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  1. #1
    jmcowart's Avatar
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    Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    The Tower Trainer .60 recommends a .61 two stroke engine. I would like to install a four stroke. I have available a new O.S. FS-95V engine. To my novice eye it seems this would not be unreasonable or too much engine for the aircraft.

    I not only have a four stroke engine available, I prefer the four stroke for sound, and believe Iwould rther have the torque available instead of high end rpm.

    Does anyone have opinions on this plan? Any advice or experience you can pass on? I don't think I'm getting ready to mess up, but then again Iam a for-sure novice and would very much appreciate any discussion, ideas, suggestions, or anything else on this subject.

    Thanks you'all. Mike.
    Mike
    Douglasville, GA

  2. #2
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    Well, I would say that for a beginner, a two stroke is the simplest setup for a trainer aircraft. Four stroke engines can be a bit difficult for someone that is not familiar with them. I'm sure there will be differing opinions, but that's the way it is here.

    If you are happy with the engine, and can get it to start and run reliably, then go with it. You will save some money. If you are the least bit hesitant, then perhaps a good reliable two stroke is in order for a while. Then you can always switch over to the four stroke later on. Engines never go to waste in this hobby.

    CGr
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  3. #3

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    The only real problem I can think of is that your plane could end up being really nose-heavy with no good way to correct it. You'll also have to be careful with your throttle so you don't flutter something off. Lastly, have an experienced builder look at the kit and see if he thinks you need to reinforce the nose to withstand the additional power.

    If you can afford it I would buy the .61 and leave the four-stroke for a future model that it's better suited for.
    Work is what I do for the love of it. A job is how I pay for it.
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  4. #4
    bigedmustafa's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    The O.S. Max FS-95v is only 22 ounces with Muffler, which is comparable to most .61 2-stroke engines.

    Other than having to rework the throttle linkage a bit, the FS-95v should work fine on a Tower Trainer .60 ARF
    When everybody is out to get you, paranoia is just good thinking!

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    Better fuel economy, Better sound. I would go with the four stroke. Even the dreaded throttle linkage isn't really that bad of a problem. I have yet to find a plane that I couldn't run a cable in sheith to the throttle and not have to make extra linkages or wild bends. Just plan ahead for the throttle linkage and you will be OK. I always use a ball link on the throttle, and I run into length issues with the threaded solder on end for the cable and the length of the ball socket. Shorten every thing up as far as you can and you will be OKfor rear travel of the throtle.

    Don

  6. #6
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    JM I think the real reason that has not been mentioned is most will suggest new folks start out with two strokes in prefereance to the four strokes is simply the fact that they tend to not do as well in crashs as a two stroke.

    Some may argue this but crashs do happen on occassion and they are very common with freshly solo'd folks as they expand their horizons. A totaled nice fourstroke hurts more than comparable two stroke.

    If you can get by that then go for it, its an elegant combination that you are proposing. With no real problems. In fact I rather like that new engine and have considered getting one.

    One other thought, if the airplane lives a long life then later on that combo would indeed serve well as your first float plane if you ever got interested.

    John
    \"Keep your controllines tight\"

  7. #7
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    the 95 is a fine engine... a buddy of mine has one and it runs like a dream, and its the quietest 90 sized 4s engine i have ever heard
    \"Propellers are notorious for inflicting serious bodily harm while vigorously defending their space\" George Aldrich

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60


    ORIGINAL: CGRetired

    Well, I would say that for a beginner, a two stroke is the simplest setup for a trainer aircraft. Four stroke engines can be a bit difficult for someone that is not familiar with them. I'm sure there will be differing opinions, but that's the way it is here.

    If you are happy with the engine, and can get it to start and run reliably, then go with it. You will save some money. If you are the least bit hesitant, then perhaps a good reliable two stroke is in order for a while. Then you can always switch over to the four stroke later on. Engines never go to waste in this hobby.

    CGr


    I agree, I believe he should start with a 2-stroke until he becomes more educated in the 4-stroke. I have 4-strokes and 2-strokes I still use today. I started with the 2-stroke then started using the 4-strokes after I was in the hobby for a while. Eventually I'll use gas, but right now I'm OK with the glow engines I have. If he's a member of a club, ( I hope he is) I believe he should buddy up with someone in the club that uses 4-strokes, and I'm sure they will give him a hand in what he needs to do, and what needs to be done in breaking the engine in and how to properly adjust the valves etc.


    Pete


  9. #9

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    Guys, you are making the four stroke sound like you need to be a faa certified mechanic to even think about taking it out of the box.

    To set up a 2 stroke.

    You position it on the motor mounts, drill and screw it to the motor mounts. run the throttle linkage to the throtle servo. Hook a fuel line from the carb to the klunk of the tank. Run a fuel line from the muffler to the tank vent. Hook up a glow ignighter, Start the engine. Tune the high speed needle. Tune the idle mix. Go back and tune them again. fly the plane.

    To set up a 4 storke.

    You position it on the motor mounts, drill and screw it to the motor mounts. run the throttle linkage to the throtle servo. Hook a fuel line from the carb to the klunk of the tank. Run a fuel line from the muffler to the tank vent. Hook up a glow ignighter, Start the engine. Tune the high speed needle. Tune the idle mix. Go back and tune them again. fly the plane.

    Not much difference isthere.

    Don

  10. #10
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    How many two strokes engines will easily backfire from improper tuning and spin the prop off? The only point we are trying to make is that a four stroke is just not for a beginner. That's all. We have absolutely no idea about the experience level of the OP.

    If the OP is comfortable with the four stroke, then, hey, go for it. If not, well, there are a lot of safe alternates until the OP has the exprience to safely run a four stroke. That's it. Simple enough.

    CGr
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  11. #11
    Pilotsmoe's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    ORIGINAL: JohnBuckner

    JM I think the real reason that has not been mentioned is most will suggest new folks start out with two strokes in prefereance to the four strokes is simply the fact that they tend to not do as well in crashs as a two stroke.

    Some may argue this but crashs do happen on occassion and they are very common with freshly solo'd folks as they expand their horizons. A totaled nice fourstroke hurts more than comparable two stroke.


    John
    Well, at least with 4 strokes, you're less likely to get dirt in the engine or bust the carb off in a crash. Don't think I ever totaled an engine in a crash. Maybe because the ground is soft?
    Joe AMA 618696

  12. #12

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60


    ORIGINAL: Campgems

    Guys, you are making the four stroke sound like you need to be a faa certified mechanic to even think about taking it out of the box.Β*

    To set up a 2 stroke.Β*

    You position it on the motor mounts, drill and screw it to the motor mounts.Β* run the throttle linkage to the throtle servo.Β* Hook a fuel line from the carb to the klunk of the tank.Β* Run a fuel line from the mufflerΒ* to the tank vent.Β* Hook up a glow ignighter,Β* Start the engine.Β* Tune the high speed needle.Β* Tune the idle mix.Β* Go back and tune them again.Β* fly the plane.

    To set up a 4 storke.

    You position it on the motor mounts, drill and screw it to the motor mounts. run the throttle linkage to the throtle servo. Hook a fuel line from the carb to the klunk of the tank. Run a fuel line from the muffler to the tank vent. Hook up a glow ignighter, Start the engine. Tune the high speed needle. Tune the idle mix. Go back and tune them again. fly the plane.

    Not much difference isΒ*there.Β*

    Don



    What Don said !


    OP, Great sounding combination IMO,

    Bob

  13. #13

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    In seven years that I'm back into the hobby, I've see exactly three engines spit their prop off. One was a four stroke and two were 40 size two stroke, one of them was mine. I don't see that as an issue. If it is, it is an argument for, not against the four stokes.

    Don


  14. #14
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    Well, Don, the only engines I've seen throw a prop at our field was four strokes. I guess it comes down to what we've seen in our experiences.

    CGr.
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  15. #15
    MetallicaJunkie's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    i certainly wouldnt recommend a 4 stroke to a beginner in general... sure they tune the same, but if a beginner get curious and takes apart a 2 stroke he'll be fine reassembling it.... not so sure on a 4 stroke, way more moving parts.... i remember a few ago i disassembled a 91 saito, and was overwhelmed... not anymore
    \"Propellers are notorious for inflicting serious bodily harm while vigorously defending their space\" George Aldrich

  16. #16
    jmcowart's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    Thanks for the stimulating discussion and flow if ideas, guys. I believe Iwill go with the .95 4-stroke. I am indeedmember of an AMA Chartered club and have an instructor who is experienced as both a pilot and as an O.S. four stroke operator. The FS-.95V fits great in the provided engine mount that comes with the trainer ARF, and I have made a 180 degree U-turn in the throttle pushrod to provide for clearance of both the firewall and the mount (and the engine cylinder fins, as well). I plan to use the reverse feature on the DX-8 to keep throttle stick movement traditional.

    Ialso have a Senior Telemaster ARF(which is the current challenge to, and baneof, my existence). Iam also working on that, without experience, instruction, or any degree of luck at all. Now that Ihave about finished assembling the Tower Trainer I will use the experience and the actual instruction booklet to help me finish the telemaster. I plan another O.S. FS-.95V for that one as well.

    Finally, Ihave a Big Stick .60 from Great Planes ARF in the box sitting there ready to go (with plans for another .95 for it). I'm not even going to start on that ARF until I can fly the Tower Trainer and the Senior Telemaster competently.

    Its all fun though. And I tell you from a novice point of view - it is great thing to have all the talent and experience of you guys on tap as I go along. Thank you very much. Mike.
    Mike
    Douglasville, GA

  17. #17
    JohnBuckner's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60


    ORIGINAL: Pilotsmoe

    ORIGINAL: JohnBuckner

    JM I think the real reason that has not been mentioned is most will suggest new folks start out with two strokes in prefereance to the four strokes is simply the fact that they tend to not do as well in crashs as a two stroke.

    Some may argue this but crashs do happen on occassion and they are very common with freshly solo'd folks as they expand their horizons. A totaled nice fourstroke hurts more than comparable two stroke.

    John
    Well, at least with 4 strokes, you're less likely to get dirt in the engine or bust the carb off in a crash. Don't think I ever totaled an engine in a crash. Maybe because the ground is soft?

    Well moe all I can tell you is since 1954 I have continuously seen many, many did I say a bunch of engines, totalled in crashs beyond economical repair. And thats any kind of engine.
    Now it is entirely reasonable to suggest to any new folks that "A totaled nice fourstroke hurts more than a comparable two stroke".

    Also there is one very popular fourstroke (excellent engine by the way) that seems to loose its entire upper end (the entire cylinder) with firm arrivals at the wrong angle, seen this often with inverted mounts on asphalt runways or our native desert hardpan.

    There is no need to turn this into an internet barking match over two verses four strokes. What I pointed out is just an important reason that many of us who are active mentors do suggest always starting out with two over fourstrokes.

    John
    \"Keep your controllines tight\"

  18. #18
    Texastbird's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    We had an elderly man start off with a 60 size trainer and a Saito 80 and he did just fine. But we have instructors and use buddy boxes to keep the beginners out of trouble. I would think you will have to learn to use the throttle with that big bad boy OS.

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    ORIGINAL: CGRetired

    Well, Don, the only engines I've seen throw a prop at our field was four strokes. I guess it comes down to what we've seen in our experiences.

    CGr.

    Right on Brother! There are occasions when a 2-stroke throws a prop. It happened to me 3 years ago. I once had a Evolution 61NX in my Hanger 9 Fokker, but soon after I took out that junk motor and swapped it out for the O.S. 61FX.

    Anyway I was flying along during a club picnic then I heard a high pitched whine, and saw my prop come flying off, then my engine quit. ( It all happened in a blink of an eye) I managed to "deadstick" the plane in the tall grass, and when I took the plane home that day my engine was toast! I lost all compression after that, so my wife had no problem with me buying another engine. My O.S. that have in it now, has not given me one problem. (knock on wood, spin around 3x's) Thank God, taking the cowl off my DVII is quite a pain.

    So yes CGr, it does happen but it is rare. I think it was because I didn't tighten down the prop bolt enough? [:-] Still to this day I haven't found my prop! [:@]

    Below is the happy pic of me and my plane just after the incident. No damage to the plane- not even a scratch!


    Pete


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  20. #20
    Sport_Pilot's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60


    ORIGINAL: Campgems

    Guys, you are making the four stroke sound like you need to be a faa certified mechanic to even think about taking it out of the box.

    To set up a 2 stroke.

    You position it on the motor mounts, drill and screw it to the motor mounts. run the throttle linkage to the throtle servo. Hook a fuel line from the carb to the klunk of the tank. Run a fuel line from the muffler to the tank vent. Hook up a glow ignighter, Start the engine. Tune the high speed needle. Tune the idle mix. Go back and tune them again. fly the plane.

    To set up a 4 storke.

    You position it on the motor mounts, drill and screw it to the motor mounts. run the throttle linkage to the throtle servo. Hook a fuel line from the carb to the klunk of the tank. Run a fuel line from the muffler to the tank vent. Hook up a glow ignighter, Start the engine. Tune the high speed needle. Tune the idle mix. Go back and tune them again. fly the plane.

    Not much difference isthere.

    Don

    You left off the break in and setup. Valve adjustment, differances in tuning (hard to tune a 4 stroke by ear, and other. That said I would put a cheap 2 stroke on a trainer, if nothing else than the fact it costs less to lose in a crash. Keep the four stroke for your future low wing trainer. Nothing wrong with having an older trainer to warm up with before flying the low wing craft.
    Glow Head Brotherhood #15

  21. #21
    Sport_Pilot's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    Maybe because the ground is soft?
    If you are lucky enough to hit soft ground in a crash. It has been a very long time since I had a powered dive in crash, but I do recall one that hit the pavement. I recall one crash where someone found that Georgia red clay is almost hard as a brick during thedrought a few years back.
    Glow Head Brotherhood #15

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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    jmcowart

    In general I think that a 91 four stroke (not familar with 95) is a great engine for just about any 60 size plane.

    My advice to a novice is usually find a field, find an instructor, buy what the people you will be relying on for help like to work with new flyers with.

    When you bring what you want you should be able to work through the problems yourself. There is plenty of help here and other places so you can be totally ready when you get to the field.
    Oops!

  23. #23
    rowdog_14's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    I purchased a Hobbistar 60 and put a saito 100 on it and put a 3 blade prop on it to control the speed. More than enough power. Here is a video of mine.4 strokes are normally about the same weight when you compare the same class .60 2c to a .90 4c. OS 4c are usually a little heavier than other manf. I say put it on there you will be fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsNyTy1T9l0[/youtube]

    This plane came out on the light side of the recommended weight, and I had to add about 2.5oz to the nose to balance it out.
    THE T.R.U.T.H

  24. #24
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    We all generally conclude that the four stroke in question (or any other four stroke for that matter) will work just fine. I believe the point here is if the engine is suitable for a beginner, given the differences in complexity in the engines, setup, tuning, and maintenance.

    If the OP is not "just a beginner" where he would not need an instructor nor a buddy box, then perhaps, if the OP is willing to try it out, well, it would be fine.

    Heck, with the four stroke engine in hand, and if the OP is comfortable with it, what the heck.. it would make a fine pair, no doubt.

    BUT, and there is always one of those, there is some doubt about the level of experience with the OP and I am basically saying, that if it is within the budget, well, save the four stroke for later and get a good quality 60 sized engine... say the OS .75 AX for example, which I own two and love.

    CGr.
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  25. #25
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    RE: Four Stroke Engine in Tower Trainer .60

    jmcowart you still live in Douglasville, GA? I just moved from there, I lived right down rd from Wellstar off of Hospital Dr. I live in Marietta now, but I still go to Douglasville often.

    I will actually be in Douglasville on Monday 24th to pickup the rest of my planes from my brother in laws house.
    THE T.R.U.T.H


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