Register

If this is your first visit, please click the Sign Up now button to begin the process of creating your account so you can begin posting on our forums! The Sign Up process will only take up about a minute of two of your time.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 83

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine, HAAM.

    Patent Applied for

    RC hobbyists are invited to try to build my HAAM concept. You could make £20k or build a big business for that. Click the link bellow for details please:

    http://www.thrilling.me.uk/rwrd.html


    Experts on aerodynamics and hydrodynamics are invited to comment on my HAAM concept as logically as possible especially if it doesn't work please prove it. If it works it will generate a revolution in aviation and energy industry.

    HAAM operates on the ground and in air and water. It is a two parallel operating machine, one of them is a usual machine operates with an external input and the other is hydro-atmospheric, operates in response to the other without input. The total output of both machines should be more than the external input of the usual machine. Full details of HAAM is in the link bellow:

    http://www.thrilling.me.uk/haam.html



  2. #2
    MajorTomski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Posts
    2,343
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    ?
    Spitfire Brotherhood #6
    Kadet LT 40 Brotherhood #98

  3. #3
    Hill202's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Peachtree City, GA
    Posts
    1,351
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    I would not click those links if I were you...
    Grammar: The difference in knowing your sh*t and knowing you\'\'re sh*t.

  4. #4
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    Hey HAAM you might want to look into the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

    If I could beat entropy I would want a lot more than Β£20k
    Matt

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: mr_matt

    Hey HAAM you might want to look into the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

    If I could beat entropy I would want a lot more than £20k
    Thank you to take time to reply.

    The second law of Thermodynamics simply states that perpetual machine is not possible. But HAAM is not a perpepetual machine. A perpetual machine is a single self-sustaining machine without input. HAAM made up of two machines. When it operates it behaves like a balloon, which is lighter than air and has fans to propell it upward. When released, two powers propell it upward, the power of the fans and atmospheric pressure because it is lighter than the air. The total output is higher than the input of the fans. As you see in this case this balloon is not a perpetual machine. HAAM works on the same principle.

    kind Regards

  6. #6
    collector1231's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    A place in a place.
    Posts
    2,205
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k



  7. #7

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k



    HAAM and the Second Law of Thermodynamics





    http://www.thrilling.me.uk/perp.html


  8. #8
    TampaRC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    , FL
    Posts
    113
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    I'm in.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    A better scientific intorduction to Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine. Please click the link bellow:

    www.haam.thrilling.me.uk/



  10. #10
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    You spend page after page saying this does not violate the 2nd law and then you say this in the last paragraph:


    Therefore the system has doubled the output without input cost. This has important implication because HAAM could become a self-sustaining and energy providing system. For example assume both fans in the figure has an output efficiency of 60%. Hydro-atmospheric side of HAAM doubles it to 120%. Use 100% to feed back the system and put the other 20% for any use. Theoretically this is possible.

    "Energy providing system" violates the first law of thermodynamics if this is a closed system you are describing. Why don't you just build one yourself if it is so straightforward. 2 ducted fans and 10 dollars worth of PVC pipe.
    Matt

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: mr_matt

    You spend page after page saying this does not violate the 2nd law and then you say this in the last paragraph:


    Therefore the system has doubled the output without input cost. This has important implication because HAAM could become a self-sustaining and energy providing system. For example assume both fans in the figure has an output efficiency of 60%. Hydro-atmospheric side of HAAM doubles it to 120%. Use 100% to feed back the system and put the other 20% for any use. Theoretically this is possible.

    "Energy providing system" violates the first law of thermodynamics if this is a closed system you are describing. Why don't you just build one yourself if it is so straightforward. 2 ducted fans and 10 dollars worth of PVC pipe.
    Thank you for taking time to reply.

    As you see a fan has two outputs, one is a lower pressure at the front which is not used or not useable. The other one is a higher pressure output at the back, which is used to push the fan forward. The fan works only to generate higher pressure output a the back. The front output doesn't cost any input. If the fan keep both outputs equal,two of themcan be made a self-sustaining and energy providing with the expolitation of the front output. This doesn't violate second law of thermodynamics. Please read it again.

    I have already bought all the components, two EDFs, two spead controllers, radio control, battery and a voltage regulators. I will make the model by myself if no one else did it soon.

    Best Regards

  12. #12
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    ORIGINAL: HAAM

    If the fan keep both outputs equal,Β*two of themΒ*can be made a self-sustaining and energy providing with the expolitation of the front output. This doesn't violate second law of thermodynamics. Please read it again.

    The first statement absolutely violates the law, by definition, a self sustaining machine in a closed system IS the definition of a perpetual motion machine and therefore violates the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
    Matt

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: mr_matt

    ORIGINAL: HAAM

    If the fan keep both outputs equal,two of themcan be made a self-sustaining and energy providing with the expolitation of the front output. This doesn't violate second law of thermodynamics. Please read it again.

    The first statement absolutely violates the law, by definition, a self sustaining machine in a closed system IS the definition of a perpetual motion machine and therefore violates the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
    Thank you for your response.

    If HAAM can become a self sustaining and energy providing system it can not be classified as a perpetual machine. Because a perpetual machine gets only one input but HAAM gets two inputs.

    A perpetual machine doesn't work because the idea is to feed back the output as input, instead of the external input, to keep the machine perpetuating, working none stop. But the output is always less than the input because a major part of output consumed inside the machine. So the output comes out from the machine is a lot less than the input.

    In the case of HAAM, you have two parallel operating machines. One of them is a usual machine, two fans or more, and the other is hydro-atmospheric. Both fans get an external input and provide an output a lot less than the input. An electric or hydraulic machine could have an efficiency of upto 90% but a heat engine has an efficiency of less than 50%. Assume the ducted fans of HAAM are electrical and has and efficiency of 70%.

    A fan generates two outputs, one at the front as a lower atmospheric pressure and one at the back as higher atmospheric pressure. But the fan works only to generate the higher pressure output at the back, it has nothing to do with the lower pressure output at the front. The fan uses all the external input to generate higher pressure output at the back, lower pressure output at the front doesn't cost any external input of the fan.

    Both outputs have a thrust. Front output can have a maximum potential thrust of 14.7 psi or 1 kg/sq centimetre. But back output can have more than that. But assume we keep both outputs equal and assume the fan has an efficiency of 70%. This means the fan generate a higher pressure output of 70% of the input at the back. This also means we have another 70% at the front without input cost. So total efficiency becomes 140%. Feed back 100% as input to run the fan and use the other 40% for any use.


    The front output is not something from nothing. It is atmospheric pressure differentiation between external atmospheric pressure and atmospheric pressure between the blades of the fan. When the fan operates, it throws out or pumps out air between its blades. This causes lower atmospheric pressure between blades. This causes external atmospheric, which is higher, to rush to fill the vaccuum between blades. This is compatible with first and second law of thermodynamics.



  14. #14
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL HAAM
    The fan uses all the external input to generate higher pressure output at the back, lower pressure output at the front doesn't cost any external input of the fan.
    Why do you believe none of the external input (electricity) to a ducted fan motor goes to creating the low pressure in front of the fan?
    Matt

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    4,759
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    That's my question too. Every flying machine ever invented has relied on creating a vacuum in front and high pressure in the back to propel itself through the air. Do you really think you've come up with something new?

    That said, if you want to put together a set a blueprints and contract an RC model builder to make this thing for 20,000 pounds, I'm in. There's no way I'd guarantee it will work because I'm fairly sure it won't, but if you want it built I'll be happy to build it.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  16. #16
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    Who has tho 20k pounds? Is it in escrow? Who decides who collects the 20k pounds and what criteria us used?
    Matt

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: mr_matt


    ORIGINAL HAAM
    The fan uses all the external input to generate higher pressure output at the back, lower pressure output at the front doesn't cost any external input of the fan.
    Why do you believe none of the external input (electricity) to a ducted fan motor goes to creating the low pressure in front of the fan?
    Thank you for your reply.

    Let us take this in an easy and simple way. You can test and study it by yourself. Put one of your hands in an empty water container. Now fill the container with water until your hand covered completely. Now take your hand out of the water. Think deeply about what happened. You used an INPUT to raise your hand. With the use of these INPUT you generated TWO OUTPUTS. One of the OUTPUTS is raising your hand and the other OUTPUT is the flow of water to fill the space your hand left inside water.

    The OUTPUT of the flow of water to fill the space your hand left inside water, has nothing to do with the INPUT you usedto raise your hand. It didn't take any input from you. It didn't cost any input. This is because water is liquid and flows, and every molecules of water is free and independent and has a POTENTIAL ENERGY. If nothing stops it it will fall. When you poured water in the container, every molecules of water fell until the water leveled. But after you took your hand out you left a gap inside water. Nothing left to hold molecules in equilibrium. Each molecule was nearer to the gap fell inside it under pressure from neighbouring molecules.

    There are many other examples like that. For example if you throw something upward it will move upward for a while and then falls to the ground. Now you used input to generate the output of forcing it to go upward. But the output of coming down, didn't take any input from you it came down because it had potential energy, which is the pull of gravity.

    A fan acts on air the same way your hand acted on the water inside container. Every molecules of air is free and independent and has a potential energy. When a gap created inside air all molecules rush to fill the gap. When a fan operates it pumps out air molecules between its blades backward. This creates air gap between fan blades. When the gaps created between the blades, air molecules rush from the front to fill the gaps. In this case the fan used all the input to pump out air molecules between its blades. But the act of air molecules coming back between blades from the front didn't take any input from the fan.



  18. #18

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: jester_s1

    That's my question too. Every flying machine ever invented has relied on creating a vacuum in front and high pressure in the back to propel itself through the air. Do you really think you've come up with something new?

    That said, if you want to put together a set a blueprints and contract an RC model builder to make this thing for 20,000 pounds, I'm in. There's no way I'd guarantee it will work because I'm fairly sure it won't, but if you want it built I'll be happy to build it.
    Thank you for your reply.

    It is the high pressure, which drives a flying machine, not the vaccuum. When you use a straw to drink your milkshake, it is not the vaccuum inside the straw draws the milkshake, it is the external higher pressure forces the milkshake to enter the straw.

    You used an input, the act of sucking, to generate a vacuum, which is an output. But you also caused another output, which is the act of the milkshake to enter the straw. This output didn't take any input from you.

  19. #19
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    Sticking your hand in the water to begin with took energy. Throwing the ball up took energy. Some of this energy is stored as potential energy that is then converted back, when you pull your hand out or when the ball starts falling.

    You can't recover all of that energy (100% efficiency) due to friction.

    It takes more energy to generate the low pressure than you can extract from it. It is that simple. The overall efficiency will be less than 100%.
    Matt

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    LondonLondon, UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    36
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: mr_matt

    Sticking your hand in the water to begin with took energy. Throwing the ball up took energy. Some of this energy is stored as potential energy that is then converted back, when you pull your hand out or when the ball starts falling.

    You can't recover all of that energy (100% efficiency) due to friction.

    It takes more energy to generate the low pressure than you can extract from it. It is that simple. The overall efficiency will be less than 100%.
    Can you read my posts with an open mind at least to understand what I am saying. I didn't say 'stick your hand in water. Read the post again.

    It is a fact by throwing a ball upward you generate two outputs with only one input. The input only forces the ball go upward. When the ball comes down, it doesn't take nay input. It comes down because of its potential energy. This potential energy could be hundreds of times more than the input energy of throwing it upward.

    Assume you throw a ball of 0.25kg upward by 10.00metre over a cliff. After that the ball falls down the cliff by 100 metre. you used an input of 0.25kg x 10 metre x 9.8 gravity = 24.5 Jouls
    The ball goes down by 110 metres.When the ball hits the ground it has an energy of 025kg x 110 metre x 9.8 gravity = 269.5 Jouls.

    This is what I mean. the secondoutput has nothing to do with the input.


  21. #21
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    How did the ball get to the top of the cliff to begin with? That took energy to get them there. Once you are done throwing all the balls with built in potential energy (the ones already on the cliff) what are you going to do.

    Have you tried posting this on a physics forum?
    Matt

  22. #22
    collector1231's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    A place in a place.
    Posts
    2,205
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    One question; Are the links safe to click on?


  23. #23
    mr_matt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Oak Park, CA,
    Posts
    9,065
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k


    ORIGINAL: HAAM
    This potential energy could be hundreds of times more than the input energy of throwing it upward.
    And where does this huge potential energy come from in your machine?

    Its like saying I have a machine in my garage that does work. It moves me from place to place, the only input is my foot pushing on the accelerator pedal.
    Matt

  24. #24

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    691
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    ORIGINAL: mr_matt


    ORIGINAL: HAAM
    This potential energy could be hundreds of times more than the input energy of throwing it upward.
    And where does this huge potential energy come from in your machine?

    Its like saying I have a machine in my garage that does work. It moves me from place to place, the only input is my foot pushing on the accelerator pedal.
    [8D] Mr Matt , I have just given your post 5 stars , and here's why ;

    You have displayed amazing patience in attempting to get HAAM to recognize the absurdity of the notion of the "perpetual motion" machine . The idea of a physical "something for nothing" is what drives most of these thoughts , and it's always the things like frictional losses and such that seem to trip these notions up . You are to be commended for not mocking his failed notion , and thus the 5 stars .

  25. #25
    DrV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA,
    Posts
    345
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Can you build my Hydro-Atmospheric Assisted Machine 4 Β£20k

    It's funny I'm reading this. At work my janitor approached me and told me the next big thing in car engineering is going to be a vehicle that creates its own electricity to drive an electric motor. I almost caught myself starting a discussion with my janitor regarding the second law of thermodynamics and entropy. Finally, I just told him the laws of physics do not allow a creation of such machine. After a pause he told me that its all a government cover up and such car was created in Mexico 20 years ago. Unfortunately the "oil mafia" had it destroyed.

    Funny stuff those laws of physics.


Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:56 PM.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.