sierramike

A typical newbie dumb question but here goes: I recently picked up my P-51 Mustang PTS and my intention getting it in the winter months is practice with the cockpit simulater all winter. First off I now underatand why there is a lot of controversy with this as a "first plane" or trainer. Just from practicing on the simulator software I know for damn sure I will crash this plane. Is a park flyer a good place to start? I plan on joining a local club in the spring and taking appropriate lessons out of respect for a great hobby. I just wonder how many folks start out or practice on something electric (or glow) that does not take a lot of room to fly before heading the the field. Thanks and hell I'm just happy to be here...what took me so long?

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

No worries, sierramike. The simulator is more challenging than actually flying. Practicing on the simulator will be good prep for when you finally get to start training.

You won't be able to crash it when you fly with a flight instructor at your club. They'll take off, they'll land, and they'll only give you the controls once the plane is 2 to 3 mistakes high in the air. If you're flying and you start to lose control, they'll take over and correct it before you can put the plane in any serious danger.

You'll be able to learn from day one without any concern over your Mustang PTS. Throwing around an electric parkflyer until then will only teach you bad habits and cost you extra money you could be saving for another advanced glow plane.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

Well I'll go with the 2nd paragraph but thats it...!The simulator is more challenging than actually flying?...who the heck told you that?!?!?...Throwing around an electric parkflyer until then will only teach you bad habits and cost you extra money you could be saving for another advanced glow plane...ANY air time is better than sim time electric or otherwise...
Mike I started or restarted the hobby with a GWS pico stick at the local school yard..trust me any air time is practice and although big ed usually gives good advice..I completely disagree with him on this one....Rog

blueprint012

Get an instructor and use the Buddy Box.

That would be the best solution.

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

Sorry, flyinrog, I'm simply basing my comments on my personal experiences.

I bought a Hobbyzone Aerobird Challenger before I was exposed to "real" R/C aircraft at my local club. I went out and tried to learn how to fly by myself with my electric aircraft at the local soccer fields. The results were rather disappointing, although I'm sure my local Hobbytown appreciated all of the extra wings, tail assemblies, and propellers I had to keep buying as I bashed my Challenger into the ground again and again.

Somebody told me about a flying club not too far from my home after hearing that I was trying to learn to fly, and I was given the chance to fly a club trainer for a few minutes with the help of an instructor. I was amazed to watch the plane actually go where I tried to point it. I was hooked, so I took the club members' advice and went out and bought myself a glow trainer.

I picked the Nexstar in no small part so I could get a plane with the sim included in the box. My Real Flight G2 Nexstar edition simulator was a good practice tool, but I had a hell of a time with it at first. The rainbow canyon flying field, the only one included, had a house and fence and trees just off the runway and I crashed a lot while landing. I have a 19" monitor, but I found my plane would shrink away into a speck very quickly on my screen. I also found that the sim didn't model slow flight all that accurately, and the Nexstar turned into a brick and dropped rapidly if the throttle were cut below 1/2 on my G2 Nexstar sim.

When I went to training night, the runway was free of immediate obstacles. The Nexstar was big and easy to see in the sky, even if it was out a bit from the flight line. The Nexstar had a much more gentle glide path in real life and flew very well even at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle after it was up a ways.

Based on my experiences, I found electric parkflyers easier to manage after I completed my glow training, and my actual Nexstar was much easier to fly that the one on my included simulator.

Hopefully that explains my comments a bit and you still have a little faith in my advice and antecdotes. I appreciate the kind words in any event.

petty1234

hi i'm looking 4 a flight simulator Ijust bought my storm launcher

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

I was not surprised to find this elsewhere here in the beginners' forum. deadheadflyer's maiden flight went a lot like mine did with my Aerobird Challenger a couple of years ago. The instructions said I needed an area the size of a ball diamond to fly it, so I went to a local ball diamond. About 4 seconds after I hand-launched the plane, it was stuck up in the top of a tree just north of the line between 3rd base and home plate.

It blew out of the tree later that day, so I had plenty of extra opportunities to wreck it again.

I had a very negative experience trying to fly electric park flyers, and I am not alone.

pcsketch

Park flying and 'club field flying are totally different. I fly both. What you learn park flying teaches you ZERO about flying a 'glow' powered 5 pound 60+ mph club field flyer. My opinon is park flying is fun and a great way to spend $$$ buying another, and another, and another electric park flyer. I even take a park flyer to the club 'glow' field when it is too windy/rainy for the 'glow' flying.

I have a friend that has a new park flyer every month-week-sometimes day. and that is the best thing about parkflyers. I spend less in a year flying at the 'glow club' and enjoy it more, but I do have a new parkflyer - another pico stick.

opjose

The "Cockpit Master" included with the PTS should be relabled "Cockpit disaster".

It ranks up there as one of the WORST sims that exist.

Check out how the plane rolls... as if the wheels were mounted on a bowling ball, that the plane revolves around... ugh.

As previously stated... join a club and get an instructor and buddy box... ( the clubs usually provide the training ).

There is a reason this is so often and consistently told to the neophyte by the more experienced.

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Don't know why this thread was dredged up from February, but here's my 2¢ on the issue. I agree with Rog. Any flight time is better than sim time. I have done enough of both to see that there are many things even a good sim just won't teach you. A sim is primarily good for teaching orientation and timing. That said, don't fly the PTS alone until you have gotten enough instruction to be capable of doing so safely.

Secondly, in my opinion, anyone who unequivocally claims that parkflyers are totally different than glow planes or will teach you bad habits is not sufficiently experienced with parkflyers to make such blanket statements. A 50mph, 4 channel, 2lb, 200 watt plane meets most official parkflyer definitions, and can perform equivalently to an average .25 glow ship. I have several "parkflyers" that can outperform the average .40 size plane in most if not all areas and require more skill to fly. The performance capability of parkflyers has evolved over the past few years, but many peoples opinions have not. Besides, how is learning to fly on the wing instead of raw thrust, and learning to use a rudder a bad thing?

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

Well, when I said it, I was thinking particularly of the Hobbyzone stick-and-pod planes. If you redefine "parkflyer" to mean a high performance brushless electric, that is a horse of a different color. I still contend that buying and crashing a Hobbyzone Firebird Freedom is going to provide very little help when you decide to try a 4-channel glow trainer down the road.

metabolicmaggot

What about a PZ Typhoon? I was thinking of getting one of these to fiddle around with before actually getting a glow plane. The step between a SuperCub and a glow trainer.

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

I don't think I'm "redefining" anything. I don't disagree with your firebird freedom example, the earlier Hobbyzone releases did tend to be underachievers, fwiw. I am merely pointing out that parkflyers are no longer necessarily slow, overpowered, and underweight.[8D]. In fact, there are many sub $200 RTF packages out there now that make excellent trainers, and several which rival the average glow ARF in performance.

When I re entered the hobby several years ago(I never really learned to fly the first time), I did it with a GWS Pico Cub. That was followed by a GWS Tiger Moth, then an aileron/elevator/throttle control electric funflyer called a wasp. This machine flew on the same motor and battery as the Tiger Moth, but reached around 40mph and could climb at about 70° from a handlaunch. After learning to fly ailerons on that, the LT-25 Kadet I built to transition into glow planes seemed rather slow and boring, generally unchallenging to fly. Know why? Because I had sharpened my reflexes on the parkflyers first.

bruce88123

I don't know what you're drinking but can you send me a case of it? Good stuff?

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Bruce,

What is that supposed to mean? I am not drinking anything now, nor was I at the time of the quoted post. I was responding to the claim that parkflyers are nothing like "real" glow planes. It was stated that parkflyers flew nothing like glow trainers and would teach bad habits. I was merely trying to refute that point. I even conceded that the hobbyzone stick and pod planes may fit that claim, and that I was referring to parkflyers beyond that narrow scope. I do not see what in my post was worthy of ridicule.

If anyone doesn't believe that well designed parkflyers (I am using the AMA definition of a parkflyer) are capable of performing similarly to glow planes, go take a look over in the electric forums here, on wattflyer, and e-zone. Or, for the RTF crowd, go take a look at your local Hobbytown. They probably have a stryker RTF with a brushless setup in stock. I saw one fly for the first time this weekend and was amazed that it could do--okay, granted, that one is over $200 and barely fits the parkflyer definition, but still...

Further, I didn't advocate the OP go out and try flying his trainer alone or any other such thing; I just used my personal experience to illustrate my point that flying parkflyers DOES contribute to skill-building, that lessons learned from flying a small electric can usually translate to flying larger ships.

I suppose I am wasting my keystrokes. The fact that I still build from kits, voluntarily fly 1/2A planes with no throttle control, and have no interest in 1/4 scale gassers is probably enough to make my opinion irrelevant to the mainstream anyway.

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Well, since no one else bit...

Actually, I think you will have an easier time if you fly the glow trainer before the Typhoon. My cousin has the Typhoon--it is very responsive, and has no self-correcting tendencies. It is not particularly difficult to fly, but you must fly it all the time--if you let go of the sticks, it will continue in the last commanded direction, not level out.

If you are very comfortable with the Super Cub in all orientations, can take off, land, can hold the Cub inverted for a bit, can get out of trouble, and fly in a level, straight line, you can probably handle the Typhoon, with one caveat: start off by using the lowest control throw settings recommended in the manual. Use the low rates on the transmitter, and if available, dial in expo until you gain familiarity with the plane.

Maybe I'll get flamed for this, too...

metabolicmaggot

Thanks for the advise!

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

If he can do that, he's a truly amazing pilot. The Hobbyzone Super Cub is a 3-channel plane with an undercambered foam airfoil. If it gets inverted, it's going down. Other than that, I actually agree with BuzzBomber's advise. The Typhoon shouldn't be beyond metabolicmaggot's flying skills if he wants to give flying one a shot. One of the Parkzone warbirds wouldn't be a bad second plane, either, after mastering the Super Cub.

As for some of the parkflyers that BuzzBomber mentioned, I own a GWS Pico Tiger Moth and a GWS Slow Stick for indoor flight. I think indoor flying with small electrics is a great way for glow pilots to develop better "left stick" habits and work more with throttle management and using the rudder. Controlling an aircraft with 4 walls and a ceiling around you makes flying outdoors seem like simple by comparison.

Eventually though, a pilot is going to need to take the plunge and get their first glow plane (if they're ever going to fly glow). Flying a typical glow trainer doesn't require tremendous flying skill. A lot of the lessons learned are on airplane maintenence, engine starting and tuning, safety, and the like. If an electric parkflier pilot flies a dozen different planes and can do harriers and waterfalls like a pro with his ParkFlyers R/C Edge 540, he's still going to need to know that using blue lock-tite on his muffler screws is a good idea whether his first glow plane is a Tiger Trainer .40 or a September Fury with retracts.

Most of the disputed opinions in this thread seem to revolve around the concept of "park flyer." I don't think of GWS planes when I hear this term, because GWS kits require building and hobby quality electronics to complete them. By the accepted definition, they most certainly are park flyers, because they can be flown in a park.

When most brand-new pilots use the term "park flyer" however, they tend to mean "airplane in a box." They are looking for an inexpensive, simple to operate airplane that they can snap together and toss in the air. These pilots wouldn't purchase a Nexstar or Mustang PTS RTF package that doesn't require assembly, but then go out and buy an electric kit to assemble and also shop for ESCs, servos, and receivers seperately. They don't know how to fly yet, so they don't want to have to learn to build and then have their build project destroyed the first time they try to fly it.

When it comes to electric "airplanes in a box" for $200 or less, the market is not blessed with very many really good aircraft. The ones that are good usually aren't trainers, they're warbirds or acrobatic planes for the most part. I'd go so far as to say you can make a very short list of good, first trainer airplanes-in-a-box in the sub $200 electric category:

-Hobbyzone Super Cub
-ParkFlyers R/C BeginAir
-Multiplex Easy Star
-Hobbico Flyzone Ventura
-Hobbico Flyzone Mini Ventura
-Hobbico Flyzone Sky Pilot
-Hobbico Flyzone Cessna
-Parkzone Slo-V

My original point was, keeping these planes in mind, learning to fly one of these proficiently really wouldn't help you a whole heck of a lot when you're ready to go buddy-box your Mustang PTS at the local club. That was the question the original poster asked: "I recently picked up my P-51 Mustang PTS and my intention getting it in the winter months is practice with the cockpit simulater all winter. First off I now underatand why there is a lot of controversy with this as a "first plane" or trainer. Just from practicing on the simulator software I know for damn sure I will crash this plane. Is a park flyer a good place to start? I plan on joining a local club in the spring and taking appropriate lessons out of respect for a great hobby. I just wonder how many folks start out or practice on something electric (or glow) that does not take a lot of room to fly before heading the the field."

My response was that he'd get about as much benefit learning control orientation on the simulator as he would throwing a Firebird Scout around at the local ball diamond. He had already bought his Mustang PTS and he was going to join the local AMA club, and in this context I stand by my original answer.

metabolicmaggot

WOW that ParkFlyers R/C Edge 540 looks great and is even cheaper than the typhoon. maybe I'll get that instead of the typhoon 2.

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

They have a really nice looking Extra 300 also. You might also check out the Cox Models Christian Eagle biplane that comes with a brushless power system (outrunner, ESC, and LiPo battery all included) for $129.99. Just add radio and you've got a terrific aerobatic sport flyer.

There are a lot of nice electric aerobatic planes out there. I'm hoping that new T28 Trojan RTF from Parkzone is the brushless electric trainer that the whole world seems to want. That could be a very cool plane when it comes out.

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

@bigedmustafa--I think we're pretty much in agreement.[8D] I wasn't trying to beat up on you earlier--it's just that your illustrated concept of what constitutes a parkflyer is much narrower than what I'm accustomed to, hence the differing opinion regarding capabiltes of said class of aircraft. Actually, it's kind of refreshing that someone else here sees the GWS lineup as "kits" rather than ARFs, as an aside. Most people think of anything foam and assume it's ARF, but anyone who's ever worked with one of the old Sureflite kits knows that ain't necessarily so.

Back to the OP, regarding the question "I just wonder how many folks start out or practice on something electric (or glow) that does not take a lot of room to fly before heading the the field.", I just wanted to point out that I am one of those people, and I think that starting out that way has made me a better pilot. As stated, after a false start in the hobby at a young age, I came back by buying a GWS Cub and teaching myself to fly it. I didn't mention that I did it at night. in a deserted parking lot. in winter. Yes, I know I'm not the typical case. Just shows that there is room for individualism in the hobby, as long as common sense is followed.

Oh, and about flying an undercambered airfoil inverted......you're just not trying hard enough, Ed! It's actually a really fun challenge to try flying these types of planes inverted. They don't like it, that's for sure, but the key is to start out at "3 mistake" height to allow room to roll out, and set up the controls so that there is plenty of "down" elevator available. When I had a Slow Stick, I was able(barely) to do inverted figure-8s with it. Problem was, it required nrealy full throttle and almost all down elevator to maintain height. It's a good exercise in not overcontrolling because as soon as you do, it will roll upright......but I am venturing way off track here.

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

Hehe, sounds good! I guess this is one time where we'll have to agree to agree.

saucerguy

Well, I had a firebird early on, it's an odd flyer and had strange tendacies that most other park flyers don't have, so is not my personal reccomendation for something to train on, that's just my opinion, not trying to raise a debate. I don't see any reason to not have more then one type of plane, sometimes depending upon your mood, other times for the weather conditions.

Sim's are also another odd area, sure they teach you the basics, but there is alot to be said about being able to rely upon perifial vision. So, they are easier on one level, ie. you get perfect planes, perfect weather conditions, perfect gravity, etc. yet harder on another level since you are basically looking through binoculers and when the plane gets out of your line of site, it becomes a very tiny spec quite quickly, so something is lost in the computer graphics translation area. The only sim time I really have is on a few demo's and FMS and I'm only using keyboard controls, so don't get as much out of them as you guys with the expensive ones with the TX plug in, and in fact, I'd like it if someday, someone would come up with a keyboard type of radio since I've long since ommitted using a joystick for computer games and playing console games drive me nuts for that reason.

metabolicmaggot

I agree, I had the origional Firebird, and it never wanted to fly right. I only ever got one godd flight on it but boy was it perfect for such a crappy plane.

stockdaddy

Amen brother!