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FAA: CBO Membership NOT required to comply with 336

Old 09-01-2016, 10:37 AM
  #451  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
Nothing to be concerned about, just a delusion of AMA management. Maybe we should be concerned about delusional management instead.
BTW, as if you didn't notice, clearly some of the membership have spoken up about it.
A delusion of AMA management...not sure what that means, it makes no sense. Who do you feel is the AMA management though, do you mean the EC? Be more specific, it's helps folks understand what new conspiracy, complaint, or shortfalls now being lobbed at the AMA.

BTW, If by "some" you mean about 3 people or 4, then yes, I acknowledge that that "some" people have spoken up (sorry, questioned) it. Almost an equal amount were concerned with the cost of yellow sticky pads and BIC pens at Muncie versus money being handed out to clubs at will! Not exactly a consensus issue there is it?

It reminds me of the HUGE outrage over the "loss" of the AMA vision and direction, and the allegations of the AMA losing sight of it's core members ( which has resulted in a "take back the hobby" cries). All that turmoil and angst and what, a couple hundred people at best "signed" on to the great letter to the AMA authored by those 14 folks representing "traditional" modeling. That might actually be generous number, since the effort sort of evaporated in the ether, never to be heard from again. Someone started a "petition" which if I remember correctly Mike used to link to as part of his sig line, well that one went goodbye as well, both from his sig line, and significance. Perhaps 900 responses for both efforts...so ya by all means, let's talk about some numbers.

Wait...900...that's about the same amount of new MR pilots the AMA got from the Best Buy program. Coincidence...I think not!
Old 09-01-2016, 12:15 PM
  #452  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
As far as field lay out the AMA makes recommendations on suggested lay out. In order to be covered by insurance all the Safety Rules must be adhered too.

Mike
As far as I'm aware, any safety violations would be the call of our clubs safety coordinator, unless local law enforcement was called to the scene of an accident. Who else am I overlooking that would be in a position to make that call? Here's the AMA's recommended duties for club safety coordinator ,as provided in the AMA insider.

Section 4. Safety Coordinator
To promote increased safety awareness on the part of all members, improve the public perception of modeling as a safe and desirable sport, and provide a means by which important safety information can be shared between clubs, AMA chartered clubs will be required to establish the position of Safety Coordinator. This person will act as a communications liaison between the club and AMA Headquarters to ensure timely distribution of safety related material. The Club Safety Coordinator must have E-mail access.
Recommended Duties:
1) Provide a communications link between AMA and clubs in matters related to safety.
2) Act as a safety advisor and resource manager for the club and its members.
3) Assist AMA in the establishment of a national safety program to reduce accidents/incidents.
4) Develop, promote, and encourage a climate of safety awareness within AMA clubs.
Safety Coordinator activities may include the following:


  • Inspect operational areas for proper signage and safety equipment as applicable.
  • Distribute AMA Accident/Incident Report Forms and ensure they are properly used.
  • Conduct safety awareness training and related programs during club meetings.
  • Conduct, at least annually, a safety audit of club facilities, equipment, and grounds to ensure everything is in good working order and safe for normal use by members and the public.
  • Act as a liaison with the local EMS/Fire Department.
  • Establish a club emergency action plan to handle serious accidents/incidents.
  • Coordinate appropriate first-aid training for members using qualified instructors.
  • Develop an appropriate communications plan to assist club officers and members.
  • Review emergency procedures (fire and rescue) with club members on an annual basis.
Note: This list is provided to illustrate the range of activities a Safety Coordinator could engage in. Authority to enforce the AMA Safety Code or any additional club safety rules should be contained in the club bylaws in accordance with your individual situation.
Old 09-01-2016, 12:28 PM
  #453  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
As far as I'm aware, any safety violations would be the call of our clubs safety coordinator, unless local law enforcement was called to the scene of an accident. Who else am I overlooking that would be in a position to make that call? Here's the AMA's recommended duties for club safety coordinator ,as provided in the AMA insider.
It's a partnership between the AMA and clubs, rarely is LE involved. Like most things involving the AMA and clubs, the clubs have significant autonomy. So yes, you are correct, it's the club's call in almost all instances. And no, contrary to the poster you quoted, not every rule and reg must be strictly adhered to in order to get coverage. That's misinformation.
Old 09-01-2016, 01:10 PM
  #454  
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Some folks would have you to believe that the AMA is like the all-knowing eye.
Old 09-01-2016, 01:14 PM
  #455  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
And no, contrary to the poster you quoted, not every rule and reg must be strictly adhered to in order to get coverage.
Perhaps you could identify to us the rules and regs that "must be strictly adhered to" as compared to those that are optional?
Old 09-01-2016, 01:15 PM
  #456  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
Some folks would have you to believe that the AMA is like the all-knowing eye.
Oh god, that would probably be giving them far to much credit...at least for some, here.

I've heard corrupt, inept, out of touch with reality, and more recently intimidators and liars. And that's not even going over how much Muncie spends on pens, pencils, and sticky pads!
Old 09-01-2016, 01:16 PM
  #457  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
As far as I'm aware, any safety violations would be the call of our clubs safety coordinator, unless local law enforcement was called to the scene of an accident. Who else am I overlooking that would be in a position to make that call? Here's the AMA's recommended duties for club safety coordinator ,as provided in the AMA insider.
Try and file a insurance claim if any of the Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code (which you along with your club agrees to when you summit your renewals) is not adhered to and see how far it goes.

Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 09-01-2016 at 01:19 PM.
Old 09-01-2016, 01:21 PM
  #458  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Perhaps you could identify to us the rules and regs that "must be strictly adhered to" as compared to those that are optional?
Exactly. There is no option.

Mike
Old 09-01-2016, 01:23 PM
  #459  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
Some folks would have you to believe that the AMA is like the all-knowing eye.
Never said there was but when it comes to the Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code you along with your club have no choice.but to abide by them.
Please don't take my word why not contact the AMA and ask? I can tell you exactly what they will say.
Mike
Old 09-01-2016, 01:23 PM
  #460  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Oh god, that would probably be giving them far to much credit...at least for some, here.
I was thinking more along the lines of how the AMA apparently knows if and when you're violating one of their exclusive safety rules, or even when a non member is following them.
Old 09-01-2016, 01:27 PM
  #461  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Perhaps you could identify to us the rules and regs that "must be strictly adhered to" as compared to those that are optional?
Case by case is what it boils down to. Mike's just throwing out an absolute statement (opinion actually) that's just not factually correct, he couldn't possibly know how the process works every time since he's not involved, so he really shouldn't be spreading more misinformation.
Old 09-01-2016, 01:28 PM
  #462  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
I was thinking more along the lines of how the AMA apparently knows if and when you're violating one of their exclusive safety rules, or even when a non member is following them.
They know when you've been naughty, they know when you've been nice......
Old 09-01-2016, 01:40 PM
  #463  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Try and file a insurance claim if any of the Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code (which you along with your club agrees to when you summit your renewals) is not adhered to and see how far it goes.

Mike
Interesting, have you been involved in that process? Because it seems like you're making another guess here as to how things might go, rather than knowing exactly what happened and how the coverage will/won't apply.

Originally Posted by rcmiket
Exactly. There is no option.

Mike

You are incorrect.


Originally Posted by rcmiket
Never said there was but when it comes to the Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code you along with your club have no choice.but to abide by them.
Please don't take my word why not contact the AMA and ask? I can tell you exactly what they will say.
Mike
That is about the best suggestion I've seen in these threads for a while. Basically, call the experts, call the pros...the people who handle these matters day in and day out. Don't rely on second or third hand stories or opinions. Everyone should follow that advice, absolutely. But, I wouldn't expect much in the way of an answer if anyone's calling to give a "hey, what if X happened at my field, would I be covered"? You won't get an answer.

The safety codes by both entities should absolutely be followed, but when it comes to accidents and claims, there is no template used in determining when/if coverage would be afforded, its case by case. Exceptions are always made.
Old 09-01-2016, 02:32 PM
  #464  
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Originally Posted by Tipover
I was thinking more along the lines of how the AMA apparently knows if and when you're violating one of their exclusive safety rules, or even when a non member is following them.
As I said pick up the phone and ask. You'll get all kinds of takes on this here better get it from the horse mouth. I'll promise you they will ask on the Safety Code. This insurance is like all other insurance polices, written to get out of paying. That's how they stay in business.

Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 09-01-2016 at 02:35 PM.
Old 09-01-2016, 03:10 PM
  #465  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Perhaps you could identify to us the rules and regs that "must be strictly adhered to" as compared to those that are optional?
You know that, it's rule #1. "You can't fly here without AMA!" Universally enforced at chartered club flying sites. The rest are more or less optional depending on whether Deputy Fife (every club has at least one) is on site.
Old 09-01-2016, 03:10 PM
  #466  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Try and file a insurance claim if any of the Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code (which you along with your club agrees to when you summit your renewals) is not adhered to and see how far it goes.

Mike
Can you point to any claims you know of that have been rejected specifically for not following the Safety Code?? I know of claims paid where the person was NOT strictly following the Safety Code, so go figure.
Old 09-01-2016, 03:17 PM
  #467  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R
Can you point to any claims you know of that have been rejected specifically for not following the Safety Code?? I know of claims paid where the person was NOT strictly following the Safety Code, so go figure.
I'd love to hear about it.

Mike
Old 09-01-2016, 04:05 PM
  #468  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Case by case is what it boils down to. Mike's just throwing out an absolute statement (opinion actually) that's just not factually correct, he couldn't possibly know how the process works every time since he's not involved, so he really shouldn't be spreading more misinformation.
Case by case eh?

And who has the authority to decide which rules and regs "must be strictly adhered to" and which do not?
Where is that authority delegated?
Is that the individual AMA member?
Does it have to be done in advance?
Is it done at club level?
Does the waiver have to be in writing?

What prevents someone from just waiving some, many, or even all the rules?
Old 09-01-2016, 04:08 PM
  #469  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
You know that, it's rule #1. "You can't fly here without AMA!" Universally enforced at chartered club flying sites. The rest are more or less optional depending on whether Deputy Fife (every club has at least one) is on site.
I'm a big believer in waiver authority, but there's got to be some structure and accountability behind it or it's just a license to do whatever you want. I could waiver all sorts of things at my base, and would when I felt it appropriate. But that authority was limited to me, and even my authority was not unlimited. Some required higher review. But my point is there was a structure to govern waivers. They were routinely reviewed to unsure the culture had not drifted too far.
Old 09-01-2016, 04:11 PM
  #470  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R
Can you point to any claims you know of that have been rejected specifically for not following the Safety Code?? I know of claims paid where the person was NOT strictly following the Safety Code, so go figure.
How in the world could Mike possibly answer that. AMA wont' share membership demographics with members, let alone detailed claims history and results of litigation. Also, it's not the AMA deciding whether to pay the claim or not (largely), it's the insurance company. And the insurance company is accountable to their shareholders, so they don't pay claims just to be nice.
Old 09-01-2016, 04:17 PM
  #471  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Case by case eh?

And who has the authority to decide which rules and regs "must be strictly adhered to" and which do not?
Where is that authority delegated?
Is that the individual AMA member?
Does it have to be done in advance?
Is it done at club level?
Does the waiver have to be in writing?

What prevents someone from just waiving some, many, or even all the rules?
Exactly. I read though the insurance stuff on the site and didn't see anything about any leeway as far as following rules that are in place.

"must be strictly adhered to" doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room does it?

Mike
Old 09-01-2016, 04:21 PM
  #472  
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[QUOTE=franklin_m;12253441]How in the world could Mike possibly answer that. AMA wont' share membership demographics with members, let alone detailed claims history and results of litigation. Also, it's not the AMA deciding whether to pay the claim or not (largely), it's the insurance company. And the insurance company is accountable to their shareholders, so they don't pay claims just to be nice.[/QUOTE

I've dealt with enough insurance claims and companies to have a clear understanding of how and why they operate the way they do. They are by no means a charity or Non-Profit.

Mike
Old 09-01-2016, 04:54 PM
  #473  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Originally Posted by franklin_m
How in the world could Mike possibly answer that. AMA wont' share membership demographics with members, let alone detailed claims history and results of litigation. Also, it's not the AMA deciding whether to pay the claim or not (largely), it's the insurance company. And the insurance company is accountable to their shareholders, so they don't pay claims just to be nice.
I've dealt with enough insurance claims and companies to have a clear understanding of how and why they operate the way they do. They are by no means a charity or Non-Profit.

Mike
Agree 100%. I know you're right. I thought the challenge to "prove it" was unfair given that there's no way you'd have access to that info. I'm guessing only the EC does.
Old 09-01-2016, 04:56 PM
  #474  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Case by case eh?

And who has the authority to decide which rules and regs "must be strictly adhered to" and which do not?
Where is that authority delegated?
Is that the individual AMA member?
Does it have to be done in advance?
Is it done at club level?
Does the waiver have to be in writing?

What prevents someone from just waiving some, many, or even all the rules?
You already knew the answer to those questions, in fact you gave it with your response to Silent in post 470. You summed it up rather nicely.
Old 09-01-2016, 05:07 PM
  #475  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Agree 100%. I know you're right. I thought the challenge to "prove it" was unfair given that there's no way you'd have access to that info. I'm guessing only the EC does.
Given his repeated comments about claims, and insurance companies, and alluding to knowing how it all works, specifically with regards to denials, the question Silent asked was a fair one. Did he have an actual example, in other words a claim he was specifically involved in. How is that an unfair question? Not a generalization, or a "I heard about this happening at another club" story, but an actual situation he knew of. Silent didn't ask him for AMA insurance info that the EC has, not event close. Silent gave a specific example he knew of, the response to that was "I'd love to hear about it". Right, I'm sure he would, but won't answer a question to back up his own assertion that a claim will only be honored if ALL rules and regs are complied with. That's patently and demonstrably false. Silent knows otherwise, as do I as years ago a member of our club violated not only AMA but club safety rules and after his HO limits were exhausted, the AMA paid an additional $90k.

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