throughout RCU.
Seriously, are definitions to challenging for you to accept? In any case, definitions aside, a box is still a box and pigs really don’t fly; although they have been said to have red lips….
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Yes, it is off topic, where you often tend to get things directed with your misunderstanding/misinformation. My apologies to the OP for doing that. Any aircraft operating in the exclusion could have potentially been in the path of the model. After all, the model had to transit the various areas to get from one point to the next. Aside from the very premise of “see and avoid”, the what if, and it is a big what if, is what the operator would/could have done if he/she lost one of the big Cs. I’ll leave you to define, I mean determine, what the big Cs are.
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Lastly, you dispute others valid points while admitting a lack of “familiarity” of the area or its charting. The jeopardy in that is unknowingly perpetuatingthat lack of “familiarity. Perhaps some reading on the material you often quote would go a long way in imparting on you a bit of subject matter knowledge.
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By the way, KE explained it well too, so did T.o.M, so did Horrace, so did L.C. and Toolman, etc, etc…..
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hook
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But what are we to do about stupid?
" Because of these kinds of actions the FAA WILL see a need for more stringent rules and use these kind of stunts as proof. When they do, ALL you supporters of these kind of stunts can take ALL the blame... "
While I agree with this, I am simply upset that I (and my flying field) may be a non-contributing casualty of the ignorance of these people and we will lose our flying rights along with all of the idiots that I have no control over. AMA members or not. I am simply a casual pilot that likes to build and fly. I would probably continue building even if I couldn't fly. Its scary when we have folks that need warning lables like the one attached, that can (unfortunately) vote, breed, and do things that effect us all. I certainly don't think that someone buying an "Air hog" at the local toy store is joining the AMA, or think about how their actions will impact the primary modeling community. They will trash that plane, and move on to the next cool thing in the store while those of us who really enjoy this hobby will suffer. This thread is bumming me out!
~D
JimDrew
Xtreme Power Systems
Yes, we are definitely opposed to this. I can guarantee that just one time anyone uses one of these setups to even drop a paintball on a federal facility, modeling as we know it in the U.S. will cease to exist.
If that's the case, then you have a serious problem with "government" itself ... you'd have to wonder just who are the terrorists, I think.
I showed this video to a number of people on a debating forum ... none of them modellers ... and the responses were universally positive. Nobody mentioned explosions or terrorism.
Is this furore just an example of a few people getting their "pants on their heads" ?
Is that a word native to England? If so, I have no idea what it means. oh yeah, pants on their head? do you mean panties in a wad?
Any other fields I go to is just to watch the planes fly, so I don't even need'em for that either.