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Old 12-07-2010, 06:15 AM
  #226  
hook57
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Apaw. Find where in the FAA act that gave the FAA where the FAA has authourity over anything other than navigable airspace. If anyone can find that I would shut up. I too have a pilot certificate, and you are simply quoting what FAA will tell you. But find it in writing.

Sport, I’ll make two bets; one is you are quite incorrect and two is you won’t. Of course this may get deleted as a “personal attack” as another post did; although in truth its purpose is to counter your insistence on touting misinformation about a subject matter you have obviously long been out of touch with.


You insist on throwing out the FAA Act (1958) as your sole word on FAA authority. Every government agency promulgates rules and/or regulations as provided in their purpose as enacted by Congress. The FAA Act created the agency (administration); however, it is not the only one and all encompassing final word on authority as you describe it. However, there is also much more to it than that and you should read it as it makes for an informative history lesson.

<o></o>

Airspace, whether controlled or not and whether it is navigable or not, for use by civil (and military) aircraft which are operated by appropriately rated/certificated pilots, is defined/described under Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 71. In essence, when not associated with an airport, an airway, an instrument approach segment or extension, special use, restricted use, a military operations area, or a temporary flight restricted area, that airspace is uncontrolled below 1200 feet above ground level (agl). That does not mean it is not “navigable airspace” as you assert. It is navigable because certain aircraft operations are permitted below 1200 feet agl, in fact it is permitted below 1000 feet agl as described in 14 CFR Part 91 (91.119) as long as it does not cause undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

<o></o>

14 CFR Part 91, with few exceptions, are the “operating” rules that govern the operation of aircraft within the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">United States</st1lace></st1:country-region>. Yet it is not even as simple as that. As for the Statue of Liberty, the area is in[/b] the New York Class B airspace designated the “Hudson River and East River Exclusion” The rules for operating an aircraft within it are found in 14 CFR 93, Subpart W.

<o></o>

You can call the airspace whatever you want wherever you want, there are still rules with respect to what, where, when, and how an aircraft may be operated in that airspace; regardless of whether it is navigable or not. Airspace may be uncontrolled, granted it may even by non-navigable due to obstructions (a windmill farm comes to mind); however that alone does not prevent an individual from having his/her moment of fame in doing what they choose to do. However, if the individual act resulted in an accident, incident, or was reported by the public then most likely an investigation would result and an enforcement sanction pursued if any of that act were contrary to any applicable CFR. That sanction is the part that is open to or subject to interpretation, if that enforcement action goes to legal and potentially results in a certificate action.

<o></o>

That is perhaps no different from the individual who speeds or drives carelessly and causes an accident. There is typically an ensuing investigation likely resulting in civil actions by the local or state police and the persons injured or whose property was damaged. As the old saying goes, regardless of what agency/administration promulgates it, rules are usually written in the blood of our friends, our parents, our siblings, or worse our sons and daughters.

<o></o>

As for what happened in NYC, regardless of whether you are pro or con with regard to what the individual did, do you really believe that his actions helped in the least way what is already a difficult proposition with respect to our hobby/sport? Is it any different than a foreigner (or anyone for that matter) coming here and spitting in your face? Yes, I’ve read the thread that he started and he is spitting in your face. Aside from all the drama that has already been discussed, what did it prove? What technical, skillful, scientific, or simple nonsensical achievement was accomplished? It does not take much thought to extract what the underlying notion/motive likely was.

<o></o>

There are a few thread participants within that I believe understand this and whatever ramifications modeling suffers as a result of pending regulations. My posts have always been in an attempt to point misdirected information in the right, or more right, direction. Since resumes seem to matter; my concern does stem from more than reading threads or blogs on the matter. It comes from 35 plus years in modeling, it comes from 30 years in full scale aviation from the ATP level to the new Sport Pilot level, it comes from 28 active years as an EAA and AOPA member, it comes from an education obtained at ERAU, and it comes from recent participation in sUAS at the FAA regional level.

<o></o>

We are granted an abundance of civil liberties in this country. My father was a Marine and he reminded me once that our interpretation of these abundant liberties extend only to the tips of our toes and to be careful not to step on some else’s toes. I suppose living and participating in a society like ours is very much like the old Rubic’s cube; it’s frustrating and seemingly impossible at times. Save for the overburdening of governments (local and federal) eventually it gets much less difficult once you know what steps to take.

<o></o>

hook

Old 12-07-2010, 06:34 AM
  #227  
The Toolman
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

You pretty much lost your rights when you signed up for a SS card an let them put a gold fringe around the flag
Old 12-07-2010, 06:37 AM
  #228  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Nobody has complained to the FAA when they get hit in the head by a baseball or any other flying object other than an full scale aircraft.
Because a baseball is not an aircraft. First sentence of section 307 (c) limits the authority to "flight of aircraft". Our models do fit the definition of "aircraft".

Brad
Old 12-07-2010, 06:42 AM
  #229  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

OK, show me where the FAA or NTSBwas called to action for a model airplane crash. There is also the issue of commercial aviation that we have discussed. The need for inter state commerce, but not intrastate commerce.
Old 12-07-2010, 07:08 AM
  #230  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge


ORIGINAL: bkdavy


Because a baseball is not an aircraft. First sentence of section 307 (c) limits the authority to ''flight of aircraft''. Our models do fit the definition of ''aircraft''.

Brad
I would have been happy with preserving and defending the term "model aircraft"...don't really find male compensating that necessary.
Old 12-07-2010, 07:36 AM
  #231  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Hook,
You are getting into too much detail. You said that the exclusion area was under an overlying Class B area. You said it is an exclusion area, so it is not a normal Class B area. Here is the FAA description.

(d) New York Class B airspace Hudson River Exclusion is that area from the surface up to but not including the overlying floor of the New York Class B airspace area,
So it is indeed a seperate area under a normal ClassB area.

We could go on and on about what navigable airspace is, you seem to think it has something to do with controlled airspace as you keep bringing up airspace class. But that is besides the point, lets forget the definition for now.

However this is actually off topic. The aircraft are not supposed to get close to the bridge, buildings or surface area. The model appeared to be in that area the full scale plane is not. So I don't see a problem with safety, unless the model was flying well into the areas the full scale plane's should be.

I admit I am not familiar with the area. There may have been a violation when the model passed across helicopter routes for example. I did not consult any air maps.
Old 12-07-2010, 07:38 AM
  #232  
hairy46
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

With goverment in our face so much anymore, Why do people do such stupid stunts and then post them on utube? I had run across one where they were shooting at a rc plane not even caring what or who was on the other side of the river! I know this is a hobby that is easier to get into then ever before with ARF's and such, but it seems like its starting to attract not just the guys that love the hobby for what it has always been but allot of stupid folks that do really stupid things with RC and then post thier stupidity online! Its the War-birds over the Rockies event and stuff like that I like to do. But and as I said before I believe that most of us follow AMA rules and club rules and just plain ole common sence! But what are we to do about stupid?
Old 12-07-2010, 07:43 AM
  #233  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge


ORIGINAL: hairy46

With goverment in our face so much anymore, Why do people do such stupid stunts and then post them on utube? I had run across one where they were shooting at a rc plane not even caring what or who was on the other side of the river! I know this is a hobby that is easier to get into then ever before with ARF's and such, but it seems like its starting to attract not just the guys that love the hobby for what it has always been but allot of stupid folks that do really stupid things with RC and then post thier stupidity online! Its the War-birds over the Rockies event and stuff like that I like to do. But and as I said before I believe that most of us follow AMA rules and club rules and just plain ole common sence! But what are we to do about stupid?


Get on here an waste countless 1's an 0's talking about it
Old 12-07-2010, 07:54 AM
  #234  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Why do people do such stupid stunts and then post them on utube?
Fame and sometimes (rarely) money.
Old 12-07-2010, 08:01 AM
  #235  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

I do not think it is a waste of time talking about it! STUPID has to be stopped before it stops the ones that do this has a hobby! This doing stuff and then posting it is just plain wrong! I want to hand my planes and RC stuff down to my grandkids someday, But with this going on maybe the only thing I can pass on to them is the ruberband powered aircraft!
Old 12-07-2010, 08:07 AM
  #236  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Believe me, talking about it on this forum is not gonna stop it, no matter how many pages we consume......

When I first looked over at the other forum a coupla days ago the guy that did this had 104 pages on it. Today there is now 209 pages with over 10,000 replys. That has to be some sort of record I'd think
Old 12-07-2010, 08:23 AM
  #237  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

lol
A baseball is just a Hand Launched Glider
of horrible design and terrible efficiency[8D]
Old 12-07-2010, 08:36 AM
  #238  
hairy46
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Ronnie, My life starts and stops with RC airplanes, When I am home I work on them, when I am at work I wish I was at home working on them! As I build I am wondering what size of Saito will be going in it, should I put in a detailed cockpit or just a pilot, Should I go with these retracts or those new ones out! My whole life is wrapped up into RC planes and flying and just the folks that I have meet doing this! We get on the phone a month before a big event to find out who's coming and what they will be flying. My kids even ask dad what in RC do you want for your birthday or Christmas? My life use to be my kids now that they are grown its this old dog of mine and every hour I can spend on building and flying! Just short of 18 gal. of fuel this last summer flying! I love this hobby, I call it my therapy. And the thought of ever losing it scares the crap out of me! I have no idea what I would do instead of? Watch TV? I gave that crap up over 10 years ago! This is what I have that no matter how bad a day I have an hour in the shop relaxes me, And I was never good at building just models if they can not do anything but sit on a shelve! They have to be flown! The thought of not being able to build and fly just depresses the hell out of me! I know we can not stop these idiots because idiots do what idiots do! But how do we save this great hobby from idiots like this?
Old 12-07-2010, 08:42 AM
  #239  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Just so that you know the FAA controls the airspace from ground level to 100,000 feet and then NASA takes over
Sport says:
Find where in the FAA act that gave the FAA where the FAA has authourity over anything other than navigable airspace. If anyone can find that I would shut up.
From the aviation act of 1958:
Section 101 (29) “Navigable airspace” means airspace above the minimumaltitudes of flight prescribed by regulations issued under this Act,
and shall include airspace needed to
91.119 sets the minimum altitude requirements, and in so doing sets the navigable airspace areas, with exception to those set by national parks, military areas, and national security areas.
in cfr14.91.119c 'Sparse' areas, the Min Alt (& thereby Navigable per 1958) does indeed go down to the ground... so what he says is true. Other particular situations have higher floors, and THAT is done by FAA making the rule that selects what IS and what IS NOT navigable by FAA choosing by itself (not congress or constitution) where to set the floor.
Old 12-07-2010, 08:57 AM
  #240  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge


ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

OK, show me where the FAA or NTSB was called to action for a model airplane crash. There is also the issue of commercial aviation that we have discussed. The need for inter state commerce, but not intrastate commerce.
I think you are debating for the sake of debate, and using semantics as the basis for debate. Might I suggest that you identify some of this "non-navigable" airspace, perform some action that threatens life or property of others not associated with your actions, have witnesses report your actions, and see what happens?

At that time I'm absolutely certain you will experience an alteration of veiwpoint. As for the NTSB, they are currently investigating several incidents involving the flight of model aircraft. There may have already been such instances but I don't have the time to research the NTSB incident database.
Old 12-07-2010, 08:59 AM
  #241  
The Toolman
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Hairy, if yer like me, you live out in the country. They won't stop me, I'll just keep flying. Where I fly, nobody really gives a hoot anyway.
Old 12-07-2010, 09:24 AM
  #242  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Most of my flying is at our club, with friends but I do go right out here about a mile and fly if I only have enough time to fly a little while, I spent a couple days and cleaned all the rocks and able to land without worry of a crosswind out there. Wyoming is wide open! This hobby gets in the blood, If I have to go to the doctor I know I will have some waiting time so I take in a RC mag to read instead of the stuff they have. I do not have cable or anything like that so if I get time its a DVD of something RC airplanes. Yes this is my life!
Old 12-07-2010, 09:29 AM
  #243  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge


ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Hook,
You are getting into too much detail. You said that the exclusion area was under an overlying Class B area. You said it is an exclusion area, so it is not a normal Class B area. Here is the FAA description.

(d) New York Class B airspace Hudson River Exclusion is that area from the surface up to but not including the overlying floor of the New York Class B airspace area,
So it is indeed a seperate area under a normal ClassB area.

We could go on and on about what navigable airspace is, you seem to think it has something to do with controlled airspace as you keep bringing up airspace class. But that is besides the point, lets forget the definition for now.

However this is actually off topic. The aircraft are not supposed to get close to the bridge, buildings or surface area. The model appeared to be in that area the full scale plane is not. So I don't see a problem with safety, unless the model was flying well into the areas the full scale plane's should be.

I admit I am not familiar with the area. There may have been a violation when the model passed across helicopter routes for example. I did not consult any air maps.

As they say, “the devil is in the details”, which are necessary for obvious enough reasons; and yes, it is an “exclusion” within[/b] that designated space. It can be included (read exclusion removed) any time ATC/ATO decides to do so.

<o>
</o>

We could.

Actually you have persisted with the “navigable” airspace drama in part from your understanding, or lack of, the 1958 Act and as can be found throughout RCU.

Seriously, are definitions to challenging for you to accept? In any case, definitions aside, a box is still a box and pigs really don’t fly; although they have been said to have red lips….

<o></o>

Yes, it is off topic, where you often tend to get things directed with your misunderstanding/misinformation. My apologies to the OP for doing that. Any aircraft operating in the exclusion could have potentially been in the path of the model. After all, the model had to transit the various areas to get from one point to the next. Aside from the very premise of “see and avoid”, the what if, and it is a big what if, is what the operator would/could have done if he/she lost one of the big Cs. I’ll leave you to define, I mean determine, what the big Cs are.

<o></o>

Lastly, you dispute others valid points while admitting a lack of “familiarity” of the area or its charting. The jeopardy in that is unknowingly perpetuatingthat lack of “familiarity. Perhaps some reading on the material you often quote would go a long way in imparting on you a bit of subject matter knowledge.

<o></o>

By the way, KE explained it well too, so did T.o.M, so did Horrace, so did L.C. and Toolman, etc, etc…..

<o>
hook

</o>

Old 12-07-2010, 09:55 AM
  #244  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge


ORIGINAL: hairy46

But what are we to do about stupid?
I wish there was an answer to this question. I saw an early post in this thread that said:

" Because of these kinds of actions the FAA WILL see a need for more stringent rules and use these kind of stunts as proof. When they do, ALL you supporters of these kind of stunts can take ALL the blame... "

While I agree with this, I am simply upset that I (and my flying field) may be a non-contributing casualty of the ignorance of these people and we will lose our flying rights along with all of the idiots that I have no control over. AMA members or not. I am simply a casual pilot that likes to build and fly. I would probably continue building even if I couldn't fly. Its scary when we have folks that need warning lables like the one attached, that can (unfortunately) vote, breed, and do things that effect us all. I certainly don't think that someone buying an "Air hog" at the local toy store is joining the AMA, or think about how their actions will impact the primary modeling community. They will trash that plane, and move on to the next cool thing in the store while those of us who really enjoy this hobby will suffer. This thread is bumming me out!

~D
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:38 AM
  #245  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Lastly, you dispute others valid points while admitting a lack of “familiarity” of the area or its charting. The jeopardy in that is unknowingly perpetuating that lack of “familiarity. Perhaps some reading on the material you often quote would go a long way in imparting on you a bit of subject matter knowledge.
I have simply said they could have broken some rules. I have said so several times. I don't think detailing all of the FAR's and airspace rules in necessary for this discussion. The point is that if the model sticks close to buildings and surfaces it should be allowed if the local authority allow's it. I have never claimed the FAA rules absolutely allow this.

Old 12-07-2010, 10:43 AM
  #246  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge


ORIGINAL: tande

JimDrew
Xtreme Power Systems



Yes, we are definitely opposed to this. I can guarantee that just one time anyone uses one of these setups to even drop a paintball on a federal facility, modeling as we know it in the U.S. will cease to exist.


If that's the case, then you have a serious problem with "government" itself ... you'd have to wonder just who are the terrorists, I think.



I showed this video to a number of people on a debating forum ... none of them modellers ... and the responses were universally positive. Nobody mentioned explosions or terrorism.

Is this furore just an example of a few people getting their "pants on their heads" ?
Old 12-07-2010, 10:45 AM
  #247  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

furore


Is that a word native to England? If so, I have no idea what it means. oh yeah, pants on their head? do you mean panties in a wad?
Old 12-07-2010, 04:05 PM
  #248  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

This whole incident and what is being discussed between the FAA and AMA gave me a concerning thought about the possible future of RC. While I'm an AMA member, I can't say I've been particularly thrilled with them over the last 6 or 8 years. IMHO they have used the Muncie flying site to grow more bureaucratic. I'm a member because I fly at an AMA charted club site, and I do think there needs to be an organization that watches out for the hobby. This event and similar along with the UAV talks makes me wonder if RC model flying might get limited to “approved” RC fields in the US with the AMA as the designated civil authority to “approve” sites…. Some years back they started asking clubs for latitude and longitude coordinates.
Old 12-07-2010, 04:21 PM
  #249  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

We definitely have all of our eggs in 1 basket. I hope the gamble making the ama the 1 voice for the RC community pays off.... Several feel that it would be hard to enforce any new rules, but for the majority of us, it would be extremely simple and could wipe us out in a second. All that would have to be done is for the ama to adopt the new policy and at that time, any club that wants to keep the ama insurance policy (99% of the clubs now require ama insurance) will have to abide by the new rules. Instantly that would stop almost everything but foamies [:@] Maybe the manufacturers have known this all along with all of the foamies and park fliers hitting the markets
Old 12-07-2010, 04:22 PM
  #250  
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Default RE: Idiots in New York, RC plane buzzing Statue of Liberty & Brooklyn Bridge

Our whole club, all 5 of us quit'em, charter an all. We just use our house ins an the prop owner isn't worried about it. I think the ama has gotten so big that they are more interested in saving their butts than ours. I have no use for them anymore an wouldn't water on'em if they was on fire.
Any other fields I go to is just to watch the planes fly, so I don't even need'em for that either.


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