Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

Everyone,

please tell me WHY it is wrong for a good competent R/C flight instructor to charge for their time ? Full size instructors charge for their time-whats the difference ? BTW, this is a real sincere question.


Jackjet

magnum

Hey JetJack,

Boy are you going to get a lot of response to that question

I will go against the norm here(flame shields on). I don't think there is anything actually WRONG with it. After all there are places that advertise where you go for a week and they will provide the planes and teach you to fly and build your plane. I actual considered taking a vacation and doing that. But, I opted for a week on the beach

The thing is, no one should have to pay to learn to fly. Like any hobby there are plenty of people who will teach you how to fly for free, and at most clubs.

One of my hobbies is painting, now there are not many places I know of that will teach me to airbrush for free. But I didn't have to pay to learn - my company paid for it

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

Magnum,
I just don't see what the problem is-if the people involved agree to xxx$... next someone will be saying that it's wrong to for people to sell kits.........please




Jackjet

cassio

Hey,
I think there is no problem on pay or charge for instruction. Like Jackjet told, they agreed to it ... But, like magnum wrote, why should I pay for instruction if there is many good flyers ready for do it free?
What I consider important is take instruction, paying or not, because the damage is smaller ( my instructor saved my plane several times...

Nathan

My Feedback: (12)

I have no problem with someone charging for lessons. I also have no problem if someone were to charge me for their advice. The only problem is, that would be like charging me to learn about model railroading or stamp collecting.

This is a hobby that promotes helping others. If I have anything wrong with anything, there's a few guys at my club I know to go to for answers. If I'm struggling with a manuever, landing, taking off, whatever... there's a few guys at my club I know to talk to for help. If I just can't seem to figure out what the plans and instructions are saying, a quick phone call will have someone coming to my workshop to help. If I am having problems setting up my helicopter, a quick trip to a fellow modelers shop will get me flying. This hobby is about helping others. Helping at the field, on the phone, over the internet, at each others workshop. It's in this spirit I believe you'll find the reason most, if not all, clubs offer free lessons with membership.

R/C aircraft is a small group of people. Look in your town... what 's the percentage of R/C flyers? Now look at the percentage that are golfers. It's not an industry that lends itself to money making ventures. Golf on the other is an extremely popular hobby right now. It makes a lot of money for a lot of people. It's an industry that lends itself to money making ventures. R/C just doesn't have that kind of backbone, so we rely on the support and kindness of others.

There is certainly nothing wrong with charging someone for lessons, but it's just not part of the make up this hobby enjoys.

TopShelf

My Feedback: (4)

I think the main difference between payed instruction vs. non-payed is expectation. If I'm paying someone, I would expect them to be at the field at the agreed upon time 99% of the time. If it's volunteered help, I don't expect to be #1 on their runway.

It's all a matter of availablity. When I was learning, there were times when hooking up with my instructer was difficult and I was fine with that as he was taking time away from his family and his flying to help me. If I was paying the guy, I would expect appointments to be kept and that they would generally work with my schedule needs not whenever it was convienent for the instructor.

Kent

magnum

Kent,

I think you and PLane Insane hit it on the nail.

I think it's all about friendship also. This hobby has some of the greatest people, who are not shy on sharing information to other flyers.

rccc

Gentlemen,

The answer to this question is somewhat multifaceted.

Being one just getting into the hobby, I needed help. Having gone to the local field a couple of times, and one of the 'Mall Shows', I still ended up not knowing anyone who would teach me. Nor was I confident that those that were 'supposed' to be there on Saturday were going to show or not.

1. I live in the north. We just got 72" of snow in the last several days. Like the expression says, 'make hay when the sun shines'.
2. I have a young family that should dominate my time. When free time arises, it must be maximized.
3. As a professional, my clients pay for my time if I show up on time and provide the service promised.

For these reasons, if my instructor, whom I was introduced to and confirmed his credentials, shows up on time, is available for ?'s, and is the catalyst for properly entering this sport, why should he not be paid for his service.

Snow skiing (replace with a favored personal sport) is a lot of fun. Ever see people that are properly instructed over those that are not? They pay for instruction and end up being life-long addicts of skiing. Those that don't (for the most part) roll around in the snow, injure themselves or others, and generally learn to dislike a great sport.

How is this sport/hobby any different?

It is not.

Those that believe so are plagued with a misguided omnipotence that is the cause of the secularism that excludes people from getting involved in a very rewarding hobby. Both personally and friendship-wise.

Say what you want. But if I can't count on someone to be there at a relatively certain time, I'll just have to do what the vast majority of 'Club-Learners' do - wait until retirement so that I'll have the free time to wait around for 'Ole-Joe' (insert local field celebrity) to come by if he doesn't get sidetracked by his Nephews birthday party, wife needing the gutters cleaned (don't know why that's important to them...), or any other reason that precludes them from coming when I'm free and the weather's right.

RCCC
Niagara Falls, NY

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

RCCC,
you said it just right !

Jackjet

Jared

My Feedback: (1)

I'm a full scale instructor in addition to a model instructor. I would gladly provide all of my time for free, real airplanes and small ones included. There are many of my personal friends who qualify for the "CFI discount" depending on other favors etc. But, there are good reasons to charge. Here are a few ideas from my point of view:

1. It cost me a whole bunch to get my FAA Flight instructor certificate; somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000. That is quite a few props! I am much more likely to want to charge $20 per hour to fly real airplanes. CFI's have to go through training, while model instructors just have to have the guts to say "sure, I'll do it!" Due to this situation, there are far more model instructors than there are full scale ones, and basic economics dictate the price. When I was at school where there were plenty of instructors, I was getting $14 per hour, while in my current large metro area, I'm getting $20. In the right place I could easily get $50-$30, just because there aren't any instructors around. Since model instructors are easy to come by, this demand issue is negligible.

2. Real airplane flying and instructing involves very serious risks and liability; the risk of riding around isn't all that large, since most trainers are easy to fly and reliable. They also have dual controls, and I am qualified to fly the airplane if the student freezes up or some such. However, if the wing falls off, dual controls don't have anything to do with it. The very serious risk in flight instruction is the liability; when I sign off a pilot for solo flight, I certify that I have given him the training to do so safely. If he decides to jaunt off to cuba for lunch, who do you think the FAA is going to call? If he decides that he wants to fly his airplane into something expensive, and he gets sued, I probably will be too. I am not going to take that risk without some type of incentive, such as pay and flight time. (as a certificated flight instructor I get to log the flight time that I spend instructing towards my own total time) If these risks were not involved, I would probably fly for free; however, they are inherent to aviation and probably will never go away. Note that these risks are negligible with models; thus I don't charge for buddy box time.

3. When I commence full scale flight training, it isn't because my student and I just happened to be hanging around the airport together. We make appointments and keep them unless canceled due to weather or maintenance, that kind of stuff. If a student leaves me hanging at the airport, I charge him a no-show fee equal to what he would have paid me for the flight. While some people may be willing to live with this kind of arrangement for models, it sure cuts down on the fun factor. I like airplanes and all, but I don't just sit around at the full scale airport; i have to drive out there, and that costs gas, and it also costs the time that I could have spent working at another job making $. On the other hand, I fly models in my spare time, and I do just hang around at the model field. This is another reason that I charge for full scale time and not for model time.

4. Model flying can be hard at first, but let's be serious; flying a real airplane takes much more skill and knowledge, and mistakes aren't easily forgiven with CA and monokote. The skills that it takes to fly a model are associated with only the first few hours of training in a real airplane. It helps a bunch if a student can fly with the same instructor (or at least one who has the same training techniques) to promote continuity. This makes for more logistical problems that lead to desire for pay. It takes a multitute of training, preparation, and studying on my part to be able to teach someone to fly, whereas models are relatively simple.

To answer your question, If you want to charge for your model instruction time, go ahead. I think it is pretty pitiful though, unless you are flying your own airplane and burning your own fuel. Maybe I should send you a bill for this post But, you do have a skill that is exclusive to a small group, so if you really insist I guess you can charge away. You can sort of compare it to full scale instruction, but not really. I don't really think you can use that excuse to rationalize it, because there are some big differences. Did anyone charge you when you learned to fly? just curious...

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

Jared,
very good answer,as far as did I pay for flight instruction-no I did not-I taught myself on a 3ft glider way back in 1968-was no one around to teach me-plus I read alot of books on avaition.I think that helped.Now when I train someone-I provide the trainer aircraft with engine and radio and fuel-and I charge-$30 per hour.I see nothing wrong with this.This IS the USA-(at least I think it still is)

Jackjet

magnum

Jacjet,

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However, at my field you may have some stiff competition. Since I have my own trainer, radio etc.. for people to use, and will provide the fuel (most will offer to pay the fuel, if they can't afford it they shouldn't be flying), and I won't charge anything.

However, since they have to join the club, I guess that means they are paying for someone to teach them after all..

In fact, no one is going to make a living at that, most will have a full time job. And I agree with RCCC. It is hard to get someone at the field on short notice, when you suddenly have some free time. But that can even happen with a paid instructor, they are usuall not available 24 hours a day. But, I have already setup a time for tomorrow with someone to help them out. He has no plane, and I will teach him on my plane until he gets confident, then he can buy his own plane.

But can you really teach someone to fly in just one hour?

rccc

Magnum,

Thank you for agreeing... I like to hear that. I make my wife repeat it when she every once in a while tells me i'm right!

Question: "But can you really teach someone to fly in just one hour?"
Answer: No, but you get a little bit each time you do it.

If I teach someone skiing for 6 hours straight, that's probably 5 that are wasted. I've burned them out and they're just following the leader. We all need down-time to percieve the concepts we've been shown. It's also why kids don't go to school for 8 full hour days and why we all have vacations. They/we need to grasp the concepts.

RCCC
Niagara Falls, NY

fourstar40

My Feedback: (27)

I think if you can find someone to pay you then "all the power to you". There isn't anything wrong with charging a person to teach R/C flying. But the real question is why would you pay someone if you can get it for free.

But one very good point here is,the guy is providing everything you need to fly when you learn. There's no risk to the student. And a big plus is if the student decides that maybe he doesn't like it then all he's out is the $30.00. It's a great deal if you look at all the angles.

Miniair

My Feedback: (1)

I don't know how your AMA works in regards to being paid for instruction but here in Canada our Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) will cancel your membership insurance and even your field insurance (if your club is chartered) while you are instructing.

Now our insurance is primary insurance so this may make a difference.

On another point - how do we get this hobby to keep growing? I know that there are allot of the younger people that would like to get into the hobby but the initial investment seems a little high for them; however some have saved everything they can and did get what was required to fly. How do you think they would feel if they were told after spending their hard saved dollar that they would have to pay to learn to fly.

Also look back at who taught these people to fly (the ones charging for their services) you might be surprised that an instructor taught them for free.

This hobby is for enjoyment - NOT to make money from. If the instructor is charging and using a club field then he should be paying the club for use of the field during thses instruction times - in other words pay rent if you're receiving an income from teaching.

Remember - HOBBY - NOT BUSINESS

magnum

Jim,

You bring up a good point. I do know at our field, since the air field is owned by the city, there can be no commercial business at the field. Charging for flying lessons could fall into that category. That would cause a big stink with the insurance.

Good point!

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

Minair,

I can't see why your version of the AMA does not want people to make money instructing-this is the land of free enterprize-thats why I like living here so much-if you are not allowed to make money from it-then how would anyone stay in bussiness-do you think mfgs. like OS,JR,Futaba,Super Tiger Engines,Jet Cat USA,SimJet,Great Planes,BVM Jets,Jet Hanger Hobbies,Top Flight Models,Tower Hobbies,etc,etc,etc.-should give this stuff away for free ? I mean why not- "this hobby is for the enjoyment of everyone"-right?So I don't see anything wrong with it-If they pay me-I will take the money-I train my students at a dry lake in So.Cal.I provide the aircraft and fuel.Even if they want to provide their own plane,I am providing a service-so I should be paid-just like a doctor,police officer,full size pilot,etc,etc.As far as saving up their money to buy a plane-well thats good-I am saving up mine so I can buy a brand new P160 turbine engine-$3695-but maybe if I call JetCat USA-they will just give me the engine if just say "please give me this engine,this hobby is for the enjoyment of everyone"-get real-capitolisim does not work this way-maybe communism does-but look what happened to Russia-so I provide a service- if you don't like the price-you are free to go somewere else.


Jackjet

Miniair

My Feedback: (1)

"Minair,

I can't see why your version of the AMA does not want people to make money instructing-this is the land of free enterprize-thats why I like living here so much-if you are not allowed to make money from it-then how would anyone stay in bussiness-do you think mfgs. like OS,JR,Futaba,Super Tiger Engines,Jet Cat USA,SimJet,Great Planes,BVM Jets,Jet Hanger Hobbies,Top Flight Models,Tower Hobbies,etc,etc,etc.-should give this stuff away for free ? I mean why not- "this hobby is for the enjoyment of everyone"-right?So I don't see anything wrong with it-If they pay me-I will take the money-I train my students at a dry lake in So.Cal.I provide the aircraft and fuel.Even if they want to provide their own plane,I am providing a service-so I should be paid-just like a doctor,police officer,full size pilot,etc,etc.As far as saving up their money to buy a plane-well thats good-I am saving up mine so I can buy a brand new P160 turbine engine-$3695-but maybe if I call JetCat USA-they will just give me the engine if just say "please give me this engine,this hobby is for the enjoyment of everyone"-get real-capitolisim does not work this way-maybe communism does-but look what happened to Russia-so I provide a service- if you don't like the price-you are free to go somewere else.


Jackjet "

As to why our insuring group does not allow this is it's a HOBBY - NOT a business. If you want to charge then go get a business license and your own insurance if you can afford it.

Secondly I'm not talking about the business end of this hobby but the hobby end of this hobby; and yes just about every hobby does have a business end but as I said we are talking about the HOBBY end.

I read that you were self taught - good for you as you are one of the few that has done it by themselves but i do imagine that you did get help with something related to this hobby - did you pay the person that gave you the help - I doubt it.

I supply plane. radios, fuel and all related equipment plus the cold pop all for nothing. It's part of getting and keeping this hobby growing.

You have to keep the business and the hobby separate and in some cases it's hard to do but it can be done - just ask me.

When I was taught to fly, no I'm not going to tell you when that was, I asked my instructor what he wanted for teaching me; he said that he wanted me to teach someone else when the time arrived and I've heard this from instructors more times than I can remember.

Free enterprise is fine and I agree with it but when it enters the hobby end it becomes a business and not a hobby.

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Jim,
I understand how you feel,-but if you look at this with a long hard look-it's ALL a bussiness.But hey,we can agree to disagree.


Wordup,Jackjet

fliers1

The point is that if there weren't so many desperate to find help beginners out there, and if there were so many volunteer instructors out there, no one would be able to get paid to teach.

As far as the legal aspects of teaching for pay goes, those who build for pay should legally be in the same boat as they are doing something for pay on the field, just as much as someone who teaches for pay. The argument is no one knows about two people making a deal off the field, obviously the building is done at someone's house, so what if the instruction deal is done off the field? Just as long as the paid instructor doesn't hang up a sign on the field, there is no business going on.

If the volunteer wants to know just how many beginners there are out there looking for help, he should add his name to AMA's instructor page, as a volunteer instructor. The list was supposed to be for RC instructors period, not just commercial instructors, but I don't think there are free instructor names on the list yet. You have to let people know that you are there for them, like a commercial instructor does. UMA has a instructor list page also, add your name there.

As far as getting paid to teach on an AMA field, the only person who isn't covered is the one getting paid. But at one time, the idea was that one could teach for pay if he didn't make a profit, after all, you have to pay club dues, couldn't that be considered teaching for pay? The paid instructor gave part to the club. Unfortunately too many folks have the mistaken idea that there are so many free instructors out there. Place an ad to teach for free or otherwise and when the droves of beginners show up and tell you that they came from clubs that offered "free" instruction, then everyone might see where the problem lies.

I just wonder why so many of those who already know how to fly has such a personal problem with paid instruction? I mean, if the beginner is ready, willing and able to pay to fly, that must mean he couldn't get as much if any free help. Only those who advertise to the public to teach would be aware of the huge numbers of beginners out there who cannot find anyone to give them the quality and quantity of instruction they feel they need.

The industry and modeling organization has spent big bucks to bring a large number of new customers to the clubs. Even AMA president Dave Brown knows that there just aren't enough volunteer instructors to go around. It's not even close. See: Oct. 1997 issue of Model Aviation, President's Perspective column.
The volunteer isn't in the "business" of market research so he wouldn't know what the current situation is. To those who know how to fly and has a flying field to fly on, everything is fine in the world of RC aeromodeling. It would be great if everyone got into market research to find out what is really going one in his hobby/sport. Just do this market research as a hobby.

CCR

http://www.mfarchive.modelstuff.co.uk/mf045/postbox.htm

rccc

Simply put: Free Market Economy

Let me restate: Supply and Demand dictate Price

If there wasn't a demand for the supply at hand, there would be no price. If the instructors are being paid, then the demand requires it (hence the term 'demand').

Yahoo Search engine defines over 3,000 hobbies listed. They include gardening. If gardening is so spectacular a hobby, why do I have a lawn service take care of it for me? Farming is a hobby for some, a living for others. Skiing - ever see the product of a 'self-taught' over a professionally trained? Motorcycle riding is a hobby (non-essential) - should trainers not be paid for those willing to pay? Should radio announcers not be paid? After all, their premise is an Amateur Radio Operators License they got as a hobby. Now they are performing a service.... hmmm the duality...

Bottom line - people shouldn't pay for it if it's available for free.

The quality and continuity, however, is worth it for me. I've spent one hell of a lot more on less enjoyable hobbies.

lt's all in the perspective. None are wrong if the outcome is more people in a great hobby.

RCCC
Niagara Falls, NY

fliers1

Dave Scott gets $600.00 per person, per week. I hear that he teaches 3 people per week. $1800.00 per week for a hobby isn't too shabby.

Ernie Huber's RC helicopter school gets $1000.00 per person, per week, room and board is extra. I think he has 3 customers per week. These guys must realize that there is a demand for their services and people are ready to pay that much.

Once more, the average volunteer instructor should place ads for his free services and he will soon see that there is a huge demand for RC flight instruction and people are ready to pay $1200.00 for a week's worth of instruction. Dave and Ernie found out that this was true.

Also, what the volunteer offers for instruction should not be confused to what a commercial instructor offers. The difference is like night and day for the most part. For the guy who is swamped with students, I wonder how much those students waiting in line would be willing to pay to learn ASAP? Trouble is, these beginners wouldn't be allowed to pay the club member for instruction because he is too ethical to charge or whatever reason so many can come up with. Sure would like to hear from the beginner.

Want to teach professionally full time? I'm sure that anyone could make a pretty good living doing this full time. I wonder why the hobby shop owner doesn't pay instructors, rather than simply complain about being shafted by mail-order?

CCR

Bob Ruth

What a wonderful fantasy, anyone can with the skills to teach R/C can make a living at it. Do you also promote Mary Kay? They also like to point out what the few high rollers make and ignore what the average joe/jane are going to make, trying to sell their goods.
Lets drop your pals into small cities and towns and see how long they could live doing nothing but teach R/C.
Never assume because a few can make a profit in certain high-income market areas that the same kind of business will show a profit in all markets. Many a fool has gone bankrupt from assuming that a business that makes high profits in New York City will be a money maker in Middle America.

You are very naive if you think adding an instructor to a hobby shop is going to rake in the money. First, there are all those little taxes, fees, insurances that the government requires the shop to pay for an employee. These alone are going to force the shop to charge more than the self-employed instructors that have almost zip overhead costs. Then since the shop is a business with assets and lawyers love to do lawsuits against businesses with assets they are going to have to get more insurance to cover themselves. Shall I continue or do you get the idea that the overhead for the instructor may be greater than the possible profit for a shop compared to a self employed person.

Lets go back to that little supply vs. demand chart you love. Each market area will have its own curves. If one goes through the proper research there will be two important points. One that indicates the price the shop must charge to make the instructor worth having and a point where the market price is. If the (shop charge price) is greater than the (market price) then the shop will not make a profit and should not waste the money.
I would not be surprised that in a lot of areas outside major cities with high-income areas that the shops would not see a profit. I would also not be surprised that in areas outside those major cities with high-income areas that a self-employed instructor could not pull down a living. A lot of people do not live in a silicone valley, New York or Dallas that run hobby shops or instruct R/C.

Free markets and economics are a bit more complex than just finding a few folks that have found a niche that makes them money and assuming that it will work everywhere for anyone with the same skills.

I have noticed that you seem to be hooked on money. Did you ever stop to think that the reason there are more people instructing for free at clubs, even in areas where they could make a living at it is that they get a greater profit from their feelings of satisfaction helping others as someone else helped them get started for free? That they enjoy their careers they already have a do not want to turn their hobby into a business?

Your final lesson for today is "Profit" in economics does not always mean money. Suppliers can compete for the same consumers and receive a different type of profit from providing the service.

So to go back to the original poster's question all instructors make a profit, but the profit is not always money. All students pay for their flying lessons in one form or another, whether it is waiting on a list and get limited flight time with a club instructor or give cash to a private instructor.

My Old Economics instructor in college use to say if you learn only one thing in economics it should be that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Bob Ruth

microflight

#1 AMA will not cover you if you charge someone.

And now for the big one???????????????

WHO TAUGHT YOU TO FLY???????????????????????
AND HOW MUCH DID THEY CHARGE????????????

I have taught more people to fly than I can remember and the only thing I ever told them that they owed me, was when they were able, help a new comer and teach them to fly.

rccc

All well and good. However, as a 36 year old with a young family and a mid-high level of income, I found that the only way I could get into the hobby is to maintain an instructor. There is no easy catalyst to segway into this hobby locally. Having been to the fields several times, not seeing the same people to begin to understand, not receiving a 'warm' welcome to 'come play with us'; more of a 'watch me fly - aren't I cool - this is really HARD - etc' reception, I was turned off for the three years I tried to get into this by those type of clubs everyone is flogging. The reality is that I simply needed to get going on this. Knowing nothing about it and getting someone to take the time to show you simply ain't a-happening in this geographic region. Understanding that the same can be said for any type of hobby/recreation inclusive of the Volunteer Fire Service (of which I actively participate). If you don't know somebody in the Fire Company, it's a relatively closed club. Tough to find someone, get the application, go through the months long process to become a member only to kind of get ignored cause you're a 'newbie'. Same thing on the flying field. "Gotta get your AMA card before I can show you anything" - huh? what? "Watch and learn" didn't get it for me either. Having vast open acreage directly behind my house it didn't seem to make a lot of sense to be demeened into ignorance after driving 20 minutes to go to a smaller area than I have right here.

So what to do about it? Having a young family I was looking for a hobby that could happen at home to gain 'family points' at the same time. So am preparing the immediate 14 acres to be converted into a flying field where people will be invited to come play/fly out in the country.

I agree there is no free lunch, but unless I found an instructor I would not be able to have gotten into this hobby. And I, for one, don't mind paying for it. If it costs me $X to learn to properly and safely fly the several thousands of dollars worth of planes and helicopters I have, it is at least a wash to me due to lack of need for repairs.

One of the beautys of Economics is the ability to look at the same model different ways and come up with entirely different sets of 'what if's'. When a service is provided, it has in inherent value and needs to be remunerated one way or another. Whether it be pride and friendship with those we know and take under our wings, or financial to those who prefer to demand a service at their schedules without regard for our own, it is valued and appreciate. Please understand that we're not talking about little billy smith down the street. We are talking about Doctors, Lawyers, Surgeons, and the like wanting to learn this NOW at their whim. The financial consideration is truly not a concern to THEM as it was not to ME. What works for us may not be commonplace in the 'r/c community', but without it these people with extreme disposable income would not partake. They don't have the time or volition to BS around. They are the type that hire a Captain to spend the summer with them on their new 50+ foot half million dollar boat to teach them how to drive it. Why? Because they've never been on the water before and they requre the immediate gratification to be able to DO IT NOW, therefore enjoying themselves.

Different Strokes....Different Folks....

Wilbur and Orville had to eat too.

RCCC