Why would you build a house there?
08-11-2009, 12:06 PM
#51
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Sport
a) the link dont work, and you didnt bother telling us what title/section you were linking so we could find it ourselves
b) Since this forum has little to do with what the full scale GA can do from that field,
and GA rules cant solve the RC model problem,
lets focus on the RC problem and rules at that field.
It appears from the info in the OP
that a club was previously flying over private property (with permission?), but the new owner says no..
But we also read that those in control of the field have already ceded the point and designated that boundary as a model NoFly line.
Why are modelers still flying "200 ft" past the NoFly line at that club?
If folks want to create some law that allows Model Aircraft to trespass
I am certain the Fremont CA ama club would love to be allowed to fly over the boundaries at their postage stamp sized field, and tell their neighbors to stuff it.
a) the link dont work, and you didnt bother telling us what title/section you were linking so we could find it ourselves
b) Since this forum has little to do with what the full scale GA can do from that field,
and GA rules cant solve the RC model problem,
lets focus on the RC problem and rules at that field.
It appears from the info in the OP
that a club was previously flying over private property (with permission?), but the new owner says no..
But we also read that those in control of the field have already ceded the point and designated that boundary as a model NoFly line.
Why are modelers still flying "200 ft" past the NoFly line at that club?
If folks want to create some law that allows Model Aircraft to trespass
I am certain the Fremont CA ama club would love to be allowed to fly over the boundaries at their postage stamp sized field, and tell their neighbors to stuff it.
08-11-2009, 12:28 PM
#52
RE: Why would you build a house there?
a) the link dont work, and you didnt bother telling us what title/section you were linking so we could find it ourselves
b) Since this forum has little to do with what the full scale GA can do from that field,
and GA rules cant solve the RC model problem,
lets focus on the RC problem and rules at that field.
and GA rules cant solve the RC model problem,
lets focus on the RC problem and rules at that field.
Why are modelers still flying "200 ft" past the NoFly line at that club?
08-11-2009, 12:28 PM
#53
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
I had a similar situation arise a few years ago where my neighbors and i rode atv's on someone else's land for years. Suddenly the owner died and left the land to his kid who did not want us there anymore. I consulted with my brother in law who is a contract lawyer and he said that since we have been using it so long the owner does not have the right to kick us off. He said legally we could even stop him from ever building on it. There is a term for it but i dont remember it. We never did persue it due to the high legal cost. I'm sure this varies from state to state. Just thought i would throw that in.
08-11-2009, 12:46 PM
#54
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
i believe that you are allowed to fly over anyones yard, as long as its not loud and supersonic, which i doubt it isn't, but what do i know i'm 13.
08-11-2009, 01:59 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
This talk about flying over someone elses property reminds me of the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4175763/tm.htm]poll about flying over someone elses property[/link].
Seems trespass flying is wrong when Outlaw flyers do it,
but its ok for AMA clubbers to in this thread... how dare someone else own property we want to use
Seems trespass flying is wrong when Outlaw flyers do it,
but its ok for AMA clubbers to in this thread... how dare someone else own property we want to use
08-11-2009, 03:09 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Depending on how much faith you put in Wikipedia.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights
Airplanes and air rights
Further information: Airline flyovers
Unlimited air rights existed when people began owning real estate. It was not something that anyone really concerned themselves with before the 20th century. The first legal limits placed on air rights came about because of the airplane. Eventually, owners only had rights to airspace that they could reasonably use. It would be impractical for the development of air travel for individual landowners to own all the air above them, because airplanes would be constantly trespassing.
[edit] United States
In the United States, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has the sole authority to control all airspace, exclusively determining the rules and requirements for its use. Typically, in the "Uncontrolled" category of airspace, any pilot can fly any aircraft as low as he/she wants, subject to the requirement of maintaining a 500-foot (150 m) distance from people and man-made structures except for purposes of takeoff and landing, and not causing any hazard. Therefore, it appears to trump any individually claimed air rights, near airports especially.
Specifically, the Federal Aviation Act provides that: "The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States."[2] The act defines navigable airspace as "airspace above the minimum altitudes of flight…including airspace needed to ensure the safety in the takeoff and landing of aircraft."[3]
Property owners may waive (or purchasers may be required to waive) any putative notion of "air rights" near an airport, for convenience in future real estate transactions, and to avoid lawsuits from future owners who might attempt to claim distress from overflying aircraft. This is called an avigation easement.
From an analysis by AOPA.org of a lawsuit by a property owner against a nearby small airport: "The landowner's claim raises some fundamental legal principles about the ownership of land and the airspace above the land. These principles have been developing over time. In early common law, when there was little practical use of the upper air over a person's land, the law considered that a landowner owned all of the airspace above their land. That doctrine quickly became obsolete when the airplane came on the scene, along with the realization that each property owner whose land was overflown could demand that aircraft keep out of the landowner's airspace, or exact a price for the use of the airspace. The law, drawing heavily on the law of the sea, then declared that the upper reaches of the airspace were free for the navigation of aircraft. In the case of United States v. Causby[4], the U.S. Supreme Court declared the navigable airspace to be "a public highway" and within the public domain".
"At the same time, the law, and the Supreme Court, recognized that a landowner had property rights in the lower reaches of the airspace above their property. The law, in balancing the public interest in using the airspace for air navigation against the landowner's rights, declared that a landowner owns only so much of the airspace above their property as they may reasonably use in connection with their enjoyment of the underlying land. In other words, a person's real property ownership includes a reasonable amount of the airspace above the property. A landowner can't arbitrarily try to prevent aircraft from overflying their land by erecting "spite poles," for example. But, a landowner may make any legitimate use of their property that they want, even if it interferes with aircraft overflying the land".
Another relevant article:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-over-my-house
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights
Airplanes and air rights
Further information: Airline flyovers
Unlimited air rights existed when people began owning real estate. It was not something that anyone really concerned themselves with before the 20th century. The first legal limits placed on air rights came about because of the airplane. Eventually, owners only had rights to airspace that they could reasonably use. It would be impractical for the development of air travel for individual landowners to own all the air above them, because airplanes would be constantly trespassing.
[edit] United States
In the United States, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has the sole authority to control all airspace, exclusively determining the rules and requirements for its use. Typically, in the "Uncontrolled" category of airspace, any pilot can fly any aircraft as low as he/she wants, subject to the requirement of maintaining a 500-foot (150 m) distance from people and man-made structures except for purposes of takeoff and landing, and not causing any hazard. Therefore, it appears to trump any individually claimed air rights, near airports especially.
Specifically, the Federal Aviation Act provides that: "The United States Government has exclusive sovereignty of airspace of the United States."[2] The act defines navigable airspace as "airspace above the minimum altitudes of flight…including airspace needed to ensure the safety in the takeoff and landing of aircraft."[3]
Property owners may waive (or purchasers may be required to waive) any putative notion of "air rights" near an airport, for convenience in future real estate transactions, and to avoid lawsuits from future owners who might attempt to claim distress from overflying aircraft. This is called an avigation easement.
From an analysis by AOPA.org of a lawsuit by a property owner against a nearby small airport: "The landowner's claim raises some fundamental legal principles about the ownership of land and the airspace above the land. These principles have been developing over time. In early common law, when there was little practical use of the upper air over a person's land, the law considered that a landowner owned all of the airspace above their land. That doctrine quickly became obsolete when the airplane came on the scene, along with the realization that each property owner whose land was overflown could demand that aircraft keep out of the landowner's airspace, or exact a price for the use of the airspace. The law, drawing heavily on the law of the sea, then declared that the upper reaches of the airspace were free for the navigation of aircraft. In the case of United States v. Causby[4], the U.S. Supreme Court declared the navigable airspace to be "a public highway" and within the public domain".
"At the same time, the law, and the Supreme Court, recognized that a landowner had property rights in the lower reaches of the airspace above their property. The law, in balancing the public interest in using the airspace for air navigation against the landowner's rights, declared that a landowner owns only so much of the airspace above their property as they may reasonably use in connection with their enjoyment of the underlying land. In other words, a person's real property ownership includes a reasonable amount of the airspace above the property. A landowner can't arbitrarily try to prevent aircraft from overflying their land by erecting "spite poles," for example. But, a landowner may make any legitimate use of their property that they want, even if it interferes with aircraft overflying the land".
Another relevant article:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-over-my-house
08-11-2009, 06:00 PM
#58
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Avery sad make of events to happen to ya`all over some a hole !!!! Thats why we built our field in the middle of a corn field 200 yards long by 75 yards wide and olny one house even remotely close by and he loves sitting on his front porch drinking a few beers and listens to all of the goings on over here!!!!!!!!!!!! I own a 10.000 pound roller that we roll our field with every spring and he always borrows it to roll his hay fields and his big assed front yard!!!! Maybe a little honey will sweet`n this old boy up for ya`all !!!! HOPE EVERYTHING WORKS OUT IN THE END THAT WILL BE GOOD FOR ALL CONCEREND !!!!!!!
GOOD LUCK !!!!!
HomeBoy61
Member of THE SOUTHERN IOWA SCREAMMING EAGLES R/C CLUB
GOOD LUCK !!!!!
HomeBoy61
Member of THE SOUTHERN IOWA SCREAMMING EAGLES R/C CLUB
08-11-2009, 07:28 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
its also the same kinda of people that build a neighborhood next to a shooting range and then complain because the gunshots.. here in fishers indiana there is a gun range by geist that has been there as long as the lake has or longer, and they decide to put a neighbor hood up and then people complain when they move in because of the gun shots.. it use to be open 6 days a week, now its open like 2 days a week for like 5 hours
08-11-2009, 07:30 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Here's a suggestion, stop flying and start raising hogs. See how long it takes before you are begged to begin flying planes again.
08-11-2009, 08:36 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Wow,
I was reading this and waiting for somebody from San Antonio to say something, and there was Kid Epoxy, but not a word was uttered, so here I go.....
We have a club here in San Antonio that I used to belong to, called the ARCS (Alamo Radio Control Society). They bought some land from a guy in a rural area on the southwest edge of town, and the guy let them know he was going to build a house on the property right there at the edge of the field.
The geniuses in the club made all these big plans, except for the fact that they failed to do any real research and real planning. They built a lean-to that was very nice, and that was fine. Then they decided they were going to go all-out and put a paved runway down. They ran these specials where you could get like 3 years membership for $180.00, and all kinds of folks joined the club and bought into this deal and they thought they had gotten themselves a great deal there.
Ironically enough, I missed out on the deal because one of the club officers made a promise he didn't keep when I couldn't get there to pay while I was moving from Maine, and he screwed me over. Oh, I was so upset, angry even.
Until the guy who sold them the land built his house at the end of the runway. Probably at most two hundred feet STRAIGHT LINE off the most-used takeoff end of the runway!
I could NOT believe it when I saw it. You should hear the club officers trying to downplay their MONUMENTAL screwup, as they mumble something about "having no control over where the guy decided to build his house....", even though a few questions asked of the guy revealed that he intended to build it right there the whole time, and anybody who asked could have and would have been told that.
Had they researched this, they could have built the runway at an angle of, say, twenty or twenty-five degrees from where it is, and it would have changed everything.
There is nothing they have or ever could say to me to make me believe that this is no big deal. Might as well have ended that runway at the edge of a LAKE. Because, lake or house, sooner or later somebody won't have it on takeoff, as so often happens, and that day a plane is going full-bore into it.
These guys running this club are pitiful. And now I know, I'll never rejoin them. But I'm not ANGRY at them anymore! Hardy-har-har....what a bunch of maroons.
As for the guy who built the house, he's gotta be about as bright as they are. But hey, everybody's happy!
Jim
I was reading this and waiting for somebody from San Antonio to say something, and there was Kid Epoxy, but not a word was uttered, so here I go.....
We have a club here in San Antonio that I used to belong to, called the ARCS (Alamo Radio Control Society). They bought some land from a guy in a rural area on the southwest edge of town, and the guy let them know he was going to build a house on the property right there at the edge of the field.
The geniuses in the club made all these big plans, except for the fact that they failed to do any real research and real planning. They built a lean-to that was very nice, and that was fine. Then they decided they were going to go all-out and put a paved runway down. They ran these specials where you could get like 3 years membership for $180.00, and all kinds of folks joined the club and bought into this deal and they thought they had gotten themselves a great deal there.
Ironically enough, I missed out on the deal because one of the club officers made a promise he didn't keep when I couldn't get there to pay while I was moving from Maine, and he screwed me over. Oh, I was so upset, angry even.
Until the guy who sold them the land built his house at the end of the runway. Probably at most two hundred feet STRAIGHT LINE off the most-used takeoff end of the runway!
I could NOT believe it when I saw it. You should hear the club officers trying to downplay their MONUMENTAL screwup, as they mumble something about "having no control over where the guy decided to build his house....", even though a few questions asked of the guy revealed that he intended to build it right there the whole time, and anybody who asked could have and would have been told that.
Had they researched this, they could have built the runway at an angle of, say, twenty or twenty-five degrees from where it is, and it would have changed everything.
There is nothing they have or ever could say to me to make me believe that this is no big deal. Might as well have ended that runway at the edge of a LAKE. Because, lake or house, sooner or later somebody won't have it on takeoff, as so often happens, and that day a plane is going full-bore into it.
These guys running this club are pitiful. And now I know, I'll never rejoin them. But I'm not ANGRY at them anymore! Hardy-har-har....what a bunch of maroons.
As for the guy who built the house, he's gotta be about as bright as they are. But hey, everybody's happy!
Jim
08-11-2009, 10:31 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Here's a suggestion, stop flying and start raising hogs. See how long it takes before you are begged to begin flying planes again.
SOOOOOOOOOOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn good idea!!!!!!!!! I LIKE IT DUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SOOOOOOOOOOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn good idea!!!!!!!!! I LIKE IT DUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08-11-2009, 11:06 PM
#63
RE: Why would you build a house there?
If he's downwind of the field you could start up a nice compost pile, be one with nature, green even 
everyone could bring out there worst fruit, and veggies, just keep stacking it up....
everyone could bring out there worst fruit, and veggies, just keep stacking it up....
08-11-2009, 11:14 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
alright ive had enough if someone would have the guy at the end of the runway call me ill come out and build a sound wall for free just to kill this thread. no one will complaine again garanteed. 720 329 7763 jake custom design.(your problem solved.)or [email protected]
08-12-2009, 06:05 AM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Now, Jake, we can't be messing with the natural order of things here. What you've proposed involves no conflict, hate, or discontent. I'm afraid for now that we're just gonna have to shelve your idea indefinitely! Perhaps if you can come up with something just a bit more sloppy, messy, smelly, or less likely to solve the problem we can take a look at it then!
LOL.....
Jim
LOL.....
Jim
08-12-2009, 09:26 AM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
One well (or poor) placed jet will take care of his complaints. All kidding aside same problem here. Two flying fields within a few miles of one another, with complaints from neighbors. One guy whos' property line runs along the entrance road will open up on who ever says boo to him. This past fathers day was awesome. Jet rally sponsered by one of the local corperate heads who flys. In other words has money and pull than this bozo ever will so he won't complaint to him. What fun though! Loud! Fast! Unfortuneatly lost one in the woods, wrong woods. [>:]
Second field has no flying before a certin time in the mornings. This I don't have a problem with, and understand completely.
On a final note I made mention of this in another thread. One more moron at a flying field between Wisconsin Dells and Reedsburg, WI. Flying field has been there for quite a while. This "guy" builds a house not in the flight path but behind it. So it faces the feilds flight line and canopy. Same rules now apply. Pull up and turn left. Don't fly over the end of the approach. If you loose your plane on his property you have to ask permission to go get it. Reason, the planes scare his kids! Are you kidding me? If I was a kid living that close to a flying field I'd be there to watch.
Dumb a**'s, seem to multiply don't they? [>:]
Second field has no flying before a certin time in the mornings. This I don't have a problem with, and understand completely.
On a final note I made mention of this in another thread. One more moron at a flying field between Wisconsin Dells and Reedsburg, WI. Flying field has been there for quite a while. This "guy" builds a house not in the flight path but behind it. So it faces the feilds flight line and canopy. Same rules now apply. Pull up and turn left. Don't fly over the end of the approach. If you loose your plane on his property you have to ask permission to go get it. Reason, the planes scare his kids! Are you kidding me? If I was a kid living that close to a flying field I'd be there to watch.
Dumb a**'s, seem to multiply don't they? [>:]
08-12-2009, 09:56 AM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
Most seem to be for personal property rights as long as it doesn't effect there fun. Very strange.
I can say from very personal experience that the last thing a club want's is problems with the neighbors. Don't look for help from local government, the police or the AMA if you are overflying private property without permission........ you won't get any. And if the property owner has notified you to not fly over there property and you still do then be prepared to lose your field if the property owner goes legal. Not real hard or expensive to get a cease and desist order from a judge. Don't ask me how I know. We were able to prove by GPS readings that we were not flying over the private property, but over public wetlands. The homeowner had videos of planes supposedly flying over her property. A little basic geometry on camera angles showed the court that we here not.
Noise however is slightly different. If the local city or county has a noise ordinance, get familiar with it. Some state specific decibel levels, but a lot just say something along the line of noise that would reasonably disturb the peaceful enjoyment of the property. Here again the AMA is of little help as there are no AMA guidelines on noise. There are some for specific contests like pattern aerobatics, but no specific general guidance.
If the property owner complains to the local code board, you had better have a few Councilmen or the Chief of Police as club members, because the bureaucrats will almost always rule against the noise source. In my Clubs case we were prepared with documents showing that we had tested all the planes with a decibel meter and that the noise from the aircraft was much less (10%) of the noise from a State Highway adjacent to the property. Even so we agreed to change the flight pattern to move any noise further away from the complainant.
You can rant, rave all you want about the stupid property owner building where he did, but I hope that make you feel good when you lose the field. Document your noise level, enforce rules against the idiot flying straight pipes, and get ready to defend your Club in a forum stacked against "Old Guys with expensive toys, making a lot of noise".
I can say from very personal experience that the last thing a club want's is problems with the neighbors. Don't look for help from local government, the police or the AMA if you are overflying private property without permission........ you won't get any. And if the property owner has notified you to not fly over there property and you still do then be prepared to lose your field if the property owner goes legal. Not real hard or expensive to get a cease and desist order from a judge. Don't ask me how I know. We were able to prove by GPS readings that we were not flying over the private property, but over public wetlands. The homeowner had videos of planes supposedly flying over her property. A little basic geometry on camera angles showed the court that we here not.
Noise however is slightly different. If the local city or county has a noise ordinance, get familiar with it. Some state specific decibel levels, but a lot just say something along the line of noise that would reasonably disturb the peaceful enjoyment of the property. Here again the AMA is of little help as there are no AMA guidelines on noise. There are some for specific contests like pattern aerobatics, but no specific general guidance.
If the property owner complains to the local code board, you had better have a few Councilmen or the Chief of Police as club members, because the bureaucrats will almost always rule against the noise source. In my Clubs case we were prepared with documents showing that we had tested all the planes with a decibel meter and that the noise from the aircraft was much less (10%) of the noise from a State Highway adjacent to the property. Even so we agreed to change the flight pattern to move any noise further away from the complainant.
You can rant, rave all you want about the stupid property owner building where he did, but I hope that make you feel good when you lose the field. Document your noise level, enforce rules against the idiot flying straight pipes, and get ready to defend your Club in a forum stacked against "Old Guys with expensive toys, making a lot of noise".
08-12-2009, 05:43 PM
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RE: Why would you build a house there?
You're getting the posts mixed up. I DON'T care that the guy built the house where he did, and they won't lose the field because HE sold it to them.
I would LOVE IT if they lost the field (just out of pure personal mean-ness), but they won't.
I'm happy that they screwed up so bad. Mostly because they did something not-so-nice to me. In the end it means nothing.
Worst case scenario here they are probably looking at changing the direction of the runway, or adding a cross-runway section. Which probably in MOST of these cases would change things quite a bit. People love trouble. People love to fight. If their field is like most of the fields I've ever belonged to they've got a stubborn ol' Gunny Sargent there who can't seem to remember that he's no longer active military and wants to run everybody's lives. Take that stubbornness and and add it to a refusal to consider any other options and you've got....well, pretty much 60 percent of all the flying fields I've ever been to.
Jim
I would LOVE IT if they lost the field (just out of pure personal mean-ness), but they won't.
I'm happy that they screwed up so bad. Mostly because they did something not-so-nice to me. In the end it means nothing.
Worst case scenario here they are probably looking at changing the direction of the runway, or adding a cross-runway section. Which probably in MOST of these cases would change things quite a bit. People love trouble. People love to fight. If their field is like most of the fields I've ever belonged to they've got a stubborn ol' Gunny Sargent there who can't seem to remember that he's no longer active military and wants to run everybody's lives. Take that stubbornness and and add it to a refusal to consider any other options and you've got....well, pretty much 60 percent of all the flying fields I've ever been to.
Jim
