Side Pocket Article
 

Hey Guys!

I've got a set of plans for a Side Pocket, a .40-size Compensator look alike. What I need is the construction article for it. Can somebody post a pdf?? It was published in RCM 10/83. Thanks for the help Guys!!

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Here you go FB.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

That looks like a fun one, and I just happen to have a .40 with no home

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

It’s a good flying 40 size pattern plane.

Built one back in the 80’s as a daily practice plane for use at a tight local field.

I’d really like to get my hands on plans of John Millers 60 size version though.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Thanks Paul for the PDF! A .60-size Side Pocket? I didn't know he did a larger version. I'll have to look around.

Now, does anybody have a Wing Mfg "Sport Canopy" that they would like to sell? I don't think that Wing Mfg is selling stuff anymore. [:@][:o]

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

I just did a quick search and did not find anything on a 60 size, hope it's not another one lost. FB is this build something you might be doing soon?

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

It wasn’t called a Side Pocket though, but there was a 60 size.

I’ve been looking and looking, he never published the plans but someone has to have a copy.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

I just looked at the RCM site and did a search by the designer of the Side Pocket - no joy. Do you know if the design was published and what time frame and most importantly, what's the name of the model?

RFJ - do you have any insight on this? Designer was John P. Miller Jr.

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Here is some info from Will.
We had some e-mails on the subject but plans were not found.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Interesting stuff Paul. I wonder if he still lives in MA.?

John - I'm thinking that I might. I've got a lot of choices though (kits or scratch).

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Rick I've been looking since 07 for info and the plans.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

So it sounds like you have exhausted all resources. I'll certainly keep my ears open.

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

John Miller was a memeber of the club I belonged to in Mass. I remember both his Hip Pocket and his Side Pocket well. If I remember right, he move from Mass. a long time ago due to work. I thought his Side Pocket was published but maybe not.


Paul

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Just about, could always just start a thread and see.

You never know, but it's still worth pursuing it.

Hey, I never thought I'd find one of these, dubbed "the Atlanta 40"

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Paul,

Did the Hip Pocket look anything like the Side Pocket? If it did, would enlarging the Side pocket plans fit the bill?

Nice Quatro! Didn't you get that recently on RCG? I've got another Atlanta 40 look alike - Omega 40. There might be a pic buried in the forum somewhere.

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Rick, Paul,

I'm glad the Side Pocket design has resurrected. Rick, Paul and I exchanged several emails and PM's on the subject a couple of years ago. I liked the transitioning airfoil and simple design of the model along with the nicely drawn plans. All I had to go on was the plan from the article though and it wasn't a reliable source to re-trace and build from.

Here is my crude attempt at scaling it to a 60 size. I evidently wanted to have a wing of a certain number of squares but I can't recall my thinking. I made some notes in the PDF indicating that the wing would be clipped short of my plan using 30-1/4" panels with 1-3/4" tips for a total wing span of 64". Making the wing plan larger (71-1/2" total span) and building it clipped would result in a wider chord wing with overall less taper but I was just playing around with the idea. Fuse length would be 58-2/3" with a wing saddle which of course would have to be modified. I'm not sure why I didn't do a simple scale up - probably also wanted a longer tail moment on the 60 but without a 6' wing... (40 size is ~47" length and 57" span).

This design merits being preserved in a CAD drawing. If I had a good scanned source, I'd be willing to do a "verbatim" CAD job. Probably break out any additional parts needed such as fuse sides, tops, vertical, etc. What I find rather time consuming is the laser layout transfer of parts from plans to cut sheet. Maybe if I supply the CAD plans, someone else could do the laser layout... :D Any takers?

First attachment is the article (1.4 MB) followed by the raw 60 size fuse and wing plan, respectively (2 MB each).

Bring it on Rick! I look forward to seeing more of this.

David.

P.S. Just realized the article was posted earlier by Paul in post #2.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Upon looking at the 60 size scaling job again, I see that I did a uniform scaling so the wing plan and fuse saddle match with a 15" wing root chord. But the wing was rather long at a 58-2/3" fuse scaling. It turned out to be 71.4" long which struck me as a little too large with a 15" root chord. I must have thought of preserving an aspect ratio similar to the Tipo with a 58" fuse and a 65" wing. Maybe a clipped wing is a bad idea though or if it is clipped, it could be clipped to 68" rather than 64". The 64" span wing would have ~816 squares - it's a wide wing for its time...

What do you guys think?

Man, those 40 size Japanese models look nice! A fellow modeler from the forum was kind enough to sell me a Yoshioka Dash-5 45 kit. Plug-in wings and an inverted RE YS 45 setup - nice... Problem is, the kit is too precious to build! [:-]

David.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

i like it... i like the 70-80s sport and pattern planes...

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Hey David,
use the original kit as a template and build a copy (or two ;)), then you still have the original. The canopy and belly pan are pretty easy and you can make a glass canopy or all wood if you don't need to 'see' the pilot.
As for scaling up the Side Pocket to a 60 sized (Hip Pocket size): scale up the fuselage to the size you want the adjust the wing/stab size by reducing span and/or tip chord. John drew up the Side Pocket plans for publication, but generally just used the infamous 'working drawings'. John's prototype Hip Pocket was 'splattered' [:@] at the '83 nats at Westover AFB due to radio interference which, unfortunately plagued a number of contestants (with similar results) - those 6' deep concrete runways are VERY unforgiving.
By the way, the club John belonged to is the 495th R/C club (or something similar - I should remember, I belonged many years ago) and maybe somebody from the club knows where John is. Of course there's always Google and Facebook - and John Miller is such an unusual name :D.
Thanks, Paul, for posting my original statement - saves me typing time!
-Will

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Will,

thanks for the Hip Pocket suggestions. However, without a decent copy of them, I can't get much traction. Otherwise, I basically did what you suggested. Just clipped the wing and would produce a stab of corresponding scale.

As for the Dash-5 (nice bird!), if motivation strikes, I'll make a copy of the kit but in the end, the beauty of the Japanese kits is all that pre-sanded work done for you. Everything comes together nicely without the extra carving and sanding needed with a "scratch copy". The truth is, I can't see myself building more than one of each of these Japanese designs that come across my table. But I supppose the kits can serve as templates for a number of builders... In the end, maybe no Japanese cut wood will ever see a glue joint.

Do you recall what engine Miller powered his Hip Pocket with? From the article, it seems like he was fond of advocating plain bearing engines such as the K&B 40 for the SP.

David.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

David -

I think that you've got some good thoughts there, however there's far too much speculaton and change to the original design. It just might make a good flyer a dog. While I like the idea of a larger Side Pocket, at this stage of the game with so many designs out there to build, I'd stick to something that's proven. If I had more frre time, I'd think about what you're saying. TO me, the Side Pocket looks somewhat like a Compensator, so if I wanted a larger Side Pocket, I'd probably build a Compensator and paint it to look like a Side Pocket.

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Rick,

I hear you. Just the old tinkering spirit kicking in.

Let's keep the thread to the Side Pocket 40 subject matter. I take it plans are still available from RCM?

David.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Yes they are. I don't remember when or where I got the the plans, guess I'm getting CRS! Anyway, there's a chap on the auction site pulling articles out of magazines and selling them. He had the SP article which reminded me that I had the plans. The article sold today for $11.51!! Amazing!

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

FWIW here's my version of the 60 and 20 resized Side pockets. I liked the plane so much I re-sized it up and down.

Anyway here's the plans. First 4 files are the 60 size and the last three are the 20 size with a full wing plan

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Rogue,

Thanks for posting the PDFs! When you say you liked the plane so much, did you build one?

Paul - What did the Hip Pocket look like? Was it just a larger SP?

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Rick, I never saw the 60 size “Hip Pocket”, but knowing how well his 40 Side Pocket flew was the reason for looking into a set of plans of his 60 size bird.

Seeing some pic’s of the plane or plans/drawings would be the first step, not ever seeing the plane firsthand deters me from just scaling up the design.

Like you said,

“there's far too much speculaton and change to the original design. It just might make a good flyer a dog. While I like the idea of a larger Side Pocket, at this stage of the game with so many designs out there to build, I'd stick to something that's proven. If I had more frre time, I'd think about what you're saying. TO me, the Side Pocket looks somewhat like a Compensator, so if I wanted a larger Side Pocket, I'd probably build a Compensator and paint it to look like a Side Pocket.”

Yes recently from a friend on RCG, When we met he brought another plane with him for my consideration a NIB 60 size MK Blue Angel that I just couldn’t turn down for 250.:D

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

FB,

Back in 2008 when I decided to return to the hobby I was of course plane poor. I started collecting RCM mags and ran across the Side Pocket which to me is very similar to Jim Kimbros Deception, one of my favorites. At that time my plan was to scratch build a 60 sized Side Pocket but that got put on the back burner as I started to collectClassic Pattern planes.

Here's my latest score an $80 dollar unstarted Great Planes/Joe Bridi Deception kit with fiber glassed canopy. I found it on craigslist of all places.

I actually bought out the guy and got Carl Goldberg Super Chipmonk kit, a 40 sized Great Planes J-3 Cup framed up, an already built 40 sized Lucky Stick ready to fly,an already built Carl Goldberg Protege already built ready to fly, an already built plane he called an Eagel 20, two radios, one for the Lucky Stick and one for the Protege, an OSMax 61FX engine, a NIB Fox 45bb with nosecone 10 rolls of monokote a gallon on 10% nitro. All his build tools. Two brand new 12volt 7amp hour hobby batteries. Tote with starter.Scored all for $450.

Too top it all off I also wonour clubs raffle at the AMA convention for a Parkzone Spitfire PNP and picked up another unstarted Super Chipmonk for $80, had a Very good weekend.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Bryan,

Thanks for posting good quality versions of the plans. The scaling you came up with for the 60 makes more sense - I was looking for a long fuse moment but the overall size is just too big. Compared to the Deception, the SP has a fairly short fuse.

Speaking of Deceptions, I'd be interested in reading that FM article; I didn't know it existed. If possible.

TIA, David

PS Nice score!

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Bryan,

Maybe you could let us now the year and month of the FM issue which covered the deception. I was thinking about order some back issues from them and I could add that one to the list if it is available.

Thanks,

Teo

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

September 1983?

Just zooming in to the photo - date is hard to make out.

David

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Very close David - September 1980.

Ray

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

If ever there was a RC publishing god - you'd be it Ray!

Much obliged!

It seems fitting that FM would have published in 1980, after all the original Deception article was published in 1978 if memory serves (or was it '77...)

Now I have something to read over my late dinner...:D

David

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Ray, Thanks for posting the article.;)

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Rogue,

I hope you were wearing a mask when you picked up that stuff! You stole it!! Nice haul though!

FB

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Hey David,
I'm pretty sure the Hip Pocket was powered with a piped OS 61FSR.
As for copying the Japanese kits - yeah, you are quite right about all the custom shaped pieces and that is one of the reasons they are such a pleasure to build! I am in the process of kitting the MK Skystar 90 from scratch. I cut foam wings and stabs as well as the rear top deck, but the rest (fuselage, fin, rudder) is all replicated like the original kit. It seemed like an easy project, the foam parts were done relatively quickly, but there are a lot of those nifty, specialty wood parts to be created. Many of them I re-engineered into several sub parts which are glued together and shaped to the final configuration. This has worked well for me, but it is time consuming. Of course, I am building 3 kits at once. I did this same thing years ago with the MK Curare with excellent results, but there were far fewer specialty parts in that kit.
Lastly, I have found that 'shrinking' plans (from 60 to 40 size for example) seems to work better (preserving the original flight characteristics) than enlarging at least if you are just going to the local copy shop.
-Will

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Sorry for the late post, been working long hours the last week.

David I upscale the side pocket about 12% from the original 40 sized to get it around 62 to 64 inches. Worked out ok. As far as having a long tail moment here's that 60 sized SP with a 3 inch stretch on the tail moment and a 1.5 inch stretch at the nose. Is this what you were looking to do? The jpg is 150dpi the pdf was converted from a 400 dpi tif file.

Here's the cover of that Flying Models mag. Really cool that the guy I got the Deception from included it in the deal.

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Freebird,
i originally went to get the Deception and to see what he wanted for the Super Chipmonk. When I inquired about the Chipmonk he just blurted out he'd take 450 for all his stuff. I immediately responded with an offer of $400 then said $450 would be fine.http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...sn/biggrin.gif He mentioned he worked on the Protege for a year and it was also the last item I loaded in my car. He looked like he was upset as I loaded it in so I asked him if he was ok. He said he was fine, but I think he was really proud of the work he did on the Protegehttp://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f.../cry_smile.gif. I sure know that feeling. I did the same thing he did back in 1985 when I sold all my stuff. Won't do that again. I did feel a little like the hamburgeler, but I think that was because i was hungry.http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...sn/biggrin.gif

Bryan

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Bryan,

Are you planning to come to the Classic get-together that Robert is hosting in May? It would be great to see you and your collection there.

It was a tom of fun last year.

Doug

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Will, Bryan, Rick,

thanks for the comments, suggestions and plans. Bryan, regarding the 60 size, that is basically what I was thinking of too. Stretching things out from the rear of F4 and from the front of F3 - makes sense. Thing is, like Rick suggested, messing around with the enlargement is a bit of a shot in the dark without building and testing. I have no reason to doubt that a 58" fuse and a 64" wing make for a good combination but this design is short coupled and the designer, Miller, has strong feelings about that - much like Kimbro has about his design - no messing around with the rudder length for example...

Having said that, Kimbro took plenty of license to fool around with the Deception design and I've seen airfoiled fins in variations like the Double Vision so that's what I plan to do when I get around to putting one together. But I digress.

Rick's re-opening of the Side Pocket subject and Bryan's better quality plans, got me inspired and I finally got some traction on the CAD work. For the time being I'm not messing with it (much...) and just getting the i's dotted and the t's crossed as it were. The fuse plan is fine and straight forward and so far I didn't find any inconsistencies with it although I haven't done a proper cross check of the formers vs the fuse. Where I am running into issues is with the wing ribs not tracking with the planform. Of course, I chose to keep to the planform and adjust the ribs to suit but I'm still working on that part of things.

I like the layout of these plans and the details provided - it makes it an easier job to decompose the plan for laser cutting layout. As soon as I'm done with the wing plan, I'll continue with the layout which so far is just started with some elements of the fuse.

I made some minor modifications to the fuse plan/construction to suit ease of building, lightness and my preferences. These are the changes that come to mind:
[*] Added the cowl/nose section to the fuse top drawing.[*] Added two pieces of anti-warp cross-grain balsa to the rudder.[*] Removed some material from the tank top 1/4" block to better accommodate the fuel tank and provide a recess for some foam padding. The material isn't needed where I removed it.[*] Lightened the fuel tank plate.[*] Lightened the 1/32" fuse side doublers.[*] Changed the F3 former from 1/4" ply to 1/8" ply with a 1/8" F3B ply doubler at the bottom where the wing dowels are retained.[*] the fuel tank plate is supported buy the top of the F3B doubler and remains flush with the bottom or the tank opening in F3.[*] Placed the tank plate lower in draft in order to accommodate a 12 oz Hayes slim tank. This reduced the amount of space for a potential front retract unit but in the event the builder wants to use retracts, they can adjust the draft of the plate and the size of the tank used.[*] Added a 1/4" balsa F1B nose ring and fuse side front former replacing the small pieced of 1/4" tristock called for on the plans. This small section of cross grain balsa makes for a stronger front end coupled with the 1/16" ply nose ring.[*] In view of the current lack of Wing Mfg. Sport canopies, I designed a canopy "backbone" consisting of a 1/16" ply vertical keel which is fully covered with two pieces of 3/32" balsa one on either side. The total 1/4" thickness of this "spine" blends into the 1/4" balsa fuse top dorsal fin section. The spine also keys into a 1/16" temporary ply canopy base with three centerline alignment tabs. White, blue or pink foam is then added to either side and carved/sanded to shape to reproduce the canopy shape. Once the canopy has been shaped, the base can be removed and the canopy glassed for painting. The assembly should be pretty light but I'm considering just using a 1/32" keel as the TE of the canopy can be widened to the 1/4" required with some foam on either side rather than sanding it entirely away.[*] I may also add a couple of small pieces of cross grain 1/16" balsa on the inside of the fuse sides in the cowl area above the 1/2" tristock for stiffness.

Finally, I'm thinking about drawing up a little section of ply to allow a Sullivan 12 oz RST fuel tank to be front mounted and placed behind the F3 former in the wing saddle area. This locates the tank closer to the CG but might require a fuel pump or a pumped engine. I am thinking of a YS45 for my own model but it might be overkill and might substitute an OS 46 FX. Part of the motivation for moving the tank rearward is due to the comments made Miller in the article regarding the model turning out nose heavy in all cases - not surprising with a shorter fuse and heavy/larger engines that we might be inclined to use.

If the fuel tank is mounted in the saddle area with a pumped engine, the Rx would go behind it on the servo tray while the battery might be located on the fuel tank plate, or, if necessary, behind the servos aft of F4.

I might modify F4 (or have both options cut) to provide support for a couple of Nyrod type pushrods for the elevator and rudder.

Here's the progress on the plans with some minor re-organization of parts. Wing plan in progress. For those interested, I hope to have this finished and cut sooner than later, famous last words..., hopefully not!

'nough said,

David.

P.S. Upload of images and the list function are broken at the moment, for a change...

RE: Side Pocket Article
 

Doug thanks for asking.

I do want to go, but I also want to practice the Novice Pattern Manuervers before I make a descision as I'm still trimming out my Kaos 40. Had a setback on my it but I think I found the problem. It was not able to get peak RPM after the last adjustment of down thrust. Turns out a small piece of plastic or something was blocking the passage at the high speedneedle. Must have got in there while I had the engine apart toport the sleeve.

I guess the saying is appropriate - Don't fix it if it aint broke. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...spinnyeyes.gif

Workhas kept me from having thetime to continue the trimming process. Hopefully tomorrow I will get to the field.

Bryan