Economic comparison
05-31-2016, 02:26 AM
#26
Thread Starter
Okay guys, how is this for a way to keep the club listing on the AMA website accurate:
1) Every club that wants to be listed on the AMA website MUST submit accurate club and contact information by a specific date to the AMA assigned webmaster
2) Any club that does not sent in updated information for the club by the given date will be sent a hard letter, not email, informing the club of being delinquent and given a reply by date to respond
3) Any club not responding as per #2 above will be deleted from the club listing on the AMA website by the end of the following week.
Now you have an accurate listing process that REQUIRES the club to respond and the AMA to remove any club that doesn't. Any Objections?
1) Every club that wants to be listed on the AMA website MUST submit accurate club and contact information by a specific date to the AMA assigned webmaster
2) Any club that does not sent in updated information for the club by the given date will be sent a hard letter, not email, informing the club of being delinquent and given a reply by date to respond
3) Any club not responding as per #2 above will be deleted from the club listing on the AMA website by the end of the following week.
Now you have an accurate listing process that REQUIRES the club to respond and the AMA to remove any club that doesn't. Any Objections?
05-31-2016, 02:51 AM
#27
Thread Starter
Good job on the economic comparison. While your comparison includes gasoline, you neglected vehicle wear and tear, depreciation, maintenance, increased chances of an accident, etc.
Based on your economic comparison, what lifestyle changes will you be making and when do you plan to implement them?
Based on your economic comparison, what lifestyle changes will you be making and when do you plan to implement them?
Good point on the maintenance. It's non zero to be sure, but I considered it small and more challenging to quantify in relation to the other issues for the purposes of this comparison.
As to what lifestyle changes? Now that I've built a rig to carry more than one helo to the park, I'll probably fly more. I'll add some additional pieces that make it easy to carry a plane or two as well. Once I get my 600 sized nitro burner ready, I'll add a way to carry that and fuel as well. I can't fly at the park (too small), but the local school has a huge open space, and that's only about a 200 yard walk.
05-31-2016, 04:37 AM
#28
Banned
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Good point on the maintenance. It's non zero to be sure, but I considered it small and more challenging to quantify in relation to the other issues for the purposes of this comparison.
As to what lifestyle changes? Now that I've built a rig to carry more than one helo to the park, I'll probably fly more. I'll add some additional pieces that make it easy to carry a plane or two as well. Once I get my 600 sized nitro burner ready, I'll add a way to carry that and fuel as well. I can't fly at the park (too small), but the local school has a huge open space, and that's only about a 200 yard walk.
As to what lifestyle changes? Now that I've built a rig to carry more than one helo to the park, I'll probably fly more. I'll add some additional pieces that make it easy to carry a plane or two as well. Once I get my 600 sized nitro burner ready, I'll add a way to carry that and fuel as well. I can't fly at the park (too small), but the local school has a huge open space, and that's only about a 200 yard walk.
05-31-2016, 05:01 AM
#29
Thread Starter
Have you flown at the school property yet, if so did anyone ever come out and have an issue with it? I've seen posts from other folks, usually from heli folks getting hassled at school fields. one of them was flying during school hours, so it's not surprising the school would have an issue with it.
About three months ago, I flew a large EDF there, and although staff was around (after school hours, no school events or kids on field), nobody said a thing. There's two guys flying sailplanes here about once a month for the seven years I've lived here. I stopped by to talk with them one weekend not long after I moved here. They left the club because it was too expensive and they learned they didn't need it to fly. In fact, there's no altitude limit at the school, where there's a 600' cap at the AMA field.
They let people hit golf balls, walk dogs, etc. All of which is during non school hours / no athletic events. It seems people are generally being smart about it.
05-31-2016, 05:26 AM
#30
Banned
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A couple years back, I flew my CL FliteStreak at the school, and a couple walking their dog came over to check it out. I had an 0.049 flat wing plane that I brought along, and put the husband on the handle for a bit. He said that he was always interested in trying it, and thanked me.
About three months ago, I flew a large EDF there, and although staff was around (after school hours, no school events or kids on field), nobody said a thing. There's two guys flying sailplanes here about once a month for the seven years I've lived here. I stopped by to talk with them one weekend not long after I moved here. They left the club because it was too expensive and they learned they didn't need it to fly. In fact, there's no altitude limit at the school, where there's a 600' cap at the AMA field.
They let people hit golf balls, walk dogs, etc. All of which is during non school hours / no athletic events. It seems people are generally being smart about it.
About three months ago, I flew a large EDF there, and although staff was around (after school hours, no school events or kids on field), nobody said a thing. There's two guys flying sailplanes here about once a month for the seven years I've lived here. I stopped by to talk with them one weekend not long after I moved here. They left the club because it was too expensive and they learned they didn't need it to fly. In fact, there's no altitude limit at the school, where there's a 600' cap at the AMA field.
They let people hit golf balls, walk dogs, etc. All of which is during non school hours / no athletic events. It seems people are generally being smart about it.
I fly at a few fields around here when I don't feel like making the trek to my field, and I've met some great people that way. I usually have my clubs card on hand to give them, or other clubs info depending on where they live. I picked up a box of cheap gliders on Amazon a few years back and hand those out too, only if parents are around. People don't think they can fly something until they try, and the buddy box gives them a certain measure of confidence.
05-31-2016, 05:44 AM
#31
Thread Starter
It's funny you mention the golf thing, some of the parks around here specifically list that as something that is not allowed. I get the reason why, nobody wants to get clocked by a ball, but for the most part I've only seen guys using foam or plastic balls.
I fly at a few fields around here when I don't feel like making the trek to my field, and I've met some great people that way. I usually have my clubs card on hand to give them, or other clubs info depending on where they live. I picked up a box of cheap gliders on Amazon a few years back and hand those out too, only if parents are around. People don't think they can fly something until they try, and the buddy box gives them a certain measure of confidence.
I fly at a few fields around here when I don't feel like making the trek to my field, and I've met some great people that way. I usually have my clubs card on hand to give them, or other clubs info depending on where they live. I picked up a box of cheap gliders on Amazon a few years back and hand those out too, only if parents are around. People don't think they can fly something until they try, and the buddy box gives them a certain measure of confidence.
I make sure to call the class D tower everytime I fly, even if in my yard below the roof of my house (say hover checks for blade tracking etc.). Having experience with full scale makes it easier, as I can give the info that makes it easy for them: VOR radial and distance, visual landmark for traffic flying VFR, and use the proper aviation phonetic alphabet when giving them name and contact info. I can't help but think that gives them confidence that the person they're talking to (me) knows what the heck I'm doing. When I called yesterday, the guy even said "Oh, you called yesterday right?" Now, I'm hopeful that if I call a bunch, they'll be a bit more willing to enter into a memorandum of agreement whereby I won't need to call anymore provided I stay within agreed upon operational parameters (easy given that I"m mostly flying helos these days).
05-31-2016, 05:56 AM
#32
Banned
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Oh ya...the beater is a necessity. I usually keep an old skysurfer/bixler plane with me and that's the one that gets on the box. Easy to fly, can float like a dream, and if it crashes, some CA or Foam Tac and it's good as new.
Agree on more information typically being better, especially with regards to civilian aircraft and towers. Case in point, I attended a sailplane/gilder event recently. Tugs brought the planes up to 1000 feet or so, and some soared up to 1500 feet. The club is over 11 miles to the closest tower. I've been to the club and have never seen a civilian aircraft around. Apparently a Blackhawk cruising around reported two of the gliders to the local tower. They noted both of them to be yellow in color, at 1500 feet There were no yellow gliders at the event). The fliers saw the helo, but it wasn't that close to the field and continued to fly on. 30 minutes later, a State Trooper pulls into the field, the tower had filed a report with them. He talks to the CD, figures out what's going on, and he stayed and watched for a few minutes, then off he went. Perhaps a pure coincidence, but a CAP 172 came by about 30 minutes later and circled the field, then went on it's way. Next year they are going to send a notice to that tower letting them know they have an event going on, I suggested they try for a NOTAM as well. Notifying the tower (although not required) might have circumvented the reporting and visit by the trooper.
Agree on more information typically being better, especially with regards to civilian aircraft and towers. Case in point, I attended a sailplane/gilder event recently. Tugs brought the planes up to 1000 feet or so, and some soared up to 1500 feet. The club is over 11 miles to the closest tower. I've been to the club and have never seen a civilian aircraft around. Apparently a Blackhawk cruising around reported two of the gliders to the local tower. They noted both of them to be yellow in color, at 1500 feet There were no yellow gliders at the event). The fliers saw the helo, but it wasn't that close to the field and continued to fly on. 30 minutes later, a State Trooper pulls into the field, the tower had filed a report with them. He talks to the CD, figures out what's going on, and he stayed and watched for a few minutes, then off he went. Perhaps a pure coincidence, but a CAP 172 came by about 30 minutes later and circled the field, then went on it's way. Next year they are going to send a notice to that tower letting them know they have an event going on, I suggested they try for a NOTAM as well. Notifying the tower (although not required) might have circumvented the reporting and visit by the trooper.
05-31-2016, 06:08 AM
#33
Good point on the maintenance. It's non zero to be sure, but I considered it small and more challenging to quantify in relation to the other issues for the purposes of this comparison.
I wouldn't consider it small. Brakes, tires, etc. all add up. Best thing to do is break it down on a per mile basis.
As to what lifestyle changes?
If your cost/benefit analysis determines it's not worthwhile to be an AMA member and not belong to a local club then is your work done here?
Now that I've built a rig to carry more than one helo to the park, I'll probably fly more. I'll add some additional pieces that make it easy to carry a plane or two as well. Once I get my 600 sized nitro burner ready, I'll add a way to carry that and fuel as well. I can't fly at the park (too small), but the local school has a huge open space, and that's only about a 200 yard walk.
I wouldn't consider it small. Brakes, tires, etc. all add up. Best thing to do is break it down on a per mile basis.
As to what lifestyle changes?
If your cost/benefit analysis determines it's not worthwhile to be an AMA member and not belong to a local club then is your work done here?
Now that I've built a rig to carry more than one helo to the park, I'll probably fly more. I'll add some additional pieces that make it easy to carry a plane or two as well. Once I get my 600 sized nitro burner ready, I'll add a way to carry that and fuel as well. I can't fly at the park (too small), but the local school has a huge open space, and that's only about a 200 yard walk.
05-31-2016, 06:45 AM
#34
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Here's my situation. 2 AMA Chartered Club flying sites within 30 to 40 minutes travel time. Paved 600 to 800 foot long runways. Both require AMA. One club is $40 per year the other $100. One has altitude limits due to being close to an airport. The other has no altitude or noise limits.
I do not own anything that could be flown in a local park (mostly 50cc and larger gasoline planes) and RC aircraft of all types are banned in all parks in my County. Plus all the local school districts restrict RC airplanes and public access to their land.
So I guess the only reasonable solution is to stop flying the planes I like and move to a place where park/school flying is allowed. This will be a bit inconvenient for my employment, and that of my wife, but who cares. Franklin says flying small electrics in local parks is the way to go!!! His economic analysis "proves" it!!!
I do not own anything that could be flown in a local park (mostly 50cc and larger gasoline planes) and RC aircraft of all types are banned in all parks in my County. Plus all the local school districts restrict RC airplanes and public access to their land.
So I guess the only reasonable solution is to stop flying the planes I like and move to a place where park/school flying is allowed. This will be a bit inconvenient for my employment, and that of my wife, but who cares. Franklin says flying small electrics in local parks is the way to go!!! His economic analysis "proves" it!!!
05-31-2016, 07:00 AM
#35
Here's my situation. 2 AMA Chartered Club flying sites within 30 to 40 minutes travel time. Paved 600 to 800 foot long runways. Both require AMA. One club is $40 per year the other $100. One has altitude limits due to being close to an airport. The other has no altitude or noise limits.
I do not own anything that could be flown in a local park (mostly 50cc and larger gasoline planes) and RC aircraft of all types are banned in all parks in my County. Plus all the local school districts restrict RC airplanes and public access to their land.
So I guess the only reasonable solution is to stop flying the planes I like and move to a place where park/school flying is allowed. This will be a bit inconvenient for my employment, and that of my wife, but who cares. Franklin says flying small electrics in local parks is the way to go!!! His economic analysis "proves" it!!!
I do not own anything that could be flown in a local park (mostly 50cc and larger gasoline planes) and RC aircraft of all types are banned in all parks in my County. Plus all the local school districts restrict RC airplanes and public access to their land.
So I guess the only reasonable solution is to stop flying the planes I like and move to a place where park/school flying is allowed. This will be a bit inconvenient for my employment, and that of my wife, but who cares. Franklin says flying small electrics in local parks is the way to go!!! His economic analysis "proves" it!!!
05-31-2016, 07:45 AM
#36
Thread Starter
Here's my situation. 2 AMA Chartered Club flying sites within 30 to 40 minutes travel time. Paved 600 to 800 foot long runways. Both require AMA. One club is $40 per year the other $100. One has altitude limits due to being close to an airport. The other has no altitude or noise limits.
I do not own anything that could be flown in a local park (mostly 50cc and larger gasoline planes) and RC aircraft of all types are banned in all parks in my County. Plus all the local school districts restrict RC airplanes and public access to their land.
So I guess the only reasonable solution is to stop flying the planes I like and move to a place where park/school flying is allowed. This will be a bit inconvenient for my employment, and that of my wife, but who cares. Franklin says flying small electrics in local parks is the way to go!!! His economic analysis "proves" it!!!
I do not own anything that could be flown in a local park (mostly 50cc and larger gasoline planes) and RC aircraft of all types are banned in all parks in my County. Plus all the local school districts restrict RC airplanes and public access to their land.
So I guess the only reasonable solution is to stop flying the planes I like and move to a place where park/school flying is allowed. This will be a bit inconvenient for my employment, and that of my wife, but who cares. Franklin says flying small electrics in local parks is the way to go!!! His economic analysis "proves" it!!!
05-31-2016, 07:46 AM
#37
Thread Starter
05-31-2016, 07:57 AM
#38
05-31-2016, 08:20 AM
#39
Thread Starter
One of the books I use in consulting teaches that if you want to incentivize a behavior, you have to make it easy. If getting to a place to fly is too far, too expensive, or second class facilities, people will chose to put their time elsewhere. So it's in that sense that I made the comment that I think the AMA will have to address it sooner or later.
05-31-2016, 08:54 AM
#41
Because one of the things that matters to me is how easy it is to find a place to fly. Simply put, if I can easily fly, I fly more often, and isn't that the holy grail of "participating" in the hobby? Part of "access" is distance. Part of "access" is cost. Part of "access" is facilities. I'd likely fly different types of airplanes if I had a paved runway, but I don't. So I chose a different direction, one that gets me much more flying per dollar/distance traveled/etc.
Perhaps I missed it, but where is it stated in the AMA's mission statement that the AMA's role is to provide convenient low cost flying sites to members? Better yet, where is is stated on their 501(c)(3) application as a a purpose of their organization?
One of the books I use in consulting teaches that if you want to incentivize a behavior, you have to make it easy. If getting to a place to fly is too far, too expensive, or second class facilities, people will chose to put their time elsewhere. So it's in that sense that I made the comment that I think the AMA will have to address it sooner or later.
The AMA has already incentivized model aircraft activities by offering clubs the ability to get insurance coverage for land owners for flying sites. What does your book say about individuals taking personal responsibility for achieving goals?
Perhaps I missed it, but where is it stated in the AMA's mission statement that the AMA's role is to provide convenient low cost flying sites to members? Better yet, where is is stated on their 501(c)(3) application as a a purpose of their organization?
One of the books I use in consulting teaches that if you want to incentivize a behavior, you have to make it easy. If getting to a place to fly is too far, too expensive, or second class facilities, people will chose to put their time elsewhere. So it's in that sense that I made the comment that I think the AMA will have to address it sooner or later.
The AMA has already incentivized model aircraft activities by offering clubs the ability to get insurance coverage for land owners for flying sites. What does your book say about individuals taking personal responsibility for achieving goals?
05-31-2016, 09:05 AM
#42
Thread Starter
The nearest paved runway is 60 miles one way. I don't need nor want to fly something that requires pavement to make that trek. So I looked for something closer, and found that the school was ok with my flying as was the local park.
05-31-2016, 09:09 AM
#43
Take this thread for example.
Look at how they can take such a simple, matter of fact observation on your part and turn it into a full blown Congressional Hearing where your motives, your integrity, your wisdom, etc. are questioned instead of simply providing examples of their own situations [in this case, field access] and being content to leave it at that.
Believe me, if you could just stop giving them the time of day, they will seek a new host to feed off of.
05-31-2016, 09:09 AM
#44
Thread Starter
Perhaps I missed it, but where is it stated in the AMA's mission statement that the AMA's role is to provide convenient low cost flying sites to members? Better yet, where is is stated on their 501(c)(3) application as a a purpose of their organization?
Fair enough, but I contend that if nobody is flying because they can't get easy access to flying sites, doesn't that eliminate any possible need to be a member of the AMA?
The AMA has already incentivized model aircraft activities by offering clubs the ability to get insurance coverage for land owners for flying sites.
Again, but if they're too far away or too expensive, will more people use them? Or fewer? If the latter, at what point will they collapse under the economics? On the other hand, if you can fly within walking distance, and are happy living with the limitations due to size and type, again, no need for AMA membership to enjoy the hobby.
Fair enough, but I contend that if nobody is flying because they can't get easy access to flying sites, doesn't that eliminate any possible need to be a member of the AMA?
The AMA has already incentivized model aircraft activities by offering clubs the ability to get insurance coverage for land owners for flying sites.
Again, but if they're too far away or too expensive, will more people use them? Or fewer? If the latter, at what point will they collapse under the economics? On the other hand, if you can fly within walking distance, and are happy living with the limitations due to size and type, again, no need for AMA membership to enjoy the hobby.
05-31-2016, 09:10 AM
#45
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I am in a similar situation as Franklin. Baseball fields less than a block from my house and the Elementary School 1/4 mile away with lots of land to fly from. Plus I can fly from the top of a 1000 AGL hill 3.5 miles away with 20+ miles visibility. My club field is exactly 22 miles from my driveway to the club field. 14 of those miles are twisty, up and down back roads (beautiful drive). 44 miles round trip. I don't get there a lot, but it is where I fly all my glo planes and my 450 heli. It's also a beuatiful field in the middle of absolutely nowhere. It's nice to have a private field where you know you don't have to worry about anybody bothering you or getting in the way. It also gives me a comfortable place to teach my son to fly without any distractions. I guess I like having the best of both worlds; fields close to home and a private AMA field I can use whenever I want if I don't mind the drive. I will say my club dues are less than 1/2 what Franklin pays and that includes my sons junior membership.
05-31-2016, 09:11 AM
#46
Thread Starter
Franklin...why do you continue to give these guys an audience...?
Take this thread for example.
Look at how they can take such a simple, matter of fact observation on your part and turn it into a full blown Congressional Hearing where your motives, your integrity, your wisdom, etc. are questioned instead of simply providing examples of their own situations [in this case, field access] and being content to leave it at that.
Believe me, if you could just stop giving them the time of day, they will seek a new host to feed off of.
Take this thread for example.
Look at how they can take such a simple, matter of fact observation on your part and turn it into a full blown Congressional Hearing where your motives, your integrity, your wisdom, etc. are questioned instead of simply providing examples of their own situations [in this case, field access] and being content to leave it at that.
Believe me, if you could just stop giving them the time of day, they will seek a new host to feed off of.
05-31-2016, 09:54 AM
#47
Fair enough, but I contend that if nobody is flying because they can't get easy access to flying sites, doesn't that eliminate any possible need to be a member of the AMA?
That's a personal choice decision. Lots of folks are AMA members who choose to do so just to support the organization.
Again, but if they're too far away or too expensive, will more people use them? Or fewer? If the latter, at what point will they collapse under the economics? On the other hand, if you can fly within walking distance, and are happy living with the limitations due to size and type, again, no need for AMA membership to enjoy the hobby.
Again, that's a personal choice decision. Too expensive and too far is different for different people.
The AMA, state governments, and the federal government incentivize individuals to organize for the purpose enjoying model aircraft activities. What individuals do with that incentive is a personal choice decision. Some clubs have enjoyed decades of great success and others have failed miserably. What sets them apart is the people involved. Just imagine if Elon gave up after his first or even hundredth failure.
05-31-2016, 09:55 AM
#48
05-31-2016, 09:59 AM
#49
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Neither do I. Why would you assume that such a "need" existed in the first place??
I do indeed enjoy flying larger planes and shall continue doing so, especially now that I have your approval.
Yes, you are. Just like those that only fly simple fixed wing ASEL planes are lesser aviators than the Fighter Jock Gods who fly around at supersonic speeds !!
No, what you did was provide your biased view of a situation based on nothing other than your preconceived notions of the hobby. Calling it an "analysis" is laughable at best.
If you enjoy flying the bigger stuff, more power to you, and you obviously need to pay to play.
For those that don't though, are we somehow lesser members?
The economic analysis wasn't proof of anything, nor was it intended to be such, and I certainly never indicated that it was. I simply provided a side by side comparison of the pro's and con's.
05-31-2016, 10:10 AM
#50
Thread Starter
Neither do I. Why would you assume that such a "need" existed in the first place??
I do indeed enjoy flying larger planes and shall continue doing so, especially now that I have your approval.
Yes, you are. Just like those that only fly simple fixed wing ASEL planes are lesser aviators than the Fighter Jock Gods who fly around at supersonic speeds !!
No, what you did was provide your biased view of a situation based on nothing other than your preconceived notions of the hobby. Calling it an "analysis" is laughable at best.
I do indeed enjoy flying larger planes and shall continue doing so, especially now that I have your approval.
Yes, you are. Just like those that only fly simple fixed wing ASEL planes are lesser aviators than the Fighter Jock Gods who fly around at supersonic speeds !!
No, what you did was provide your biased view of a situation based on nothing other than your preconceived notions of the hobby. Calling it an "analysis" is laughable at best.