EscapeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I asked Bax if Hobbico would consider re-releasing the Toprare as an answer to H9's Phoenix 7. His response was interresting.

Check it out:

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10116260/anchors_10124503/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#10124503[/link]

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Brian,

I guess if the reference for sales is the Ultra Sport or the Super Sportsters, the Tipo was dead in the water before being designed... Hobbico has probably made 100's of thousands with those two series. The Tipo (or any other classic pattern design for that matter), well, there have always been a select few to buy them. I think the Tipo probably sold better than most other American classics, Bridi designs being the exception.

David.

flywilly

My Feedback: (121)

I agree with David, that the Tipo may have been the most popular American pattern ship. I suspect the majority were sold before Great Planes got the kit rights. Just for reference: OS made, at most, 9,000 Hanno Specials (all versions) over a 4 year period (approximately). The annual sales (in the USA alone) of '40' sized OS engines at that time was about 40,000 engines. Pattern sales have always been pretty 'small potatoes'.

EscapeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I'm just glad David was kind enough to provide everyone what we need to own a Tipo!

Thanks dude.

Brian

smacfe

No radio controlled model in the history of model airplanes has sold anywhere even close to 100,000, although I understand that the Park Zone T-28 is getting up there. Nobody ever got rich off of an r/c kit.

Scott

dhal22

edited do to lack of relevance.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

You'd be wrong, the Marks Models Wander sailplane has sold over 160,000, it is a kit though.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

I was thinking more along the lines of $ rather than models. Assuming ~$200/kit that means 500 kits/$100K.

I don't know how many ultra sport kits or super sportsters have sold but I would guess in the thousands. G.P. might have sold a few hundred Tipo's I'd venture.

David.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

My Tiporare is a Great Planes kit that I bought in 1991, although years before that I had the opportunity to visit WK Hobbies in Centerville, OH many times while Bill Keller was making the original kits.

JeffH

My Feedback: (43)

If Hobbico decided to ARF anything, I would think it would be the Kaos .60 again. The problem is that it does not 3d, and it cannot be considered ballistic fast. Nobody really cares about a plane unless it does one of those two things, this small group not included of course.

EscapeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I am sad to have to agree with you...

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Visiting WK Hobbies must have been interesting. I bought my GP kit in 1982 which was when GP first released it. Those first kits came with no plans and the fuses were a fair bit heavier than the later ones.

David.

AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken

My Feedback: (180)

I can account for 2 of those...

rcguy!

My Feedback: (69)

Been there, done that a few times myself. Bill was a Type A for sure. I liked him and miss him.

Dave Rigotti

8178

My Feedback: (17)

It was an interesting place to hang out! Bill was a pretty dynamic guy and always had something new going on in the shop. Glass props, kits, you name it!! Nothing better than the whiff of epoxy resin when you walked into the hobby shop. His manufacturing area was in the back of the hobby shop.

rcguy!

My Feedback: (69)

Yes indeed! "Dynamic" is a good word to use!

Dave Rigotti

Tommygun

My Feedback: (2)

Since you bring up the subject of 3D, I am curious how it got such a large following that managed to eclipse pattern flying. It's unscale, lacks grace, isn't entertaining to watch, and generally is not representative of fixed-wing aircraft. It doesn't even look fun to fly, just a bunch of hovering and fluttering around. Dumb. I'd get a helicopter instead. Why would anyone have given up or forgone "classic" style pattern flying for 3D? There must be something I'm missing....

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,
I guess it is some combination of things. Younger generations has ben flying indoors and the planes are very light and can do 3D (and even 4D now - fly backwards, hoover nose down etc). I suppose this has slipped over to outdoor flying and one good side effectis that models are very light today (required for 3D flying) and usually fly good also in ordinary non 3D flying. Another factor is probably sinceARF's took over very few "built" their planes from kits or from scratch these days (that is usually required to get a classic pattern plane flying). Another positive thing that 3D flying (and other type of flying) has given us iselectric motorsthat is extremely powerful and reliable -it is a pure joy to fly a plane with suitable electric motor today. Many classic pattern planes is difficult to convert to electric. But there is no more graceful to watch then a classic pattern plane doing the manuvers in a precise, smooth and at rather fast speed (compared to newer slower flying style) in my opinion. Pattern flying took a new path sometime in the past and then got rather expensive if you wanted to have models that the top flyers was flying, and today a modern F3A machine can be very expensive if you buy a composite plane with ready built wing etc, and with electric power the inital cost can be sky high with motors, batteries, chargers etc. But classic pattern will probablyremainvery small part offlying in futurebut as long as the classic pattern planes are built andflown there is a chance new people will discover all the great airplanes from the past and hopefully they build and fly them also. But I'm little worried that when the generations that flew the classic pattern planes back in 1960th-1970th-1980th and beginning of 1990th are to old to fly or do not live anymore classic pattern flying will start to be rather rare (but I hope I'm wrong).

By the way, I guess I have to take good care of my Great Planes Tiporare then.

/Bo

R_G

My Feedback: (1)

I completely agree with this! I don't get the 3D thing either! Seeing an airplane hanging from the prop a foot off the ground is starting to get old. You can't hardly pick up a magazine or watch a video without this 3D nonsense being front and center. Makes no sense to me!

I'm sure it takes a certain amount of skill to do it, but as you said it definitely lacks grace and style!

EscapeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I agree for the most part. It seems that I still enjoy watching Bill Hempel, Chip Hyde, and Mike McConnville incorporate these manevers into the TOC Pattern routine. This was tastefully done and seemed to have a reason for it's use.

I wonder if, considering the end of TOC, the reasoning of 3D flyng was lost. People are lost in their use of it and aren't thinking in terms of what they are doing. It is supposed to be about the lines, and the grace of flying.

Maybe I'm just babbling...

Brian

R_G

My Feedback: (1)

Not babbling! I think you're right! 3D sure doesn't seem to be about "the lines, and the grace of flying"!

pimmnz

Funny, I thought ALL models fly '3D'. Can't think of any that fly either 2D or 4D. So far as I am aware all my models got three dimensions, none are infinitely thin (2D) and none cast a 3D shadow...
Am I missing some part of model aviation? As for those floppy all about the sky jockeys, it's only for those with a lack of eyesight and co-ordination...
Evan, WB #12.

EscapeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

It seems most of our hopes lie in Eureka aircraft, balsa suppliers, kit cutters, and Don, AKA Frequent Flyer. This is okay with me, providing these people do not get burned out helping everyone to the degree they do.

I also realize that Mike McConville and his team put a lot of effort behind the Phoenix offering by Horizon. My hat is off to you folks.

The answer Bax gave to me is understandable now that I have more history on the subject. It is frustrating, but classic pattern devotees are industrious, and we will find a way to bring back the craftsmanship and inginuity ourselves when necessary. I believe the ressurection of the Tipo from Great Planes would be important, but when they refuse, we don't need them anyhow.

One thing for sure, we have the best looking, best flying, and best running equipment out there, regardless of the brand- because we share knowledge. It is wonderful that this knowledge did not have to be lost to the ages.

I am proud to include myself into this group of people, and hope I can contribute half as much, as has been offered me here, to someone in the future.

Thanks guys.

Tommygun

My Feedback: (2)

It's just more terminology designed to be annoying/make something seem more important than it really is. "3D! Yeah, that's what I fly, it's awesome!" Kinda like how "glow" is now "nitro." More fallout from the MTV mindset. And flying backwards doesn't really constitute 4D; I'm sure you'll see them add something in the next couple of years then call it...you guessed it, "5D." Oh, and to keep this relevent to the thread, I love my Tipo so much I'm afraid to fly it! I'd love to see a GP ARF re-release.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Brian,

thanks for your PM. I haven't ignored it, I'm just taking a little time to think about it. I'll get back to you but your questions may be better directed, in general, to the aerodynamics forum. I'm just a simple applied physicist. What you need is an aeronautical engineer.

Your comments above caught my eye. For a while, several years actually, on and off I looked into the possibility of resurrecting the Tipo. After much research and inquiry I lost a little hope with the reproduction of a glass fuse as it seemed to be something that would only happen if someone with the skills, talent and desire to do glass work arrived on the scene. As a result of that, I turned my attention to the idea of producing one with a wood fuse. I was very surprised when I discovered that an article including plans for the wood built Tipo existed. An article in Model Builder was the source and the article was of course written by Dick Hanson, the designer (or perhaps I should say re-designer) of the Tipo. At the time, my perception was that the CPF here was in general unaware of such plans and I became quite thrilled with the idea of sharing them with all and also with rendering different scales of the Tipo. A thread was started and the concept was successful in my view - you may be familiar with that 3 year old thread or so.

After that, came Don from Eureka who picked up on the thread and went ahead and made short kits of the wood Tipo's with cores (wing and stab) in the 5 different scales (10, 20, 40, 60 and 120). He went to task and produced the kits based on a CAD version of the plans he made. More recently, came along someone else, Don who started a thread on mold making and as we know the rest is history. In the near future, with the kind loan of original fuses from other forum members, we may be back to where GP was in 1982 with the Tipo kits. And..., I might add, with the GP Illusion kits too!

While the availability and popularity of the Tipo would be far less in the absence of the GP kits, they weren't necessarily exceptional kits in my opinion (based on having built two of them). Certainly by today's standards, with laser cutting, contest balsa and such, those kits would be considered of "vintage" quality. As we know, the two main components of any good glass/foam kit is the fuse and the cores. With those two elements, the rest comes down to taking the model to task and building it. I am quite certain that both today's glass fuses and the cores that we cut presently are a notch above those kits - particularly the very early releases of those kits which had somewhat heavy glass work and questionable cores.

In some respects we can be hopeful for the continuity of classic pattern into the future given the rare but exceptional quality and availability of the source components to produce beautiful pattern ships... including the Tipo.

As to your last couple of comments, I couldn't agree more!

David.