N410DC

This is a good point. I think the 400' ceiling is exceeded virtually every weekend, at every AMA flying site in the country. It's not big "secret," and (as you said,) the FAA has never taken any action, or even complained about the activity. I don't think will ever make an issue about it, unless a modal aircraft endangers the safety of a full-scale aircraft. However, when/if this happens, there will certainly be hell to pay.

HoundDog

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Happened Nere the Sun Valley Aviators PHX field a few years back so them and another club located 3 miles west of Deer Vally airport have been restricted to 400' AGL. Not buy the FAA but the County it's county land.

ira d

IMO the reason the county is doing this is because they think it's the right to do or it's what the FAA wants based on all the misinformation out there.

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Originally Posted by HoundDog

Happened Nere the Sun Valley Aviators PHX field a few years back so them and another club located 3 miles west of Deer Vally airport have been restricted to 400' AGL. Not buy the FAA but the County it's county land.


Exactly Back then the FAA had no jurisdiction over the air space even though Both fields are within 3 to 4 miles of a towered airport with two active flight schools. Service it to say the story ain't over till it's over.

bradpaul

The 400' ceiling debate has been asked amd answered by Rich Hansen of the AMA (post 747,748). To comply with PL 112-95 Sec 336 and be exempt from further FAA regulation you must follow the "programming" of a CBO. As the AMA HAS BEEN REFEREED TO AS A CBO THAT MEETS THE REGULATORY DEFINITION (FFA Interpretation http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_a..._spec_rule.pdf
footnote 7 bottom of page 12). that includes the AMA Safety Code.

Quote:

Hi Brad,

However if you endanger the NAS at any altitude the FAA can take enforcement action. Nothing new there..................... So THERE IS NO OVERALL 400' CEILING IF YOU FOLLOW THE PROGRAMMING OF THE AMA.

Must you be a member of the AMA??????????????? Different question.

N410DC

The 400' restriction within 3 miles of an airport makes since, since full-scale aircraft may be close to 400' AGL when landing or taking off. However, unless an aircraft is landing or taking off, or is experiencing an emergency, the aircraft must remain at least 500' from all people, vehicles, and structures (or higher, is many areas.) Model aircraft pilots do theoretically need to be aware of the "emergency" provision, though. If an full-scale is attempting an emergency landing in a field near a flying site (even on the model aircraft runway itself,) I think the FAA and AMA would agree that all model aircraft must yield to the full-scale aircraft, even if this means intentionally crashing a destroying a model aircraft. In the end, model aircraft pilots need to "see and avoid" full scale aircraft, just as full-scale aircraft pilots do under VFR conditions. A little common sense goes a long way. If I hear a full-scale aircraft in the vicinity while I am flying, I tend to descend a bit until the aircraft is no longer in the area. At our site, when full-scale aircraft are nearby, people who are not flying keep an eye on the aircraft, just in case the aircraft gets a little too close for comfort. One of our members even keeps a hand-held air band transceiver at the field (tuned to the nearby airport's traffic frequency) so we can hear transmissions from (and even communicate with) any aircraft in the area.

Smoking Loon

That's the spirit! Take away everyone's right to fly drones because terrorists could not possibly use r/c planes, helicopters, sail planes etc. to achieve the same goal.

bogbeagle

Not possible. It's illegal to own a nuke.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Worth a look http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/ID/2654753465/

JohnShe

I will not answer your question, it is a non-sequiter.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

ok

GerKonig

Yes, and they sell this tiny tiny nukes in Walmart too! I have to open a tinfoil hat factory!

Gerry

GerKonig

They sell tiny tiny nukes in Walmart! (In case there are people that do not see that i am kidding, I am adding this disclaimer: I am kidding, of course).

Now, if you know where there are available, let me know. I know a lot of people at the DoD that would like to chat with you...;-)

Gerry

Smoking Loon

Forgot your meds. again? Read the post I was replying to and then you may understand the my post.

GerKonig

Oh, I do understand your post, and I agree entirely with you!

I should have written my message with more detail and not assume it would be understood. It is easier to use any other delivery method, agreed. And also, there is no black market of tiny nukes. So the idea of using this kind of delivery or an item that does not exist is completely... well, I will not even qualify it.

Gerry

JerryEl

Not so sure a county rule regulating the NAS could be valid. Only the Fed can regulate airspace and hobbyist's model aircraft are exempt from rules by U.S. Public Law. It's all supposedly a voluntary compliance thing and with safety in mind the FAA and the AMA came up with the present "voluntary rules". At least that's the way I read it from the AMA site.

JerryEl

I wouldn't be too surprised if a terrorist used a hobby aircraft against some building or group of people in the near future. It's just a matter of time. No nukes but they could use a small explosive package on board a multicopter. Some of the hexes can carry a lot of weight and certainly a grenade or two would be possible. But if we banned everything a terrorist could possibly use to create terror we would all be restricted to our residences and the National Guard would be patrolling the streets and airspace. With the terrorists it's all about news coverage. That's why they call it "terror".

bradpaul

The county only has very limited regulation over airspace (zoning, height limits, etc.) however they do control the use of their land and can define terms over who can take off and land a model sircraft on their land. They aern't regulating the NAS, they are controling the use of the land.

JerryEl

Thanks, littlecrankshaf! There are too many hotheads in and out of the AMA who strike out whenever there is some suggestion of a new federal law or rule that affects their, "rights." Many comments on Web forums and YouTube like, "I don't care what the rules are, I'm gonna fly my model like I want." and "The government is taking away to many our rights and invading our privacy."

Then some of the long time model flyers who think these new RTF quadcopters with stabilization and GPS should be banned from the AMA and local flying sites as they are not "real model aircraft." Well...They are here, by the hundreds of thousands according to the industry and there are going to be hundreds more of them as time goes forward. As many have stated, they are not only here to stay but with even more advanced automation, mission planning, and new avoidance devices.

What we as a model community need to do is to make the public aware of the limitations (regarding snooping) and how we are trying to advance safety among model pilots and especially new operators of these aircraft. Below is a copy of a letter I recently sent to the manager of a small private airport near our (non-AMA sanctioned) flying location to further that goal. Although I said it was 4 miles from their airport, from the end of their runway, to the edge of our area, it's just barely over 3 miles.

************************
Dear Sir,

I am writing to advise you of radio controlled model aircraft that may fly from [location removed] about 4 miles NE from your airport. Flights normally will occur only in the afternoons.

Any aircraft flown from this location will follow all suggested rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics and the FAA. In particular stay under 400' AGL and within an area of approximately 1.25 miles (2km) so as not to endanger manned aircraft.

Many of the news reports of "drone" sightings that may be violating the 400' AGL flights have been shown to be false as estimating the height of these small aircraft is very difficult in reality. Most of the model multicopters flying today have live operating telemetry letting the model pilot know all GPS info including speed, altitude, and location. Of course there are idiots out there that do not follow the suggested rules and there are laws on the books to police these violations using various public endangerment laws.

This letter is meant for information purposes only and by following any existing and suggested FAA regulations we are not seeking permission, nor any exemptions to any existing or suggested FAA rules regarding your airport. Rather it just our intention to let any pilots who fly from your airport know that any "sightings" of drones or other small model aircraft that they see in this area are below 400' AGL.

I have held a private pilot's license since 1970, although no longer flying I understand the dangers these model aircraft could possibly be to even small general aviation aircraft and it is in the interest of all model aircraft groups and pilots to spread the word on safe flying so we are not legislated or regulated out of existence.

Sincerely,
************************

The manager did call and thanked me for the, "heads up" and stated that "small drones" popped up in conversations at all their get togethers. We shouldn't be too surprised when Congress addresses this problem in the next session since those members regularly fly in commercial and private aircraft and many are as worried as the general public. Hopefully, by that time the AMA and individuals will have contacted those representatives explaining our thoughts on the subject so they don't get carried away with ridiculous laws or giving the FAA complete authority to regulate model aircraft.

bogbeagle

One of the most important things of which "the public" needs to be aware, is that "you don't own your image".

That, if you are in a place where you can reasonably expect to be observed, then anyone can take your photo ... that your permission is not required ... and that the photo belongs to the owner of the camera.

Sport_Pilot

Local government can and does have the right to limit airspace in airspace under the minimum altitude requirements. I recall some restrictions on banner tow aircraft flying over beach's. The county was fining them when flying under 500 feet, as well as reporting them to the FAA.

Silent-AV8R

Here are the facts:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...-could-be-next

bradpaul

One of the RC Clubs I fly at had a noise complaint that caused the County Land Use Commission to shut the club down. The Club appealed the decision and in the end the county relented but put serious restrictions on flying hours, boundary markers and an altitude limit. They freely admitted that they did not control the airspace, that was the mandate of the FAA, but they did control the use of the land. So if we wanted to have our Club on that property we would have to agree in writing to their restrictions. Bottom line was we found other property and moved the Club.

The local government may not be able to control the airspace, but the can control the use of the land where a RC plane can take off and land.

HoundDog

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JerryE:
I don't mean to start a war here (Well maybe a little one) but What self Respecting Terrorist would mess around with something that is as complicated as an RC plane when Suicide Vest and massive 1 ton truck and car bombs are much more effective and a lot Easier to obtain in quantity. JMHO

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

JerryE:
I don't mean to start a war here (Well maybe a little one) but What self Respecting Terrorist would mess around with something that is as complicated as an RC plane when Suicide Vest and massive 1 ton truck and car bombs are much more effective and a lot Easier to obtain in quantity. JMHO