Larger Revolver
12-18-2012, 01:47 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Hey Ernie,
Sorry about that chief ! I have two (2) APC 14 X 8's (They are labeled "Pattern" ) (not 14x7's I originally stated) . Should I still go w/ 15 X6??? I like the idea of some braking.
Also, what are your thoughts (or anyones for that matter) on breaking in my Saito 100 w/ the 14 X 8 props??
Thanks Ernie... and all !
Don
Sorry about that chief ! I have two (2) APC 14 X 8's (They are labeled "Pattern" ) (not 14x7's I originally stated) . Should I still go w/ 15 X6??? I like the idea of some braking.
Also, what are your thoughts (or anyones for that matter) on breaking in my Saito 100 w/ the 14 X 8 props??
Thanks Ernie... and all !
Don
12-18-2012, 03:56 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Hi Mike
I have not yet flown the R70 with my EagleTree package on board, so i don't have specific info on ground speed.
She flew both directions on a 500' main runway, clearing the thresholds in < 3 sec; i would estimate 2.5sec. If so, she is doing well over 115 mph with a 14x12 pitch prop.
Orthobird has a 125 gps speed, if i recall correctly.
When i get the GPS verified data, I'll post it. I will also be interested in the speed performance on my new 14x13.5 prop. May be a little heavy load for the DLE20, but we'll see how it turns. Probably will have to richen the HS needle a bit.
I have not yet flown the R70 with my EagleTree package on board, so i don't have specific info on ground speed.
She flew both directions on a 500' main runway, clearing the thresholds in < 3 sec; i would estimate 2.5sec. If so, she is doing well over 115 mph with a 14x12 pitch prop.
Orthobird has a 125 gps speed, if i recall correctly.
When i get the GPS verified data, I'll post it. I will also be interested in the speed performance on my new 14x13.5 prop. May be a little heavy load for the DLE20, but we'll see how it turns. Probably will have to richen the HS needle a bit.
12-18-2012, 04:42 PM
#6153
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RE: Larger Revolver
hi Wj, yes, i got 120 with the GPS. She is a screamer.
i found it, here was my post:
Flew my revolver again today. Very fun. THE GarminGPSwas onboard and it clocked max speed at 120 mph. I don't believe I should go to 14 x 12prop. I was using the 15 x 10 prop today. It was coming in fast for landing and I damaged landing gear plate. It is now fixed. I was flying plane at a cotton field and tried to land plane on 8 foot wide runway for the cropduster
believe it or not, now i have the 16 x 6 prop on her.
i never got to use the 14 x 12 prop, i may have lied!!
i found it, here was my post:
Flew my revolver again today. Very fun. THE GarminGPSwas onboard and it clocked max speed at 120 mph. I don't believe I should go to 14 x 12prop. I was using the 15 x 10 prop today. It was coming in fast for landing and I damaged landing gear plate. It is now fixed. I was flying plane at a cotton field and tried to land plane on 8 foot wide runway for the cropduster
believe it or not, now i have the 16 x 6 prop on her.
i never got to use the 14 x 12 prop, i may have lied!!
12-18-2012, 08:29 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
On that Saito 100, the correct prop for you will all depend on your flying style. Two of the common styles are speed and aerobatic. The speed guys are always going to go for a high pitch prop of less diameter. The aerobtic guys will go for a larger diameter and less pitch. I fall into the latter category so pay no attention to me if you are into speed. So for me on the Saito 100, the 15x6 would give me what I want for close in aerobatics and maybe even a little hovering. That should also be relaxing for the sport flyier. I like to play with the 15x4Wide prop too for hovering. On the Horizon web site, Saito specs, it says you can use a 14x10 which would be good for some speed. So a 14x8 would not load the engine so much and sounds reasonable for breaking it in.
12-19-2012, 09:46 AM
#6156
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RE: Larger Revolver
Orthobird - you hit 120 mph with a 15x10? (APC?) That's fast for a Rev 70! Was that out of a dive? Is your engine a Saito 125 4s? Would be cool if you tried the 14x12 - wonder what speed you'd clock.
12-19-2012, 11:55 AM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Great help WjC !!! I am sure you're right.... Do you agree that a Zoar wood or APC prop in a 15X6 would be a good match to start with on my Revolver 70" w/ Saito FA-100?
It's a good thing I didn't order the Zinger.... the cost of shipping is equal to the prop itself!
I'll just break my engine in with The APC 14x8, and buy the 15x6 at my LHS. Your thoughts???
I'll just break my engine in with The APC 14x8, and buy the 15x6 at my LHS. Your thoughts???
Thanks so much for that informatiion and help.... I do appreciate it greatly !
Don
12-19-2012, 12:03 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Don:
The 15x6 is in the recommended range for the Saito 100. I think supporing the LHS is a good thing. You might buy two, because you may break one. Ask me how I know [
]
You might think about the APC first, until you are entirely comfortable landing without prop strikes; the APC are much more forgiving that wood props which, if you touch the ground, will convert your prop to a paint stirring implement.
Bill
The 15x6 is in the recommended range for the Saito 100. I think supporing the LHS is a good thing. You might buy two, because you may break one. Ask me how I know [
]You might think about the APC first, until you are entirely comfortable landing without prop strikes; the APC are much more forgiving that wood props which, if you touch the ground, will convert your prop to a paint stirring implement.
Bill
12-19-2012, 12:16 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Hey Bill ! You're a hot ticket, my friend! Gotta love the humor. I too, have broken a few props, well maybe more than a few!
I think I will stick with my 14x8 for break-in, as I stated, and move to the wood, as you stated. A great strategy, btw.
...and yes, I try all the time to give as much of my business as possible to my LHS, he's also a really nice guy.... Creative Hobbies in Mendon, MA.
Thanks again for all your help and wisdom.
Don
I think I will stick with my 14x8 for break-in, as I stated, and move to the wood, as you stated. A great strategy, btw.
...and yes, I try all the time to give as much of my business as possible to my LHS, he's also a really nice guy.... Creative Hobbies in Mendon, MA.
Thanks again for all your help and wisdom.
Don
12-19-2012, 04:13 PM
#6161
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RE: Larger Revolver
Hi yes, it is the new saito 125 4s, very torquy. i used the 15 x10, i never went to the 14 x 12, scared to see what would happen.
that landing was rough. with the 16 x 6, plane flies like a dream, probably 80 mph or so, lands very well, and i can do what i want with her. the higher pitch prop, it seemed, if you were not hitting the throttle, the plane would just lose altitude. i will stick with the 16 x 6 for now.
that landing was rough. with the 16 x 6, plane flies like a dream, probably 80 mph or so, lands very well, and i can do what i want with her. the higher pitch prop, it seemed, if you were not hitting the throttle, the plane would just lose altitude. i will stick with the 16 x 6 for now.
12-19-2012, 04:27 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Ortho
I have flown the R70 /DLE20 with 17x6, 16x8, 15x10, and 14x12. She gets better with speed! The flight experience was tame with the 17x6, even with high rates. She would climb on the vertical forever, but did not move. The 16x8 was better, but i really like the 14x12. The airframe is clean, and she moves well. My low idle is about 1550 rpm, and even with a 12 pitch prop, she settles onto the runway very well. Vertical performance with the 12 pitch prop is still strong, although not unlimited. Vertical performance with the 10 pitch prop was essentially unlimited.
Remember that the efficiency of high pitch props diminishes at low speed, so the theoretical airspeed from a high pitch (10-12") prop will not correspond to the actual airspeed at idle.
Low rate rolls at 95-100mph are QUICK - probably 720*/sec or so. I have not done a high rate aileron roll at high speed yet. I am guessing that she will roll 3 1/2 to 4 rolls per second on high rates (up to 1440*/sec), which is crazy. [I have had only one other plane that rolled that quickly - an Aeroworks Extra 260 (.60-.90) with an OS AX 1.20 up front.] I would not think of snapping her (the R70) at that speed, because it might cause catastrophic airframe failure.
I do have a 13.5 pitch prop for her, but will get my EagleTree data with the 12 pitch first.
Bill
I have flown the R70 /DLE20 with 17x6, 16x8, 15x10, and 14x12. She gets better with speed! The flight experience was tame with the 17x6, even with high rates. She would climb on the vertical forever, but did not move. The 16x8 was better, but i really like the 14x12. The airframe is clean, and she moves well. My low idle is about 1550 rpm, and even with a 12 pitch prop, she settles onto the runway very well. Vertical performance with the 12 pitch prop is still strong, although not unlimited. Vertical performance with the 10 pitch prop was essentially unlimited.
Remember that the efficiency of high pitch props diminishes at low speed, so the theoretical airspeed from a high pitch (10-12") prop will not correspond to the actual airspeed at idle.
Low rate rolls at 95-100mph are QUICK - probably 720*/sec or so. I have not done a high rate aileron roll at high speed yet. I am guessing that she will roll 3 1/2 to 4 rolls per second on high rates (up to 1440*/sec), which is crazy. [I have had only one other plane that rolled that quickly - an Aeroworks Extra 260 (.60-.90) with an OS AX 1.20 up front.] I would not think of snapping her (the R70) at that speed, because it might cause catastrophic airframe failure.
I do have a 13.5 pitch prop for her, but will get my EagleTree data with the 12 pitch first.
Bill
12-21-2012, 08:00 PM
#6163
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RE: Larger Revolver
Flew her again today. used the 16 x 6 prop. had not flown her in 3 months since i was working on my 40% 3W Extra 330S. she is now ready and hopefully maiden will be tomorrow, weather permitting.
When i flew the revolver today, she flew the best ever, and the saito 125 was working the best ever. inverted flight was also better than ever as well. i did change the pushrods for the elevators, don't know if that has anything to do with it. I fly my plane at two fields. one is about 50 minutes away, and it is an AMA RC plane field. it has a great pit area and runway is really good. the other place i go to is an official FAA registered airport out in the middle of nowhere, which seems abandoned for now. there is a cropduster there, but it is functioning during spring and summer. i know the owner and the pilot, and they have given me permission to fly there. they have a 4000 feet long runway that is about 9 feet wide. the crop-duster pilot tells me he will take the plane off on the runway, but he lands on the strip of grass next to runway. the grass runway has tall grass on it. he states by landing on the grass, it helps to make the rubber on the wheels last longer. today, i flew at the field that is 5 minutes from my house. i was there alone, as always, no one is out there, LOL. i landed the plane on runway, and once it lost speed, and was about to stop, it must have been going 10 MPH, the plane came off the runway and into the clay dirt, and the main landing gears snapped off. i just finished gluing them again with 30 minute epoxy and fiberglass powder mix.
12-21-2012, 08:32 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Orthobird -
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXNM65&P=ML + 1/4 ply + blind nuts = gear that will never fail.
12-22-2012, 04:49 AM
#6166
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RE: Larger Revolver
Thank you microdon, but the landing gear was not the area of failure, i should have clarified this. The area of failure was in the plywood plate that is glued to fuselage. The landing gear has not bent or broken. It was where it was attached into fuselage. this has been 2nd time that has happened. I have seen on this thread where this has been described in past, and some of you have come up with some great fixes. in particular i really like the solution whereby a aluminum or light metal "L" shaped bracket is used to reinforce this area. My only concern with this is that if it is too stiff and will not fail, then if impact is great enough, the damage may occur in airframe. I may be wrong to think this.
Dear Ernie, i am glad you enjoyed it. today, i will go to the flying field to see if i can maiden the 40% Extra 330 S. Weather today is calm wind, current temp is 32 degrees. high for today will be 54 degrees. wish me luck!!!
That is my 5 year old daughter next to plane, just to give you an idea on the size of the plane. and she is at the 90th percentlie for her age with regards to her height.
That is my 5 year old daughter next to plane, just to give you an idea on the size of the plane. and she is at the 90th percentlie for her age with regards to her height.
12-22-2012, 06:16 AM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Ortho
Your failure point is THE common failure point for R70 gear. As you say, it is not the gear, it is the LG mounting plate. In addition to the reinforcing you have done, you might think about a 1/8 or 3/32 plywood plate almost the width of the fuse, and extending from the firewall aft to the first former behind that - perhaps 6 inches long. Epoxy that to the structure 'outside' the fuse, cover with monokote, and you are good to go.
The plate transfers the bending moment in the pitch axis at the LG mounting plate to more of the airframe, and yet it is still wood, and will generally fracture before causing catastrophic damage to the airframe. I share your concerns about beefing up the LG area TOO MUCH, because there must be a designed point of failure that causes the minimal amount of damage - kind of like a shear pin (designed failure point) in heavy duty lawn, garden, and snow equipment.
BTW, i am using that approach on my R90 as well. For a big plane - 19# - that main LG area does not look strong enough for me.
Nice Extra! Enjoy flying her.
Your failure point is THE common failure point for R70 gear. As you say, it is not the gear, it is the LG mounting plate. In addition to the reinforcing you have done, you might think about a 1/8 or 3/32 plywood plate almost the width of the fuse, and extending from the firewall aft to the first former behind that - perhaps 6 inches long. Epoxy that to the structure 'outside' the fuse, cover with monokote, and you are good to go.
The plate transfers the bending moment in the pitch axis at the LG mounting plate to more of the airframe, and yet it is still wood, and will generally fracture before causing catastrophic damage to the airframe. I share your concerns about beefing up the LG area TOO MUCH, because there must be a designed point of failure that causes the minimal amount of damage - kind of like a shear pin (designed failure point) in heavy duty lawn, garden, and snow equipment.
BTW, i am using that approach on my R90 as well. For a big plane - 19# - that main LG area does not look strong enough for me.
Nice Extra! Enjoy flying her.
12-22-2012, 07:56 AM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Ortho -
Along the lines of what WJC said, I add an additional floor (I think it's 1/8, or 5/32) inside the fuse, just aft of the stock blind nuts. I cut a hole in the gas tank box for easy access, then insert two halves of wood (cut in half so that they can slide in) and 30 min epoxy them down. (It adds a little weight, but l think it's worth it.) Then I drill four holes in the gear in a box formation, not straight line (like the stock). Then you drill the holes in the fuse from the outside, using the gear-holes as a guide. Then add blind nuts. I use the Dubro gear cause it's incredibly strong and resilient. Then I paint it white (fuel-proof paint) and add three colors of trim to match the plane.
I've crashed a few Rev 59s' and 70's and this floor \ gear setup is the most solid part of the plane. The gear also seems to flex enough to absorb shocks (I've had some rough landings, too). I can understand wanting to keep the stock gear cause they look nice, but I find the split-gear and in-line bolts an inherently weak design.
When I do get my Rev 90 I'll have to find another gear, though, as Dubro doesn't make one that size. Maybe I'll invest in carbon fiber.
Mike
Along the lines of what WJC said, I add an additional floor (I think it's 1/8, or 5/32) inside the fuse, just aft of the stock blind nuts. I cut a hole in the gas tank box for easy access, then insert two halves of wood (cut in half so that they can slide in) and 30 min epoxy them down. (It adds a little weight, but l think it's worth it.) Then I drill four holes in the gear in a box formation, not straight line (like the stock). Then you drill the holes in the fuse from the outside, using the gear-holes as a guide. Then add blind nuts. I use the Dubro gear cause it's incredibly strong and resilient. Then I paint it white (fuel-proof paint) and add three colors of trim to match the plane.
I've crashed a few Rev 59s' and 70's and this floor \ gear setup is the most solid part of the plane. The gear also seems to flex enough to absorb shocks (I've had some rough landings, too). I can understand wanting to keep the stock gear cause they look nice, but I find the split-gear and in-line bolts an inherently weak design.
When I do get my Rev 90 I'll have to find another gear, though, as Dubro doesn't make one that size. Maybe I'll invest in carbon fiber.
Mike
12-22-2012, 09:32 AM
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RE: Larger Revolver
My Revolver was delivered today! Trulypsychedabout getting her setup and ready to take to the air. Not a Christmaspresent, my birthday, which is actually Christmas eve, but celebratedusuallyone week early.
I have, however, been reading this thread vociferously. When I read about the LG issue, my decision is to use a combination of @microdon2's suggestion (the Dubro one piece LG) and @ wjc's suggestion to beef-up the exterior and the interior with ply, as
I do not understand why this is still being mfr'd this way? I do love the original LG looks, but being split in two-halves, with bolts going only in one direction, seems to be the proverbial "failure looking for a time to happen". Additionally, on the aluminum piece, I totally agree with the lack of a "weak-point" premise that has been pointed out. I am sure it will serve the structural need, but upon a hard landing, or something else, your going to rip a lot of wood out that fuse and possibly the firewall.
On another point:
@wjc: I also read that youbelieve, as I do, that a good, strong (and hopefully fast) servo would be best for this plane,especiallywith it's speed andmaneuverability. I was thinking along the lines of:
or
You also wrote that you calculated the required amount of torque needed (for the rudder @ 38* @50mph. Where can I find those formulas and more like them, as I love engineering stuff. Thank you for all of your help, previously and now.
BTW: @ Microdon2: Great looking LG.... nice paint or cover job.... I may steal your idea 
Thank you in advance to all who reply. I appreciate it greatly.
Don
12-22-2012, 09:39 AM
#6172
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RE: Larger Revolver
I think something to consider it the fact the center layers of chinese lite ply are best thought of as glorified saw dust? There is no strength when it comes to plates like the one we're talking about.
The other piece is that it's virtually impossible to fasten something like that to the firewall. When it touches down hard, whatever is there will let go at that juncture, pulling that plate out by it's roots. That's why that alum. mod works so well. It fastens that LG plate to the firewall without fear of failure.
The other piece is that it's virtually impossible to fasten something like that to the firewall. When it touches down hard, whatever is there will let go at that juncture, pulling that plate out by it's roots. That's why that alum. mod works so well. It fastens that LG plate to the firewall without fear of failure.
12-22-2012, 10:05 AM
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RE: Larger Revolver
@ahicks, Ahhh, now I see what you mean. I was thinking about how to make an angled aluminum piece, when it hit me that they may carry something close to what was shown in that an earlier thread/solution. I headed over to HD, and found this... your thoughts???
It most likely will need some trimming, which is easy enough, but strength, I am not sure. They have MANY sizes, so I just picked one, so as not to dirty up this thread, just go over to their website and search "aluminum angle".
Your opinions on which would be best fit, is greatly appreciated, if any.
I went to Lowe's website as well. They have some( a half dozen or so), not as many as HD, but they are ALL listed as lightweight, which is good for our application, but bad (maybe), in terms of strength????
Too many decisions and options, makes for a confused man... well, OK, I am ALWAYS confused, but that's another story. 
Thanks,
Don
12-22-2012, 01:10 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Don:
Here is one of the torque calculators out there
http://www.mnbigbirds.com/Servo%20To...0Caculator.htm
Cannot vouch for it in all details, but it seems to work.
I always install servos that will supply 75-100% more torque that is required. That is just me; i don't like pushing my equipment to the limit. For the R70, i think either of the servos you have would be fine. i have some HS5645 in a 25% Extra and they have been rock solid.
Another alternative would be Savox:
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...tal-Gear-Servo
I am flying some 1256TG in my AW Extra 300 50cc, and they are quick and strong; the 0252mg are about the same torque as those you have looked at, and are a bit quicker and a bit cheaper.
To ahicks point, there is value it tying the main LG plate to the FW, from the standpoing of resisting the pitch-axis torque; i have done that using triangle stock on the inside, but light aluminum angle is certainly another way to do it. The ply i use is quality stuff, but you do have to be careful.
Best wishes
Bill
Here is one of the torque calculators out there
http://www.mnbigbirds.com/Servo%20To...0Caculator.htm
Cannot vouch for it in all details, but it seems to work.
I always install servos that will supply 75-100% more torque that is required. That is just me; i don't like pushing my equipment to the limit. For the R70, i think either of the servos you have would be fine. i have some HS5645 in a 25% Extra and they have been rock solid.
Another alternative would be Savox:
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...tal-Gear-Servo
I am flying some 1256TG in my AW Extra 300 50cc, and they are quick and strong; the 0252mg are about the same torque as those you have looked at, and are a bit quicker and a bit cheaper.
To ahicks point, there is value it tying the main LG plate to the FW, from the standpoing of resisting the pitch-axis torque; i have done that using triangle stock on the inside, but light aluminum angle is certainly another way to do it. The ply i use is quality stuff, but you do have to be careful.
Best wishes
Bill
12-22-2012, 02:10 PM
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RE: Larger Revolver
Hi Bill!
I can always count on you, my friend. Thanks for the calculator site... BUT !!!!!....... I have to say.... Those servos are unreal ! Awesome numbers (spd/torq) and at a TOTALLY fantastic price... half the price ! ... that's a no-brain'r to me! I don't have any servos (except throttle & lower torque servos for a 40 size) purchased for this plane (Revolver 70), so I am definitely going with them! I may even buy two for the elevators, instead of one to handle both sides, should I go that route.
Question:
Do you have any suggestions on getting the wings on more easily than I just tried... two person job, and really, really tight fit. Also the alignment nibs/holes do not line-up from wing to fuse.
I am kind of disappointed at the condition of the plane, as delivered. It has many, many wrinkles on every surface, and a dent in the fuse. But, for the price, for such a nice looking and a nice flyer/performer, it is money well spent. I might even buy another mid-2013 as a gasser. Can't wait to get her built up, but going to take my time while the snow flies and put skis on my Big Stik for winter flying while I build.
BTW, I am thinking of actually removing the ailerons and re-attaching with either HD Nylon (pinned) hinges (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXD941&P=ML
or[/b]
Robart pinned hinges (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXET57&P=ML) I own the 1/8' Robart's, but believe they are not strong/hefty enough for KE spins and the like.
. Your thoughts? Anyone's thoughts??? I have always had a tad bit of trouble making sure the Robart hinges are lined up perfectly, do you have any suggestions?
I "think" the Nylon Hinges will hold if I use a "pinned"- type attachment in addition to epoxy, which I usually do, by putting three (3) toothpicks (sharp-pointed down through three (3) of the available six (6) holes (ex. In through the wing half, through the nylon hinge, and then partially, not fully through the other side of the wing half balsa, in a pattern like X - O - X
O - X - O
>========O < cotter pin
O - X - O
X - O - X
I hope that shows the configuration OK...??? If not a take a pic to better depict, just let me know.
Thanks Bill, I always appreciate and trust your opinion (esp. on over-sizing servos as it has always served me well).
Don