Fear mongering? AMA members with airman certificates?
#251
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
#252
Your reasoning is correct, except for aircraft that aborted a landing, and aircraft on take off. Depending on how far away the model field is from a full size airport. Oh, and don't forget about those that have a Low Altitude waver.
Anyone reading this should by now (especially after what hounddog has pointed out) that the rules the FAA are setting are not aimed at us, the Model Airplane pilot flying using AMA Safety Guidelines, but Joe Blow with the idea of flying his gopro to get a shot and not using any common sense.
Anyone reading this should by now (especially after what hounddog has pointed out) that the rules the FAA are setting are not aimed at us, the Model Airplane pilot flying using AMA Safety Guidelines, but Joe Blow with the idea of flying his gopro to get a shot and not using any common sense.
Originally Posted by HoundDog
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
#253
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Don't forget about crop dusters. They are not limited to pure Southern crops. I have watched them at work in mid USA. along with close to Jetero RC Club here in NE Houston area. I have driven from Houston area to Upper Peninsula, MI, for last 18 years, using different routes so I get to see some great "dusting". Every so often one can see an RC airplane buzzing the area.
That trip is about to end. Selling my lake-front place up there, but still will be going to Chicago area (Arlington Heights) and Madison, WI each year. WHY? Grand-kids !
That trip is about to end. Selling my lake-front place up there, but still will be going to Chicago area (Arlington Heights) and Madison, WI each year. WHY? Grand-kids !
Last edited by joebahl; 10-30-2014 at 09:25 AM.
#254
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Anyone reading this should by now (especially after what hounddog has pointed out) that the rules the FAA are setting are not aimed at us, the Model Airplane pilot flying using AMA Safety Guidelines, but Joe Blow with the idea of flying his gopro to get a shot and not using any common sense.
The rules about lead in kids' toys were aimed at cheap junk toys from China, but they had the effect of outlawing children's dirt bikes (and even repairs of children's dirt bikes if spare parts are needed), handmade toys, and children's blue jeans with brass fasteners.
Of course, today it's "just" the 100,000 people or so that live near Disney World, plus those of us near stadiums during events. But remember, if the FAA's "interpretation" of § 336 becomes official, it could be all of us within five miles of any airport (unless we get permission, and why would anyone give us that?), and there are thousands of airports listed in the FAA's airport-contact-information list. (One county I looked at has 22, some of them just grass strips on somebody's farm.)That rule alone could put most of the USA off limits for RC.The FAA's interpretation will also shut down modeling in Class B airspace, and the AMA has said that means some 100 club fields will have to close.
(And yes, I know, a couple of people have insisted loudly but without giving reasons that the FAA doesn't mean all the airports on its list when it says "airports." Sure.)
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
The ground is not mentioned so a person flying a model at 300' agl and 600' away lateraly could cause harm to an aircraft if in open country. The problem with the entire thread is it is up to the administrater or delegate of to deside what is reckless then you can start spending money to prove your side.
#256
My Feedback: (49)
Originally Posted by HoundDog
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
I took it that the interpretation of by the FAA of an
"open air assembly of persons "
Was just that and it could go either way by the FAA/NTSB for prosecution purposes. But now that the FAA has put the NPRM for drone intergration into the ATC it's a moot point for another 2 years. Besides all the R/C fields I fly at pretty much are surrounded pretty much by Sub Divisions and houses. And just what constitutes "Sparingly Populated anyway." In Wisconsin where I fly in the summer, one R/C field is within 5 SM of a towered air port and the other is on a Private Restricted Non Unicom airport. Planes are ,Or should be 1000 AGL When in or crossing through the pattern of the Private air port and 1000' agl when with in 5 miles of the towered air port and in contact with the tower.
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
Part (c) of 91.119 should be included in the discussion. Over other than congested areas 500' agl except over sparsely populated areas and open water 500' seperation from structure person or vehicle.
The ground is not mentioned so a person flying a model at 300' agl and 600' away lateraly could cause harm to an aircraft if in open country. The problem with the entire thread is it is up to the administrater or delegate of to deside what is reckless then you can start spending money to prove your side.
The ground is not mentioned so a person flying a model at 300' agl and 600' away lateraly could cause harm to an aircraft if in open country. The problem with the entire thread is it is up to the administrater or delegate of to deside what is reckless then you can start spending money to prove your side.
"open air assembly of persons "
Was just that and it could go either way by the FAA/NTSB for prosecution purposes. But now that the FAA has put the NPRM for drone intergration into the ATC it's a moot point for another 2 years. Besides all the R/C fields I fly at pretty much are surrounded pretty much by Sub Divisions and houses. And just what constitutes "Sparingly Populated anyway." In Wisconsin where I fly in the summer, one R/C field is within 5 SM of a towered air port and the other is on a Private Restricted Non Unicom airport. Planes are ,Or should be 1000 AGL When in or crossing through the pattern of the Private air port and 1000' agl when with in 5 miles of the towered air port and in contact with the tower.
Last edited by HoundDog; 12-17-2014 at 05:15 AM.
#257
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Don't for get this catch all in FAR 91.119 There's a reason it's first in line about Safe Altitudes.
Code of Federal Regulations
Sec. 91.119
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%, colspan: 2"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Subpart B--Flight Rules[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Sec. 91.119
Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
At Best Engine out glide speed on light GA Aircraft you get between 500 and 800 feet per minute Rate of Decent. At 500' AGL that's 60 to 37.5 seconds from prop Stop to Find a suitable & Safe "emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
All I got to say that Flying 500' AGL isn't the smartest thing in the world for a pilot to be doing. But then there are Bold Pilots and there are Old Pilots but there "NO OLD BOLD PILOTS.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
[ (d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface--
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and
(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.]
Code of Federal Regulations
Sec. 91.119
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%, colspan: 2"]
Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Subpart B--Flight Rules[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]
General
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
Sec. 91.119
Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
At Best Engine out glide speed on light GA Aircraft you get between 500 and 800 feet per minute Rate of Decent. At 500' AGL that's 60 to 37.5 seconds from prop Stop to Find a suitable & Safe "emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
All I got to say that Flying 500' AGL isn't the smartest thing in the world for a pilot to be doing. But then there are Bold Pilots and there are Old Pilots but there "NO OLD BOLD PILOTS.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
[ (d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface--
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and
(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.]
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My understanding of his tragic death involved overenthusiasm. He was so excited about flying his new plane that he failed to do a proper preflight. Definitely stupid. The other problem was that the emergency fuel supply valve was not accessible form the pilot's seat, a very poor design or a construction mistake. Not so much his fault.
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
I took it that the interpretation of by the FAA of an
"open air assembly of persons "
Was just that and it could go either way by the FAA/NTSB for prosecution purposes. But now that the FAA has put the NPRM for drone intergration into the ATC it's a moot point for another 2 years. Besides all the R/C fields I fly at pretty much are surrounded pretty much by Sub Divisions and houses. And just what constitutes "Sparingly Populated anyway." In Wisconsin where I fly in the summer, one R/C field is within 5 SM of a towered air port and the other is on a Private Restricted Non Unicom airport. Planes are ,Or should be 1000 AGL When in or crossing through the pattern of the Private air port and 1000' agl when with in 5 miles of the towered air port and in contact with the tower.
According to the gentleman I spoke with today 10/28/14 at the Phoenix Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO)
When I asked him what's the FAA definition of an "open air assembly of persons" as in FAR 91.119 (b)
He stated, It could be a family picnic or any group or gathering there for some purpose. I then asked if there was any particular number of people that constituted an "open air assembly of persons". His answer was NO. I left it there.
Then I would say that Full Scale planes would have to maintain 1000' not 500' over any R/C Field when occupied.
Also when flying within 5 sm of an airport air planes (other than those on an instrument approach) are supposed to be at pattern altitude usually for smaller planes pattern altitude is 1000' AGL. What I getting at is that Full Scale planes should be at least 1000' AGL not 500' especially when near an airport or any R/C field. Is my reasoning right or wrong?
I took it that the interpretation of by the FAA of an
"open air assembly of persons "
Was just that and it could go either way by the FAA/NTSB for prosecution purposes. But now that the FAA has put the NPRM for drone intergration into the ATC it's a moot point for another 2 years. Besides all the R/C fields I fly at pretty much are surrounded pretty much by Sub Divisions and houses. And just what constitutes "Sparingly Populated anyway." In Wisconsin where I fly in the summer, one R/C field is within 5 SM of a towered air port and the other is on a Private Restricted Non Unicom airport. Planes are ,Or should be 1000 AGL When in or crossing through the pattern of the Private air port and 1000' agl when with in 5 miles of the towered air port and in contact with the tower.
#263
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Don't for get this catch all in FAR 91.119 There's a reason it's first in line about Safe Altitudes.
Code of Federal Regulations
Sec. 91.119
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Subpart B--Flight Rules[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Sec. 91.119
Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
At Best Engine out glide speed on light GA Aircraft you get between 500 and 800 feet per minute Rate of Decent. At 500' AGL that's 60 to 37.5 seconds from prop Stop to Find a suitable & Safe "emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
All I got to say that Flying 500' AGL isn't the smartest thing in the world for a pilot to be doing. But then there are Bold Pilots and there are Old Pilots but there "NO OLD BOLD PILOTS.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
[ (d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface--
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and
(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.]
Code of Federal Regulations
Sec. 91.119
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
Part 91 GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Subpart B--Flight Rules[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]
General
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
Sec. 91.119
Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
At Best Engine out glide speed on light GA Aircraft you get between 500 and 800 feet per minute Rate of Decent. At 500' AGL that's 60 to 37.5 seconds from prop Stop to Find a suitable & Safe "emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
All I got to say that Flying 500' AGL isn't the smartest thing in the world for a pilot to be doing. But then there are Bold Pilots and there are Old Pilots but there "NO OLD BOLD PILOTS.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
[ (d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface--
(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and
(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.]
The point is yes the faa can take your ticket for rc flying will they or how likely is a for another discussion I think the AMA is right in putting this info out plus this is a very good discussion to have so more of us will have a better understanding of the rules of the air.
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My understanding of his tragic death involved overenthusiasm. He was so excited about flying his new plane that he failed to do a proper preflight. Definitely stupid. The other problem was that the emergency fuel supply valve was not accessible form the pilot's seat, a very poor design or a construction mistake. Not so much his fault.
Frank
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I believe he was in his take off climb out when he ran out of gas. Usually take offs take place at ground level which, I believe, is below 500 ft, unless I am mistaken. I am sure LCS will enjoy this, can't wait for a snarky comment.
#267
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http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183015-1.html?redirected=1
Witnesses estimated the airplane at 350 to 500 feet over the residential area while heading toward the shoreline.
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Close-Up: The John Denver Crash
http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183015-1.html?redirected=1
Witnesses estimated the airplane at 350 to 500 feet over the residential area while heading toward the shoreline.
http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183015-1.html?redirected=1
Witnesses estimated the airplane at 350 to 500 feet over the residential area while heading toward the shoreline.
#270
BTW, don't forget the original thought of this thread; " Fear Mongering " by the AMA.
Now that the facts have come to light, Frank would be WRONG in assuming there was any "fear Mongering" by the AMA.......
Now that the facts have come to light, Frank would be WRONG in assuming there was any "fear Mongering" by the AMA.......
#272
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I dought that any paper work technicality like no medical, no endorsement or missing logs have caused many airplane accidents Unless not reading the manual on how to switch tanks or checking fuel level before take off is considered a paper work technically.
If proper paper work kept airplanes from crashing we modelers would be inundated with it.How having to fill out a 337 for every modification to a model or Just think if You had to fill out an indecent or accident with the AMA version of the NTSB Good Grief.
#273
Shhhhhh...................... keep quiet about reporting paperwork, franklin_m might be reading the post.
#274
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"If proper paper work kept airplanes from crashing we modelers would be inundated with it.How having to fill out a 337 for every modification to a model or Just think if You had to fill out an indecent or accident with the AMA version of the NTSB Good Grief"
It would be a simple form: Check here if pilot error and check here if it was radio failure. See, that was simple and it will cover 99.9% of all accidents.
It would be a simple form: Check here if pilot error and check here if it was radio failure. See, that was simple and it will cover 99.9% of all accidents.
#275
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[QUOTE=tailskid;11948545]"If proper paper work kept airplanes from crashing we modelers would be inundated with it.How having to fill out a 337 for every modification to a model or Just think if You had to fill out an indecent or accident with the AMA version of the NTSB Good Grief"
It would be a simple form: Check here if pilot error and check here if it was radio failure. See, that was simple and it will cover 99.9% of all accidents.
[B]
What do U mean Radio Failure it's the era of 2.4 They are BULLET proof. LOL
As for PILOT ERROR why does it seem to always be the
same people crashing that's not Pilot error that's Incompatible plain and simple.
It would be a simple form: Check here if pilot error and check here if it was radio failure. See, that was simple and it will cover 99.9% of all accidents.
[B]
What do U mean Radio Failure it's the era of 2.4 They are BULLET proof. LOL
As for PILOT ERROR why does it seem to always be the
same people crashing that's not Pilot error that's Incompatible plain and simple.
Last edited by HoundDog; 12-26-2014 at 04:13 PM.