franklin_m

Well, when folks keep pushing that the way to get comments heard is to be a LM, Officer, AVP, etc., it's a pretty clear implication that those members get heard, while rank and file do not.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Nobody has said anything remotely close to that, again, your view through your "I'm not worthy" prism and filter. This sounds like one of those Trump comments..."people are saying..." You realize this isn't the military right? Did Mike become a Leader Member so he could be heard, I doubt it. He's been very vocal about his discussions and communications with the AMA and his DVP for many years before becoming a LM. In fact you've had multiple communications with DVPs and members of the EC, including Chad. Did you feel as though you weren't heard, or that you needed to be something more than "just" a member to have a say? Or is this just a ploy to denigrate those that have chosen to do more? I think I've said repeatedly "status" is irrelevant, everyone has a direct line right up to the President, from a brand new members to a drone pilot. If you are looking at this org as if there is some select chosen few hierarchy, man are you looking at this totally wrong, imo. You've been pushing this Us versus Them Royalty narrative lately, but again, I think this is all you. This isn't the AMA I know, or even one that others are complaining about. No power, no glory, no riches. Just a bunch of folks in the hobby because they enjoy it, and choose to do it.

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Goon thing there is at least 338 road miles or 276 miles LOS between U 2. Hate to see what would happen if U were neighbors.

franklin_m

No need to be pedantic, of course I know this is not the military. Perhaps you'd be willing to nominate me to be a Leader Member and we'll see if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. You said I needed to get involved. Ok. I'm willing to be a leader member. Are you willing to nominate?

In all fairness, I tried to get the organization to confront the looming problem of operating discipline a while ago, and promptly got fillibustered because "you're not a waiver holder." Now, based on the EC comments, it sure looks like they're facing a big problem with just that - Operating Discipline. Based on HD's comment in another forum, a reported near miss between a full scale Cessna and a turbine flier (observer not watching the sky but rather the jet), they narrowly missed that "one incident" that EC discussed. It's wishful thinking that more "communication" and "education" is going to fix this fast enough to prevent another incident. But hey, what do I know?

Tubine community has a safety culture problem. One that's not going to be fixed using the programmatic framework that allowed it to develop in the first place. There's been any number of events attended by the EC. To think that those were the limited number where there was perfect operating discipline is fanciful. More likely there were breaches there, but the EC members failed to notice or did and tolerated it. Not uncommon, it's a characteristic one finds in struggling safety cultures. But when you miss these "weak signals" as they're called in the trade, your wake up call comes in the form of a low probability high consequence event.

Pleny of examples out there of where this "normalizion of deviance" led to big problems.

rcmiket

You don't need to be nominated by anyone.

"Leader membership is attained through an individual’s demonstrated conduct and contributions, via a Leader Membership Application form. This form requires your relevant experiences and three references of other Leader Member. If Leader members are unavailable three Adult* Members and an endorsement by a District Vice President or Associate Vice President may be substituted. *Park Pilot members do not qualify"

Just fill out the paperwork along with a resume and apply. It's rather simple.

Mike
"

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

It's not a given that everyone who sends the paperwork in will get that designation, even if filling out the paperwork is "easy". Filling out a grant request is easy too.....

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Slow day? Bad weather out there? I'm sure all of us live close to folks we don't completely agree with....is that some kind of rarity?

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Rupprecht Law P.A.

[TABLE="class: yiv8056985922mcnTextContentContainer, width: 100%, align: left"]
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[TD="class: yiv8056985922mcnTextContent"]The FAA Has Started Granting Part 107 Waivers.
Rupprecht Law PA’s Client Was Just Granted a Part 107 Night Waiver.http://bit.ly/2bzqbrF Precision Hawk picked up a BVLOS/ELOS waiver. CNN picked up a waiver to fly over people.

I’ll Be Speaking at Interdrone.
If you are on the fence about attending, here is a $150 off discount code! Simply go to http://www.interdrone.com/registrationdetails and use the code RUPPRECHT

The FAA Just Created a Web Portal to Submit Crash Info.
Part 107 requires individuals to report certain accidents.https://www.faa.gov/uas/report_accident/ If you are interested in brushing up on what is required to be reported after a drone crash, see the article What Do I Do After I Crash My Drone?

Could U see if we had to report every crash to the FAA or AMA.
The paper work would cause them to go Bonkers.[/TD]
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franklin_m

So are you saying you won't sign my application?

SigMan

My Feedback: (21)

what is a droner ?

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

1: all of us, according to the gubmint
2: all of us that keep going on and on
3: all of the above

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Funny you should mention that, I believe someone here has already suggested that, specifically with the intention of annoying some low level staffer or someone answering the phones at the FAA. As if that would result in anything other than....annoying people at the FAA. Good idea right?

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Sigman ... I intended "Droner" as a person that flies Drones. (Quads)
Simple as that ...No Hidden Message. Sorry.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

LoL, obvious ploy is...obvious...lol. Gosh I never saw that question coming nor your next response. I know virtually nothing about you other than what I've read here over the past 10 years, and you know that, yet I'm expected to cosign an application for that role?

Your comments over the past month or so seem to indicate you don't have the time to devote to this, but if you've freed up some time or decided to get more involved, fantastic. Start with joining a club. Become a AMA Intro Pilot. Or become a Club instructor. Or a Club Officer. Or a Club Educational program director. Or a Cap Program Liaison, or an appointed District Officer, like say Webmaster or Coordinator, maybe even District Safety Officer. That would be my suggestion as to where to start if you are really serious about becoming a Leader Members, which I presume you are right?

The last person I urged to become a LM, and in fact "signed off" on, had most of those qualifications over his 40 plus years in the hobby, a great mentor and teacher, in addition to being a published author.

Here's the link to the application. Think you meet the qualifications and have the time to invest, excellent, fill it out, get 3 signatures from folks in your area, and present it to your DVP.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/l...pplication.pdf

Good luck!

franklin_m

I was thinking the Scientific category - stated requirement is "only" an aviation background of a scientific nature. I would think a graduate and former instructor from one of only three developmental test pilot schools in the US would meet that standard. The aviation safety background would be gravy. In terms of getting involved, the current issue with the turbines and the EC minutes is tailor made not just for my experience, but also directly related to the consulting work I do ... organizational culture change - specifically with respect to enhancing disciplined operations. Probably won't even get queried though, I'm not a waiver holder.

Did you notice that LM's are to "Conduct [themselves] as befits a Leader?" Or that LM's are to "Insure (sic) fellow AMA members clearly understand AMA's vision and goals?"

I wonder if those include belittling anyone that has questions?

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Color me shocked, you found a way to take a shot at me for being a Leader Member, again. Guess I'm not allowed to have a personal choice? I'm sorry I can't back you for the position, if you choose to take it personally there isn't much I can do about that. You knew asking what the answer would be but asked anyway to get the response you desired, so you could continue on. I would suggest channeling your efforts in a more positive and fruitful manner, really. Ask Mike for his thoughts, since he agrees with most of your positions he might be someone to help you out with a signature. If you think you can meet the Scientific category, by all means, go for it. Your DVP has the ability to accept the application. It's ultimately up to him, so why aren't you asking him rather than asking strangers on RCU?

On the turbine effort, looks like you already tried that route though and were told thanks but no thanks. You've made other attempts and met the same result. Is another attempt going to be different, or do you want to same result again? That doesn't seem productive, but it may fulfill a goal. Any chance you went to the president of the SIG, or did you stop at the first sign of resistance along the way. What is stopping you from getting a turbine waiver? With your self described background, what's the roadblock? What is stopping you from doing any of the things I suggested above, other than a big time investment? Do you think prior work experience alone entitled you to something? Prior work experience might be a factor, but I'd have to make a guess that your time in the hobby, willingness to put in the time and effort and meet some pretty basic requirements/electives are probably more of a factor than your resume.

You might have unrealistic expectations, and based on recent comments it really doesn't seem like this is something you are really interested in, just another point of argument. But if your honest about it, put the real work in and make an honest effort at attaining that position. Don't complain to me that I am holding you back somehow because I won't sign a paper for you. Quitting a club because of a few dollars, then being asked to be a Leader in the hobby seems like an incongruous position to take. Go join a club, then demonstrate the ability to attain and hold those roles I noted above, and perhaps then your application will be given the attention it deserves. It's what I did, why can't you?

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

Porsche,
you are aware that approximately 50% of leader members are not now, and were not club members anywhere when they got their leader status..
myself included.
a whole lot of "lone wolves" are involved in modeling, and have been since the first stick airplanes were flown.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Mango,
I'm not aware of that statistic, nor am I sure where you are getting that from. Fact? Source? Cite? It's doubtful you know the backgrounds of 50% of the Leader Members in the AMA, it sounds like a conclusion you have arrived at based on, well who knows, perhaps LM in your area? Folks here have a habit of taking what goes on in their particular geographic area and extrapolating that out to "this is what is going on". I understand why that would happen, but don't find my much in the way of veracity there. The "lone wolf" theory as far as I can see is just that, a theory.

I've said repeatedly that one doesn't need to join a club to enjoy the hobby, and that there are probably more people enjoying the hobby that aren't part of a club system, nor the AMA. If that works for them, great. All that matters is the enjoy themselves, and are flying safe.

My suggestions to Franklin were reasonable. It's about creating some type of roots in the hobby, and meeting some of the criteria that the DVP could use to help make the decision. Based on 10 plus years of posts, which is the only way I know this person, I have doubts his sudden interest in the LM status in genuine. Rather, I think it's another opportunity to complain, and mock. If he thinks he's a shoe in because of his prior work experience, good for him. I don't. Will his DVP, if he ever see's an application, I don't. He will no doubt see the same things we have, a guy who quit a club over a few bucks. A guy who has accused the AMA of misreporting data to the IRS, and is actively gathering data to report to the IRS. He will see a person who said he would gather accident and injury data to feed to personal injury attorneys. He will see a person who threatened to use his political connections to make "life difficult" for the AMA. Leader member material? All his own words right here....

Would you cosign for him? If so, great, that's your personal choice to make.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

as you are so fond of saying to others, call your DVP or the AMA itself and ask. i do know if you get the right person on the line, they can tell you. just ask for totals of AMA member numbers that are not associated with a club charter. you can ask the same for leader members.
probably a whole lot easier to get this information from them, than it would be to get any tax/financial information.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Lol, you presume I haven't already? As usual, I do what I suggest others should do. Some folks DO... others just complain and wonder.

Was in regular touch with Rusty when he was a point of contact and already reached out to Scott as well. Have you?

So as I'm also fond of saying, and I'll ask again, where is you proof? So far, it seems like you are giving your opinion, and that's fine, but it's far from proof. If you get the "right" person on the phone with the AMA and they confirm your hypothesis, have them shoot you confirmation on that, and then post it up. Otherwise, it seems like it's a guess.

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Drone Pilots Expected To Outnumber Aviators
By Mary Grady
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With new FAA rules now in place, as of Monday, for operators to secure a commercial drone certificate, it’s been projected that their numbers will quickly outnumber manned-aircraft pilots. The FAA has estimated the number of certified commercial drone operators could exceed 600,000 within a year, equal to the total number of pilots from student to ATP. More than 3,300 people signed up to take the FAA drone knowledge test on Monday, the first day it was available, according to Bloomberg News. “The sky is going to open up at the end of August for a lot of opportunities,” said Randy Yates, of Omaha, Nebraska, who plans to use drones in his property-inspection business. “It’s going to be a whole new world.” The Air Line Pilots Association issued a statement on Monday, raising concerns about the safety of FAA’s new venture.
The new rules are “missing a key component,” according to ALPA. Commercial drone operators should be required to pass a flight test, ALPA said, as well as the FAA’s knowledge test. The FAA also should do more to regulate recreational drone flyers, ALPA said. Brian Wynne, president of the Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International, said the new rules will enable businesses and innovators “to harness the tremendous potential of UAS and unlock the many economic and societal benefits the technology offers.” Prior to this week, the FAA already had approved more than 5,000 exemptions to allow for commercial drone use.

[/TD]
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franklin_m

The FAA has generally established a regulatory framework where those with the highest level of validated knowledge and training are afforded more privileges. Whether carrying passengers, flying in weather, flying for money, or flying large airplanes full of people, that regulatory structure has generally worked well.

With respect to sUAS operations, the FAA is doing the opposite!

Those without validated knowledge of the airspace and FARs (recreational fliers) enjoy the greatest ability to fly fast, fly high, fly close to airports, fly at night, fly big stuff, etc.

franklin_m

Many of the folks here whose ideas or questions you've mocked are AMA members. It appears that your pledge to the AMA that you would "Conduct [your]self as befits a Leader" means little.

I don't see anything that says as a Leader Member that you get to pick and choose when to follow the pledge and when not to follow it. I would argue that if you didn't think you could ALWAYS live up to those high ideals, perhaps you shouldn't have made the pledge.

You forgot the unspoken second part of that sentence, the part that reads ".... but only if you do it in a way that I approve."

As said once already, any attempt to have a discussion of the culture was filibustered. My aviation safety training and experience investigating unit culture in the wake of a mishap tells me that the culture is failed. A group that is not even willing to consider that they aren't as good as they say they are is a culture that generally will not change until there's a disaster.

We've had this discussion before, but I'll repeat it for you. It's a question of time and facilities. I'm not going to plow thousands of dollars getting into turbines when I'm limited to only those designs that can handle rough grass fields - which is all that's available in the distance that's reasonable given the time and schedule limits on my hobby flying. If there were better facilities close by, absolutely. I've flown turbine powered developmental drones when on active duty, and they're really not difficult. But again, my interest is on designs that won't handle rough grass fields well.
And it's not "self decribed" background. I'm happy to present redacted copies of records. In fact, have already done so in other forums.

Groups (and companies in my experience) that don't effectively use the talent they have tend to run into problems. Again, I approached AMA leadership a year ago to try and get out in front of this safety culture problem among waiver holders. And yes, they wanted nothing to do with it. Now they're a year down the road and it appears the problem has gotten bad enough they can no longer pretend it doesn't exist. Of course it will be that much more difficult to fix now. what I've seen proposed is more of the same. Typically more of what got you into the problem in the first place doesn't make it better. But then again, what do I know about aviation safety and operations, safety culture, operational risk management, etc.?

Just like the above comment, you forgot the unspoken second part. The part that reads ".... but only if you do it in a way that I approve."


Wow. It wasn't more than a couple weeks ago that you offered to nominate me for AMA President. I haven't changed in the interim, all those years of posts that you lament were there then, as they are now. And yet you won't recommend me for the lower level position of Leader Member?
So how could anyone look at that and not see that your Presidential nomination offer as disingenuous. Either you were deliberately misleading a fellow AMA member (saying you'd nominate when you really wouldn't), or you were hoping I'd accept with the hopes I'd lose so you could riducle me like you've ridiculed other fellow AMA members (like Hossfly).

You made a pledge to the AMA to conduct yourself in a way that "befits a leader." That pledge was not limited to only those situations where "you feel like it," nor was it limited to only when people do things they way you want them done. It seems to me the clear AMA's intent is that you act in a way "befits a leader" at all times, not just when it's easy, but also when it's difficult. I see lots of the former, not much of the latter. Others can form their own opinion.

In an interview just this morning, a prominent commentator was asked "Why, if you're a supporter, do you criticize so much?" The response was quite good. The individual said "Those I care about the most get the most criticizm for the simple reason that I want them to be the very best that they can be. Those I don't care about are not worth my time to criticize."

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

And that has worked very well for over 80 years. Until the advent of the "any one can fly" Quads. Still People with a little brain power and can read should be aware of where when and how they can safely fly

If the FAA required all R/Cers to prove they can meet certain criteria of accompaniment to fly R/C there would be 25% of the people flying today selling all their toys. I personally know, that every club I'm in, there many Older guys and flying for as much as 30 years or more that should not be flying. They are a danger to them selves and others. On the other hand they keep hobby shops and Hobby King and others in business.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Did you see how many thousands of people signed up to take the test on the first day? That's a pretty good indication of how many folks are going to be flying. Wonder how many are AMA members, or potential members. But hey, as some folks here have indicated since they can't see them, they don't really exist. And of course the favorite...it doesn't take any skill to fly these things. Wonder if the same could be said of the testing requirements. Doubt it. Some first hand accounts here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2729603