ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Sorry if this has been covered, but I don't have the time to keep up with all the posts in this forum.

When I signed up with the AMA, I purchased a product. That product was the ability to join a club. As time has passed, the product has increased it's value as I take advantage of other aspects of the hobby. Competition, etc.
Instead of decreasing the rate, has the AMA identified the product that would attract these PF'ers? Seriously, a rate drop AIN'T gonna increase memberships. If you'll pay $29, you'll pay $58. But why? What reason does a PF'er have to buy membership at any fee?
Well, they would be purchasing the same product I do, but it doesn't get their attention. So what does/could AMA offer that WOULD increase PF'er memberships?
Seriously, I don't have an answer. Why do they even need to be members? Freq. control? Ok, I'll give you that one. What else? Clubs? That's a current product. E-clubs? Well, it's already the right of individual clubs to choose what can be flown at their field. I'd argue the ability to start an E-club already exist.
Seems to me like the AMA is offering something to a small group that should have been offered to everybody. The option of a lower rate without the rag. That'd keep the MA people on their toes!

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Thats precisely the question the Executive Council is asking themselves right now. What can we give the parkflyers that will make them want to join.

Dave Brown wants to start setting up E-fields all over the place first, and then make efforts to get the parkflyers to fly there, and eventually down the road, actually define parkflyer.
OK...how do you set one up. What types of planes are allowed to fly there. How do you know what types of facilities to put in if you dont know what types of aircraft are going to be flying there? Who's gonna manage it? Who's gonna maintain it?


Here's what I think needs to happen first.

1. Define parkflyer!!!! This has to be done.
2. AMA needs to adopt a specific set of competition rules for indoor electric pattern, indoor electric freestyle.(preferably with design input from current FAI e-competitions)
3. AMA should encourage promoters to hold events with the new rules and sanction as many events as possible.
4. Get as many people into the competitions as possible.
5. If you build it, they will come.

Think if you had a SEFF type event once a month in cities all over the US. With open competition during the event, and a e-field/e-club nearby....I dont think you could keep them out of the AMA.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Over the years I've heard the same about the other AMAs, what does that Amercian Motorcycle Association offer motorcycle riders? What does the American Medical Association offer Dr.s, American Metallurgical Association, American Management Association what can they do for their members?

Or from Gun owners, what does the NRA offer me?

And it goes on and on. . . . as a society develops the every individual for himself philosophy - until they eventually find themselves on the short end of the stick and then cry for help.

IMHO these organizations, just like the AMA, would enhance their standing by setting the bar a bit higher as to who THEY would allow to join, asking what they can contribute to the organization? [>:]

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

What? Dave Brown should NOT spend AMA funds (that I contribute to) setting up clubs. That's what we (AMA members) are supposed to do. Parkfliers are defined by what they do. Specifics should be determined at the local level or by a SIG. Each field is different. You can't fly fanjets at our field. Nobody cares if you want to try, but the runway isn't smooth enough or long enough! How do you set one up? That info is already available at the AMA site. Who will manage and maintain it? You, of course. You being the club and it's elected members. See, this is already part of what the AMA offers. Seems you just want more for less.

1. already addressed
2. Easy enough. Take a look at the 1/2a pylon rules. They're ridiculously outdated. Do you really want to depend on the AMA for your rules? That's really a double-edged sword. Other forms of competition aren't run directly by the AMA. Take a look at combat. Again, a SIG would be handy right about now.
3. AMA should NOT encourage promoters. That should always be an economic decision by the promoters and sponsors. You want the AMA to back them financially or something? There's already people out there doing it anyway. What more do you want? Local events? Go set one up!
4. That's not done by the AMA. The most they can do is write about it in MA. They certainly can't go around twisting arms.
5. Probably. But you want me to build it for you?

Red, elitism stinks. Maybe we shouldn't let them 1/2a'rs join, right. What small, cheap crap will they bring to the field when you want to fly your IMAA stuff, huh? They just get in the way. I know exactly what the NRA offers me. That's why I chose to join. Why else join?

Is there really an answer? I don't think so. People who don't want to join and fly at clubs have no reason to. Guess what... that's ok with me. I don't think Dave or the EC oughta be bending over to kiss anybodies *** trying to get additional revenue. It's embarrassing. It seems like the people that fly parkfliers just wanna fly in parks anyway. What's up with all these stipulations? None of this will bring in significantly more people to the AMA. Everything you want can be had RIGHT NOW. At the current price. Sorry dude, the rest of us have to work for our fields, clubs, SIG's and events ,so should you.

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

A persons most important contribution is just to join the club, no strings attached. You get a strong club by power of numbers in that club. This is the biggest problem with the AMA right now. Plenty of people for the taking and nobody joining. Everyhing AROUND RC is growing, except the AMA. The AMA needs members, PERIOD. The more members you get the more likely you'll get those who want to contribute more, but to actually select you members is just plain out crazy. Theres no way that setting the bar higher for a potential club member will enhance the standing, not by a longshot.

If clubs were to set the bar, there would be like 3 NRA members, Charlton Heston, who rocked in 10 Commandments and Planet of the Apes, and two other non-redneck members (if there are actually 2). Sorry don't mean to offend the NRA, but some of them are just whacked out of their gord. Always think about when Homer joined the NRA on the Simpsons, that was a riot. But still, they have the power by the numbers even tho most of them are a couple cans shy of a 6 pack.

abel_pranger

ptulmer-

You stated precisely what parkflyers have repeatedly said they want, so why don't you think there is an answer? It's so simple, really. Facilitate their access to flying their models where they want to fly. AMA membership doesn't do that. With AMA membership you get personal insurance. In many cases that doesn't get flying access in parks. Public entities that own parks want to avoid uncovered liability. Covering their liability that might be incurred due to model flying requires site owner insurance be provided, not personal insurance for the model flying park user.

So, that being the priority need of independent park fliers, AMA does not offer everything they want right now. They are staying away in droves because AMA doesn't (yet) offer what they want/need most - so all the other benefits of AMA membership that people have cited in interminable lists (discounts on dental work and eyeglasses, etc. ad infinitum) are just fluff. Even AMA EC members will concede that most current members joined AMA because the insurance is required for them to have a place to fly. There is no reason to expect that park flyers are a strangely different breed that would buy the fluff without being served the meat and potatos.

Abel

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Boy, you really hit the nail right on the head with that statement !!!! Too many people think this hobby is about drinking coffee !!!

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

Good, let them think this hobby is about coffee, as long as they hold an AMA card, who are you to judge who they are and what they know and stand for? The best member the AMA could possibly have is someone who doesn't even fly RC planes, this person is the true contributor to the AMA.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I guess I would raise the bar higher than you.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Abel, that's what I don't understand. AMA provides the insurance to cover the liability that you're talking about. You can even get MORE insurance as a chartered club. It's up to individuals to make opportunities where they live and fly! Even the flying site assistance program doesn't do what's being asked by this group of people. The AMA shouldn't hold their hands. Start a club. You don't need a field to start. For the most part, the PF'ers just seem to be lazy. I think they're staying away in droves because they don't understand what the benefits would be if THEY put them to use.
BTW, I'll be visiting your fine city in June. Not too far away, and so nice! If my wife lets me bring some toys, any chance of a place to fly? If you've got the nerve, you can get behind the sticks of my "Blink". A 7oz, 120mph, smaller than a pf'er, cox powered speed demon!


STL, you can't make derogatory remarks, say you're sorry that it's true and everything is ok. You just showed your true liberal colors. Red. That's ok, though. You're allowed to be ignorant in this country. People like me and so many others understand the second amendment is about preventing tyranny in our own government and work to keep it out. You keep working to put it in. You're still outnumbered... and outgunned.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

I'm not sure if I'm being clear. What you get for your $58 ain't insurance. It's the ability to charter clubs, sanction events, etc. The insurance is just part of how you accomplish these goals. The only thing I see different for the PF'ers is the desire for segregation. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm not being mean, it just ain't stickin'. There doesn't seem to be anything the AMA could offer extra that would attract vast numbers of new members. Maybe they need an educational advertising campaign?

KidEpoxy

Is he judging a person by their perfomance of characters other than themself? Chuck is OK because he's an Isreali Apekiller? I guess that is why so many people voted against the homicidal robot for CA Govenor.

well, who could find offense in that.

STL, what a great coup for you if you went to the NY corrections folks, and found out the massive % of guys in for killing somebody, that belonged to the NRA. You could tout that number here all day, and we wouldn't have anything to say. Pretty much the only reason you dont run out & get that info is... well... you think it is a way low % and would show statisticly the NRA aint killers, but NY residents are. That is my guess. Call that department, and post the phone number you spoke with and %.


Perhaps the cities wont want to permit flying even PFs in a downtown urban park... even with insurance and a club. Maybe they will see it as too much space taken up by a small number of parkusers... perhaps they may see it as too dangerous even with insurance (insuranse dont make picnicking in lane 2 of an interstate less dangerous, just less costly).
Maybe, dunno, vague consideration at best, but interestin ponderin

abel_pranger

AMA provides the insurance to you as a member that covers you if you get sued. It does NOT provide insurance covering the owner of the flying site, except when clubs buy it, and it is only available to clubs. That's the rub where park flyers are concerned. They don't need improved flying sites like the traditional club flyers need, and many have said they prefer to fly as independents, in parks. Not all feel that way, and of course some have and will join clubs and so AMA - but it hasn't has much impact on the stagnation and decline in club and AMA membership.

The insurance that AMA provides to clubs insures the club itself and site owner, by name. Additional site owners can be covered at extra cost. It takes at least 5 members to form a club, and the site owner coverage isn't portable. That's a couple strikes aginst AMA's offering, as being tied down to a fixed-base club site negates the fly-it-anywhere nature of PF models that is one of their big attractions, and the formality of a club is also a disincentive for some as it is for about 1/2 of AMA's current members that don't belong to clubs.

All I've heard the park flyers ask for is a place to fly. They don't need the flying site assistance program, they'll find their own places to fly. In order to do that, some among them particularly in large metro areas need to offer site owners insurance coverage to mitigate a very common concern of property owners that allow others to use their property. That is why AMA got into the insurance business in the first place, to protect property owners from uncovered liability, not personal liability insurance for the members, medical and fire and theft. The purpose was and still is (in part) to obtain the use of flying sites. But it is not available to park flyers that just want to fly in parks. I am presuming that is the park flyer segment that AMA want to reach out to. For that segment that wants to fly at clubs, the option is already open to them to join a club, as you said.

St Aug isn't for me after April. I head for the left coast when the swamps start steaming. If I got behind the sticks of your aptly named Blink, it would be far behind! My vision has been lousy for years, just had a major fix with the past two weeks. Still learning what the Mod 2 version of the ol' eyeballs are capable of - now up to staying with a warmed-up MicroJet at a bit under twice the weight and half the speed of your little rocket. I feel the need for speed, but you're going to have the lead for a while yet.

Abel

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

What's so derogatory about it? I just find it quite interesting that you guys think you need to pass some kind of special test to join the AMA and you say I'm the one showing my true colors, too funny.

There was always this group of guys that would slam the old guys because they would just come to the clubs and cry and whine, but never fly. They would come to meetings just to vote and to add their 2 cents and complain about how bad things were in the club, again, not touching a remote control in years. But at the end of the day these guys still paid their dues. Not only did they pay their dues, they didn't take up any space on the flightline, so let them complain and vote all they want, they are still members of the club.

You wouldn't happen to be the type of person that would slam these old guys, now would you?

Bob101

You have done more to prevent people from wanting to join the AMA as parkflyers than any possible recruitment you could do here from the comments in several of your last post - one of which got the entire thread locked then deleted.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

If whining and complaining is your sport of choice, you could go to the park and harass people (and park flyers) for free. ( But you might be arrested. )

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Ptulmer, I know you despise electrics, but why can't you just let it go? Why do you have to bash another segment of our hobby repeatedly? I know you're big into slimers, but I could care less for them. Do you see me bashing you for your slimers?exactly right, but I don't see this E ticket as being that way to get more members. It appears to me as to be a way to build membership that won't bother the EC or Prez Dave. If you don't like STL's postings, the best thing to do is don't respond to him. They need:

(1) A new image
(2) Updated everything
(3) New clubs


50%

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Maybe the problem starts here;

When you signed up with AMA you viewed it as purchasing a product, rather than as supporting the model aviation hobby.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Seems to me like alot of the time, they just haven't gotten caught yet. You see the same problem I do.

Abel, that's why I don't see an answer. How can you provide insurance that will do that? It's true that the AMA needs to sit down with the insurance company and see what can be done. If it's even possible, it would probably cost more than what is currently offered, but instead of coming up with a program that charges the PF'ers more, the cost should be included with the old package and everybody charged a part of the cost as part of their membership. Kinda like the way freeflighters don't ask for different insurance and a lesser pricetag. Everybody shares the cost and makes the hobby what it should be. Fun. I just can't see how they can do anything that will change a "no" to a "yes" when someone just goes to a park and flies without permission. Flying model airplanes and picnicking are two different things.
One of the things I've seen being requested is new E-clubs. What is wanted here? Real estate!? I'm just say that Dave has no business starting clubs. That is the responsibility of local people. I've seen people saying they want the most ridiculous things for 1/2 price. If you can't find a park to fly in, YOU must work to have a place you can fly at. There's no magic wand that you can wave and "PRESTO". Flying Field!


Well, calling my glow engines "slimers" ain't nice, is it? And no, I don't hate electrics and don't bash airplanes or equipment.

Agreed. Short of educating people about the AMA, there's not much you can do except go around twisting arms.

You're absolutely right. I'll do that from now on.

Here's my view of the e-ticket. The people we are calling "park fliers" have a toy mentality. They have bought a toy and want to fly it. OK, that's fine. But when there's no place close to home or easily found, they're looking around for someone to find it for them. If it's not there, instead of working to create place or club, they want the AMA to do it for them. The AMA is being asked to do all the labor at half-price, so all they have to do is fly! That's not too shabby of a deal! I'd be banging the door down wanting the same thing! It's just not financially feasible.
Please note that I'm not grouping everybody that flies park flier airplanes into one group. There are members of our local club that only fly park fliers, and I fly 1/2a glow. I've got NOTHING against any kind of model aviation. You want to be looked down on, bring something to a fly-in with a Cox engine on the front. I've got a real problem with people not taking responsibility for their own entertainment. (and lives)

P51, I would have laughed at anyone that told me to sign up and pay $58 just to support the hobby. If I pay money, there's gonna be a reason. If I truly want to support the hobby, money won't do it anyway. Maybe being club sec. would qualify? Intro pilot? How about offering free printable plans on my website? Anything there work for you?

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Those things also add to support for the hobby, I am also a club officer and Intro Pilot!

KidEpoxy

"Well, calling my glow engines "slimers" ain't nice, is it?"

Watch it PT, the Grammar Gestapo gonna sic agent STL on ya for the word AINT... Its happened before.


"I've got NOTHING against any kind of model aviation. You want to be looked down on, bring something to a fly-in with a Cox engine on the front. "

Amen brother


I fly at a youth soccer complex, with littleleague in back, none of the 11 rules say No RC. But clearly there is no way on earth they will allow a flight club to be there. The soccer and flying are just incompatible, and the soccer events and littleleague seem to be going on all the time. I get in once in a while during the day, but I cant imagine a club talking the Soccer Assoc into letting them charter there.
Parkflying is a gawker magnet, which is an accident waiting to happen. Many parks are not large enough to more than 3d in a 40' area- I was having a bear of a time with an EStarter foamie up in Union City,CA park.... some fool put a bunch of trees in the park.

cwrr5

My Feedback: (32)

That's exactly what it is, a product, specifically a place to fly which is suitable and (usually) safe. Insurance, etc, etc, are just extras, nothing more.
What you get out of any organization reflects how much you put into an organization, whether it's a place to fly, insurance, enjoying the company of others, drinking coffee, whatever. Some, like many individuals in this thread, choose to go above and beyond, and actively work to sustain and improve the organization. Others just want to fly, and there's nothing wrong with that either. You pay, you get to play. Some just play harder than others.

50% - I think you read pt totally wrong. He's not anti-sparky, he's just into 1/2a more. Heck, most of his designs would (and have) make wonderful electrics, suitable for parkflying. Even the 1/2A "slimers" make pretty good parkfliers, except possibly the engine sound - and even that's debateable, depending on location.

Exactly!
Do parkfliers really need AMA, or does the AMA need the parkfliers?

cwrr5

My Feedback: (32)

LoL! For sure!

abel_pranger

ptulmer-

SFA found a way to provide insurance to individuals that covered site owners. The owner of SFA bought it because AMA could not/would not provide him with $2 million in site owner coverage demanded by the property owner. After his company offered that same amount of site owner coverage to other clubs, AMA found a way to offer comparable coverage.

As for the cost, the same sort of insurance that is provided to clubs to protect site owners is paid for by every member, even though only about half of AMA members belong to clubs and benefit from it. The club charter fee only partially covers the cost of providing insurance to the club.

We aren't talking large sums of money here. The cost of AMA insurance in total breaks down to about $10 per member. So how about this: Provide Joe Parkflyer with $10 worth of insurance for himself, and $10 worth of coinsurance for an unnamed second party (the owner of the land where Joe happens to be flying).

Would I pay $10 more to be able to cover the potential liability of a land owner as I seek his permission to use his property to fly my model airplanes? Damned straight I would. Of course AMA insurance covers personal insurance for everybody and site owner insurance for half of them at a cost of $10 per head, so the projected cost to Park Flyers for Profit, Inc. to cover all members with personal and site owner insurance somewhere between $10 and $20 (if coverage limits comparable to AMA's are provided). Say $15 for a ballpark figure. Double that to provide for overhead, whatever fluff is deemed necessary to market it and make it salient, and of course some profit.

Still don't think it is can be done? I'm confident it will happen. Only question is whether AMA will be in on the action.

Abel

edited: del extraneous format operator

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Actually, my comments were based on everything that I've seen him write on this subject.(not just this thread) Ptulmer, it looks like your opinion has changed a bit and I'm sorry. I too fly slimers if anyone isn't aware of that.


50%