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What is it worth to us?
07-21-2009, 12:57 PM
#1
What is it worth to us?
I live in an area where urban development has all but eliminated flying sites for nitro-powered planes. The demise of Mile Square Park in Orange County several years ago to make way for yet another golf course got me to thinking. What would we as R/C’ers be willing to pay to use the plots of land that we need? Before answering do a little research on the web about greens fees at golf courses in your area. (Around here they start at about $80/18 hole public course)
07-21-2009, 01:09 PM
#2
RE: What is it worth to us?
A good analogy, but hardly a fair one.
When I play Golf, I will be spending several hours playing and I have a girl that drives up in a cart with cold drinks and sandwiches. If need be, I can stop along the way and use the rest room. After I'm done, I can stop in the clubhouse and have a few drinks and a bite to eat, use the rest room and go to the Pro Shop and buy supplies.
When I go to the field, I'm lucky to squeeze in a flight or two while I take a drink of luke-warm water from the bottle I brought, pee behind a tree and then I head for home to eat.
When I play Golf, I will be spending several hours playing and I have a girl that drives up in a cart with cold drinks and sandwiches. If need be, I can stop along the way and use the rest room. After I'm done, I can stop in the clubhouse and have a few drinks and a bite to eat, use the rest room and go to the Pro Shop and buy supplies.
When I go to the field, I'm lucky to squeeze in a flight or two while I take a drink of luke-warm water from the bottle I brought, pee behind a tree and then I head for home to eat.
07-21-2009, 01:20 PM
#3
RE: What is it worth to us?
Mike,
I can see, from Google Earth, that you are in a fairly rural area with pretty flat terrain. As such, this doesn't really apply in your stuation. Where I am at, it is very hilly, and open land, like you have an abundance of is not availabe. What little there is, is too valuable to let ''a bunch of grown men with toy airplanes'' use for free. The field I have been flying at is slated to be shut down to widen the county road it is on to four lanes. I have found a good potential replacement site, but we will not get it for free.
(The shots below were both taken from ~50,000ft)
I can see, from Google Earth, that you are in a fairly rural area with pretty flat terrain. As such, this doesn't really apply in your stuation. Where I am at, it is very hilly, and open land, like you have an abundance of is not availabe. What little there is, is too valuable to let ''a bunch of grown men with toy airplanes'' use for free. The field I have been flying at is slated to be shut down to widen the county road it is on to four lanes. I have found a good potential replacement site, but we will not get it for free.
(The shots below were both taken from ~50,000ft)
07-21-2009, 01:33 PM
#4
RE: What is it worth to us?
True, but I used to live in San Diego and most recently, NY.
While CA has a high population, it also has a lot of open area - you just have to drive for a while to get to it.
In NY, we needed 3 areas where we could fly, because we had access to no one place year round (In other words, one place was available from Labor Day until memorial day, another was available June and July and the third was August), Note that most of these were an hours drive for most members
To me, one of the best things about moving to the mid west was the availability of places to fly.
In your case, you have 3 options:
1 Find a remote site and drive a ways.
2 Pay for play (Which at SoCal prices won't be cheap)
3 Move
While CA has a high population, it also has a lot of open area - you just have to drive for a while to get to it.
In NY, we needed 3 areas where we could fly, because we had access to no one place year round (In other words, one place was available from Labor Day until memorial day, another was available June and July and the third was August), Note that most of these were an hours drive for most members
To me, one of the best things about moving to the mid west was the availability of places to fly.
In your case, you have 3 options:
1 Find a remote site and drive a ways.
2 Pay for play (Which at SoCal prices won't be cheap)
3 Move
07-21-2009, 01:38 PM
#5
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RE: What is it worth to us?
On the subject of what you would pay, I would like to share this tid bit from a modeling aquaintance.
Modeler's, gotta love'em!
by Dick Burkhalter
As to the cheapness of R/C flyer's in comparison to golfers, fishermen and others who engage in expensive hobbies, I have some rather interesting psychological theories about that... Golf, fishing, owning and racing horses or cars, hunting or skeet shooting and a number of other expensive hobbies have always been regarded as adult hobbies to which kids might aspire.
The general attitude regarding spending money on those hobbies is that of "I've earned it as a part of the growing up and becoming a man process, therefore I deserve to spend whatever I want on this hobby, which by the way I use to further my business “Contacts”. On the other hand, building and flying model airplanes has traditionally been looked at as a juvenile hobby, which we're supposed to outgrow when we become men. The only men for whom model building and flying is considered a valid pastime are those who are somehow connected with doing it for business reasons. Hobby shop owners, model distributors, professional R/C competitors, special effects flyers for the movie or TV industry. Those guys are excused from criticism because, after all, they're making money at it and supplying all those toys we buy for our kids at Christmas. You may notice that even when there's a story in the popular press about some famous person who happens to be a modeler, it's almost always "and he used to build models as a kid," not "he has built models since he was a kid and continues to do so today."
How this affects modeler’s ability or willingness to spend money on his hobby and himself is quite obvious. Many of us still think we have to get permission from Daddy (or most accurately, Mommy) to spend some bucks on this "childish" pursuit we engage in, or we feel guilty if we spend more than our "allowance” on it. It's especially devastating to us to have to spend money to replace a model we crashed, because it's admitting we didn't know what we were doing. After all, "real men" don’t build their own shotguns, bass boats, horses, golf clubs or whatever, and for sure they don't crash them and wreck them half the time they go out and enjoy their hobby. (Car racers are exceptions which prove the rule; they’re considered only slightly more adult than us - we're pre-pubescent and they're teenagers, none of us has grown up anyway).
If you're out with some of your friends and they're all talking about their hobbies, boasting of their golf scores or the fish they caught or how much money they won at the track last week, do you pipe up with news about your latest R/C success?
Everyone who does, I'll give a buck. Everyone who doesn't, give me a buck. I'll have enough in a week to buy that new plane I've been lusting after. Even those who do, what kind of a reaction do you get? Sneers or laughter, I'll bet. Ribbing about still playing with kiddies toys and jokes about what's going to happen to you when you notice girls. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I have had guys say to me upon seeing my models or hearing me talk about them, "Oh, yeah, I built those when I was a kid! I had this full house B-29 with six motors in it and full radio control and was flying it out of the baseball field when a bird hit it and it crashed!" Or some such story. I'll bet it's happened to everyone in here. If it's something that happens while you're in a group of guys, they'll all laugh and try to top each other’s lies. What do you do? Do you stand up and say, "Hey, you guys, cut the B. S.! There's not a one of you who could a cut two sticks of balsa and make a straight spar! You were screwups when you were kids and you're still screwups now!" No, most likely you sit there and just try to ignore them, or you make some crack that indicates to all that you know they're fibbing and then turn the conversation to something else.
So what it boils down to for many adult modeler's is that they're embarrassed about their hobby and don't want to call attention to themselves, so they don't pony up to buy and maintain a nice field where they can be proud to go. So they fly off garbage dumps and wonder why nobody wants to come out and play with them but the flies.
Modeler's, gotta love'em!
by Dick Burkhalter
As to the cheapness of R/C flyer's in comparison to golfers, fishermen and others who engage in expensive hobbies, I have some rather interesting psychological theories about that... Golf, fishing, owning and racing horses or cars, hunting or skeet shooting and a number of other expensive hobbies have always been regarded as adult hobbies to which kids might aspire.
The general attitude regarding spending money on those hobbies is that of "I've earned it as a part of the growing up and becoming a man process, therefore I deserve to spend whatever I want on this hobby, which by the way I use to further my business “Contacts”. On the other hand, building and flying model airplanes has traditionally been looked at as a juvenile hobby, which we're supposed to outgrow when we become men. The only men for whom model building and flying is considered a valid pastime are those who are somehow connected with doing it for business reasons. Hobby shop owners, model distributors, professional R/C competitors, special effects flyers for the movie or TV industry. Those guys are excused from criticism because, after all, they're making money at it and supplying all those toys we buy for our kids at Christmas. You may notice that even when there's a story in the popular press about some famous person who happens to be a modeler, it's almost always "and he used to build models as a kid," not "he has built models since he was a kid and continues to do so today."
How this affects modeler’s ability or willingness to spend money on his hobby and himself is quite obvious. Many of us still think we have to get permission from Daddy (or most accurately, Mommy) to spend some bucks on this "childish" pursuit we engage in, or we feel guilty if we spend more than our "allowance” on it. It's especially devastating to us to have to spend money to replace a model we crashed, because it's admitting we didn't know what we were doing. After all, "real men" don’t build their own shotguns, bass boats, horses, golf clubs or whatever, and for sure they don't crash them and wreck them half the time they go out and enjoy their hobby. (Car racers are exceptions which prove the rule; they’re considered only slightly more adult than us - we're pre-pubescent and they're teenagers, none of us has grown up anyway).
If you're out with some of your friends and they're all talking about their hobbies, boasting of their golf scores or the fish they caught or how much money they won at the track last week, do you pipe up with news about your latest R/C success?
Everyone who does, I'll give a buck. Everyone who doesn't, give me a buck. I'll have enough in a week to buy that new plane I've been lusting after. Even those who do, what kind of a reaction do you get? Sneers or laughter, I'll bet. Ribbing about still playing with kiddies toys and jokes about what's going to happen to you when you notice girls. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I have had guys say to me upon seeing my models or hearing me talk about them, "Oh, yeah, I built those when I was a kid! I had this full house B-29 with six motors in it and full radio control and was flying it out of the baseball field when a bird hit it and it crashed!" Or some such story. I'll bet it's happened to everyone in here. If it's something that happens while you're in a group of guys, they'll all laugh and try to top each other’s lies. What do you do? Do you stand up and say, "Hey, you guys, cut the B. S.! There's not a one of you who could a cut two sticks of balsa and make a straight spar! You were screwups when you were kids and you're still screwups now!" No, most likely you sit there and just try to ignore them, or you make some crack that indicates to all that you know they're fibbing and then turn the conversation to something else.
So what it boils down to for many adult modeler's is that they're embarrassed about their hobby and don't want to call attention to themselves, so they don't pony up to buy and maintain a nice field where they can be proud to go. So they fly off garbage dumps and wonder why nobody wants to come out and play with them but the flies.
07-21-2009, 02:23 PM
#6
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
In your case, you have 3 options:
1 Find a remote site and drive a ways.
2 Pay for play (Which at SoCal prices won't be cheap)
3 Move
In your case, you have 3 options:
1 Find a remote site and drive a ways.
2 Pay for play (Which at SoCal prices won't be cheap)
3 Move
2. I no longer golf, so this is not that unattractive.
3. Grew up here, so it is not an option. (BTW. . . The weather SUCKS!!! Go away
)
07-21-2009, 02:36 PM
#8
RE: What is it worth to us?
Red,
That was very true. I am sure that everyone who reads it will find at least one thing in it that rings true to them. I fight for respect by, among other things, building my own. One of our local municipalities, Carlsbad, just outlawed all R/C operations at city parks. (forget what the T-Shirt says, in Carlsbad, skateboarding is a crime, and that's a shame) I have become involved with some locals who have gotten involved in a fight with city hall. This is research into some of the issues we have tossed around. We are working with AMA PFP on those issues, but I am concerned with the issue of larger nitro planes as well.
That was very true. I am sure that everyone who reads it will find at least one thing in it that rings true to them. I fight for respect by, among other things, building my own. One of our local municipalities, Carlsbad, just outlawed all R/C operations at city parks. (forget what the T-Shirt says, in Carlsbad, skateboarding is a crime, and that's a shame) I have become involved with some locals who have gotten involved in a fight with city hall. This is research into some of the issues we have tossed around. We are working with AMA PFP on those issues, but I am concerned with the issue of larger nitro planes as well.
07-21-2009, 02:38 PM
#9
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RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: dreadnaut
2. I no longer golf, so this is not that unattractive.
3. Grew up here, so it is not an option. (BTW. . . The weather SUCKS!!! Go away
)[/quote]
If everyone felt that way Florida would still belong to the Seminoles and their friends. Not that that would be so bad when I think about it.
07-21-2009, 07:19 PM
#12
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RE: What is it worth to us?
My current rc commute is 72 miles round trip. I dont golf but I do target shoot from time to time. I live rural which makes the target shooting easier. If there were no place to fly my gassers, I would move. I get cranky if I dont get to fly for a long time. Its that important to me. It dont matter if I was raised here.
Edwin
Edwin
07-21-2009, 08:03 PM
#13
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RE: What is it worth to us?
What would I pay for a flat piece of land? Not a whole lot. The smallest of parks, yards, garages, basements, rooms, churches, gyms, schools, city centers, hotel meeting rooms...the list goes on...can be used for all kinds of indoor flying activities. Most offer at least basic facilities like bathrooms and drinking water as well.
So...PAYING for a simply empty flat spot, JUST to be able to fly a "larger" airplane (which, in all likelihood, I'll have to clean when I'm done) outdoors?? Uh...no thanks.
Add a runway, and we're at least making some effort to have a "flying field". Not enough I'd pay, yet...heck, if it's just a mowed strip, i'll do the mowing, and we'll call it good.
Some starting benches, maybe a pit area? Ok...at least there's some consideration to getting out of the elements, keeping planes/pilots safe, etc...I'd probably pay $5-$10 to use it for the day, and not think too much about it.
An enclosed "clubhouse", some facilities, some utility service, paved runway, windsocks, that sort of thing? NOW we're talking. IMO, that sort of thing DOES start to approach the sort of facilities offered by public golf courses, so I'd pretty happily pay equivalent daily rates for whatever the area market dictated.
Truly "special" airfields....the kind you only encounter 2-3 times in a lifetime...places with dedicated "clubhouses" like a golf course, with TV, concessions, meeting rooms, indoor facilities, bar/grill, etc, covered storage areas for airplanes, multiple paved runways, manicured grounds, that sort of thing...they could command country-club type rates, imo.
So...PAYING for a simply empty flat spot, JUST to be able to fly a "larger" airplane (which, in all likelihood, I'll have to clean when I'm done) outdoors?? Uh...no thanks.
Add a runway, and we're at least making some effort to have a "flying field". Not enough I'd pay, yet...heck, if it's just a mowed strip, i'll do the mowing, and we'll call it good.
Some starting benches, maybe a pit area? Ok...at least there's some consideration to getting out of the elements, keeping planes/pilots safe, etc...I'd probably pay $5-$10 to use it for the day, and not think too much about it.
An enclosed "clubhouse", some facilities, some utility service, paved runway, windsocks, that sort of thing? NOW we're talking. IMO, that sort of thing DOES start to approach the sort of facilities offered by public golf courses, so I'd pretty happily pay equivalent daily rates for whatever the area market dictated.
Truly "special" airfields....the kind you only encounter 2-3 times in a lifetime...places with dedicated "clubhouses" like a golf course, with TV, concessions, meeting rooms, indoor facilities, bar/grill, etc, covered storage areas for airplanes, multiple paved runways, manicured grounds, that sort of thing...they could command country-club type rates, imo.
07-21-2009, 09:34 PM
#14
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RE: What is it worth to us?
there are flying site all over the san diego area, I just flew in Escondido like 6 weeks ago. it a ways from you but el cajon has a huge club.
Is it that bad a drive to san marcos, they have a ok field too
[link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx]club search[/link]
your right there are not too many undesignated places that a safe to fly around the area but there are allot of clubs,
the question you should be asking is how far you willing to drive to fly plane.
Heck I try to drive to sepuvida basin a couple times a year, 3 hours from me, it always a good show and flying a crowd can be great fun.
Were I'm at I have to drive about a half hour to Santa Maria to fly my big stuff now.
Is it that bad a drive to san marcos, they have a ok field too
[link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx]club search[/link]
your right there are not too many undesignated places that a safe to fly around the area but there are allot of clubs,
the question you should be asking is how far you willing to drive to fly plane.
Heck I try to drive to sepuvida basin a couple times a year, 3 hours from me, it always a good show and flying a crowd can be great fun.
Were I'm at I have to drive about a half hour to Santa Maria to fly my big stuff now.
07-21-2009, 09:35 PM
#15
RE: What is it worth to us?
Sadly, most are missing the point that the only amenity that really matters is preventing some elected official, or their corporate sponsor, from looking at that flying field and saying to themselves "we could make more money off that parcel as a golf course, or strip mall''
You want land for free? So do I. Ain't going to happen.
You want land for free? So do I. Ain't going to happen.
07-21-2009, 09:41 PM
#16
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: redfox435cat
there are flying site all over the san diego area, I just flew in Escondido like 6 weeks ago. (twenty five mile drive. Are you talking about Gopher Canyon?) it a ways from you but el cajon has a huge club (1st Weed Whacker Aero Squadron is a renowned club, but their field is marginal, and a 50 mile drive.)
Is it that bad a drive to san marcos, they have a ok field too (Strip mall)
[link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx]club search[/link]
your right there are not too many undesignated places that a safe to fly around the area but there are allot of clubs,
the question you should be asking is how far you willing to drive to fly plane.
Heck I try to drive to sepulvida basin a couple times a year(been there, done that, don't get me started-Lived near there from '95-'03), 3 hours from me, it always a good show and flying a crowd can be great fun.
Were I'm at I have to drive about a half hour to Santa Maria to fly my big stuff now.
there are flying site all over the san diego area, I just flew in Escondido like 6 weeks ago. (twenty five mile drive. Are you talking about Gopher Canyon?) it a ways from you but el cajon has a huge club (1st Weed Whacker Aero Squadron is a renowned club, but their field is marginal, and a 50 mile drive.)
Is it that bad a drive to san marcos, they have a ok field too (Strip mall)
[link=http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx]club search[/link]
your right there are not too many undesignated places that a safe to fly around the area but there are allot of clubs,
the question you should be asking is how far you willing to drive to fly plane.
Heck I try to drive to sepulvida basin a couple times a year(been there, done that, don't get me started-Lived near there from '95-'03), 3 hours from me, it always a good show and flying a crowd can be great fun.
Were I'm at I have to drive about a half hour to Santa Maria to fly my big stuff now.
07-25-2009, 10:59 PM
#17
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RE: What is it worth to us?
I'm thinking that around here a sufficiently large parcel without water rights would go for around $30,000. Add $20,000 to pave a runway and maybe $10,000 for other improvements, so $60,000, put down 10K, finance the rest at about $600 a month for 30 years. Depending on how many in the club, let's say 25, the annual dues would need to be about $300 to cover the mortgage, insurance and maintanence. Round it up to $1 a day.
07-26-2009, 07:47 AM
#18
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: ctdahle
I'm thinking that around here a sufficiently large parcel without water rights would go for around $30,000. Add $20,000 to pave a runway and maybe $10,000 for other improvements, so $60,000, put down 10K, finance the rest at about $600 a month for 30 years. Depending on how many in the club, let's say 25, the annual dues would need to be about $300 to cover the mortgage, insurance and maintanence. Round it up to $1 a day.
I'm thinking that around here a sufficiently large parcel without water rights would go for around $30,000. Add $20,000 to pave a runway and maybe $10,000 for other improvements, so $60,000, put down 10K, finance the rest at about $600 a month for 30 years. Depending on how many in the club, let's say 25, the annual dues would need to be about $300 to cover the mortgage, insurance and maintanence. Round it up to $1 a day.
07-26-2009, 09:52 AM
#19
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RE: What is it worth to us?
Great, now I know that you are willing to discuss real prices in the real world and that is critical. Many R/C ers seem to think that once they own the airplane, they have some sort of constitutional right to a flying site, on public land, for free.
Now lets play with some numbers. They may seem shockingly high, but I suspect that 10 years from now they will seem naively low.
The thing about land is...They ain't making any more of it. So clubs that want to be flying 20 years from now need to OWN their land, and the only way they are going to keep it is if they are associated in a very friendly way with a compatible industry that MUST also have land.
I've had the good fortune of living where land is cheap and have been priviledged to fly from nice big flying sites, so I think the minimum size for a flying field is a quarter-section, 160 acres. If I had to start from scratch, I'd look for an irrigated quarter appropriate for growing grains or hay.
I'd team up with the most financially savvy members of the club and I'd form a corporation or LLC that would buy the piece of farmland. These people would have to have the financial strength to guarantee the loan. Then I would find a farmer who would lease the land and grow hay or grain on the overflight area. The LLC would lease the land to the farmer for farming and to the club for flying. Flying activites would have to be scheduled around the farming, but that should be doable. The idea is to have the farm income cover a substantial part of your mortgage payment.
I'm not familiar with land prices in your area, but I'd make a really wild guess that you could buy and improve an appropriate piece of farmland for half a million.
When I run numbers like this ("Back of a napkin calculations") I over-estimate costs and under-estimate revenues. I use the very rough formula that when you take out a mortgage, you will pay back about 3 times the amount borrowed over a 30 year period. So if you borrow $500,000, you need to pay it back at the rate of $50,000 annually. Hopefully you can realize $25,000 from the farm lease and your charter members will put up a chunk of a down payment, so maybe you can reduce your mortgage payment that way. Still, you need to assume that you'll have to service debt to the tune of maybe $30,000 annually, probably more. Divide that by 100 club members, and you are at dues of $300. But you'll need to cover contingencies as well, insurance, maintenance, club house, sealing the runway.
For a well planned and well managed flying site with a nice clubhouse and a properly and safely laid out runway, I'd say that a $2,000 initiation fee and annual dues of $400 would be reasonable. However, that would put flying out of reach for MANY modelers. Cheaper than golf however (local country club here: initiation fee , $30,000, annual dues, $5,000).
Now lets play with some numbers. They may seem shockingly high, but I suspect that 10 years from now they will seem naively low.
The thing about land is...They ain't making any more of it. So clubs that want to be flying 20 years from now need to OWN their land, and the only way they are going to keep it is if they are associated in a very friendly way with a compatible industry that MUST also have land.
I've had the good fortune of living where land is cheap and have been priviledged to fly from nice big flying sites, so I think the minimum size for a flying field is a quarter-section, 160 acres. If I had to start from scratch, I'd look for an irrigated quarter appropriate for growing grains or hay.
I'd team up with the most financially savvy members of the club and I'd form a corporation or LLC that would buy the piece of farmland. These people would have to have the financial strength to guarantee the loan. Then I would find a farmer who would lease the land and grow hay or grain on the overflight area. The LLC would lease the land to the farmer for farming and to the club for flying. Flying activites would have to be scheduled around the farming, but that should be doable. The idea is to have the farm income cover a substantial part of your mortgage payment.
I'm not familiar with land prices in your area, but I'd make a really wild guess that you could buy and improve an appropriate piece of farmland for half a million.
When I run numbers like this ("Back of a napkin calculations") I over-estimate costs and under-estimate revenues. I use the very rough formula that when you take out a mortgage, you will pay back about 3 times the amount borrowed over a 30 year period. So if you borrow $500,000, you need to pay it back at the rate of $50,000 annually. Hopefully you can realize $25,000 from the farm lease and your charter members will put up a chunk of a down payment, so maybe you can reduce your mortgage payment that way. Still, you need to assume that you'll have to service debt to the tune of maybe $30,000 annually, probably more. Divide that by 100 club members, and you are at dues of $300. But you'll need to cover contingencies as well, insurance, maintenance, club house, sealing the runway.
For a well planned and well managed flying site with a nice clubhouse and a properly and safely laid out runway, I'd say that a $2,000 initiation fee and annual dues of $400 would be reasonable. However, that would put flying out of reach for MANY modelers. Cheaper than golf however (local country club here: initiation fee , $30,000, annual dues, $5,000).
07-26-2009, 11:02 AM
#20
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: ctdahle
. . . , so I think the minimum size for a flying field is a quarter-section, 160 acres. If I had to start from scratch, I'd look for an irrigated quarter appropriate for growing grains or hay.
. . . , so I think the minimum size for a flying field is a quarter-section, 160 acres. If I had to start from scratch, I'd look for an irrigated quarter appropriate for growing grains or hay.
I'd team up with the most financially savvy members of the club and I'd form a corporation or LLC that would buy the piece of farmland. These people would have to have the financial strength to guarantee the loan. Then I would find a farmer who would lease the land and grow hay or grain on the overflight area. The LLC would lease the land to the farmer for farming and to the club for flying. Flying activites would have to be scheduled around the farming, but that should be doable. The idea is to have the farm income cover a substantial part of your mortgage payment.
I'm not familiar with land prices in your area, but I'd make a really wild guess that you could buy and improve an appropriate piece of farmland for half a million.
When I run numbers like this (''Back of a napkin calculations'') I over-estimate costs and under-estimate revenues. I use the very rough formula that when you take out a mortgage, you will pay back about 3 times the amount borrowed over a 30 year period. So if you borrow $500,000, you need to pay it back at the rate of $50,000 annually. Hopefully you can realize $25,000 from the farm lease and your charter members will put up a chunk of a down payment, so maybe you can reduce your mortgage payment that way. Still, you need to assume that you'll have to service debt to the tune of maybe $30,000 annually, probably more. Divide that by 100 club members, and you are at dues of $300. But you'll need to cover contingencies as well, insurance, maintenance, club house, sealing the runway.
For a well planned and well managed flying site with a nice clubhouse and a properly and safely laid out runway, I'd say that a $2,000 initiation fee and annual dues of $400 would be reasonable. However, that would put flying out of reach for MANY modelers. Cheaper than golf however (local country club here: initiation fee , $30,000, annual dues, $5,000).
I was also thinking that rather than a formal club, or maybe in addition to, have a field open to any AMA member who can buy a day pass. The passes would be sold at a local 7-Eleven store (I got the idea from a city owned lake in LA that sells fishing licenses from a 7-Eleven store. 7-Eleven goes along, and sells the licences at cost, because a lot of people who buy licences, buy Slurpies too). The ''Club'', would be an LLC like you mentioned, Membership would include an annual pass. ''Stewards'' would be required to check passes and enforce safety (and the city would probably require some sort of live site management.) This could be accomplished on a semi-volunteer basis by club members who are compensated with flight time, or discounted membership based on hours worked.
07-26-2009, 11:13 AM
#21
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: ctdahle
Great, now I know that you are willing to discuss real prices in the real world and that is critical. Many R/C ers seem to think that once they own the airplane, they have some sort of constitutional right to a flying site, on public land, for free.
Now lets play with some numbers. They may seem shockingly high, but I suspect that 10 years from now they will seem naively low.
The thing about land is...They ain't making any more of it. So clubs that want to be flying 20 years from now need to OWN their land, and the only way they are going to keep it is if they are associated in a very friendly way with a compatible industry that MUST also have land.
Great, now I know that you are willing to discuss real prices in the real world and that is critical. Many R/C ers seem to think that once they own the airplane, they have some sort of constitutional right to a flying site, on public land, for free.
Now lets play with some numbers. They may seem shockingly high, but I suspect that 10 years from now they will seem naively low.
The thing about land is...They ain't making any more of it. So clubs that want to be flying 20 years from now need to OWN their land, and the only way they are going to keep it is if they are associated in a very friendly way with a compatible industry that MUST also have land.
I've had the good fortune of living where land is cheap and have been priviledged to fly from nice big flying sites, so I think the minimum size for a flying field is a quarter-section, 160 acres. If I had to start from scratch, I'd look for an irrigated quarter appropriate for growing grains or hay.
I'd team up with the most financially savvy members of the club and I'd form a corporation or LLC that would buy the piece of farmland. These people would have to have the financial strength to guarantee the loan. Then I would find a farmer who would lease the land and grow hay or grain on the overflight area. The LLC would lease the land to the farmer for farming and to the club for flying. Flying activites would have to be scheduled around the farming, but that should be doable. The idea is to have the farm income cover a substantial part of your mortgage payment.
I'd team up with the most financially savvy members of the club and I'd form a corporation or LLC that would buy the piece of farmland. These people would have to have the financial strength to guarantee the loan. Then I would find a farmer who would lease the land and grow hay or grain on the overflight area. The LLC would lease the land to the farmer for farming and to the club for flying. Flying activites would have to be scheduled around the farming, but that should be doable. The idea is to have the farm income cover a substantial part of your mortgage payment.
1.Incorporate the club: IRC 501 (c) (7) works very well.
2. The retiree sets up an account to purchase the land by rolling over the purchase price into a Trust Held Self Directed IRA account.
3. Retiree then buys the land. The Trust becomes the property owner For Benefit Of XXX (retiree). The retiree then determines with the club the terms of the sale to the club as any regular real estate function. CAUTION: I fully recommend the use of a Real Estate Attorney vice a Broker, as an attorney can usually circumnavigate some state laws that are restrictive in such a dealing. Generally RE Brokers are not able to do such.
4. In the S-D IRA, the retiree CAN act as his own agent. That is better because actions can be accomplished faster and with less problems. Retiree, as own agent, handles all functions of taxes, mortgage notes, any farming leases, and other financial considerations. Normally he will collect funds, turn them over to Trust, maintain all records, and any other considerations. Agents cost money, and do make errors, so doing it by self is less expensive and much easier.
5. Reference farm leases, the size of the land parcel will have different values as well as the tax expenses. Land under agriculture is taxed much less than non-ag land. Jetero RC Club, Inc. has 50 acres. 44 acres is in ag for Hay. The property tax on those 44 acres amounts to about 1/6th of the actual facility 6 acres property tax. The lease to the farmer is free, because he harvests hay 3-4 times a year and keeps the place looking good. The savings in property tax is pay enough for the club, and helps the farmer remain happy when he has to bring equipment, etc., into the area to do the harvesting. WIN - WIN.
6. CAUTION: The retiree can be a member of the club, as long as he pays member dues. He can dictate certain conditions called Deed Restrictions during the sale contract. HE CANNOT serve as an officer or special position as this would become one of the arms-length prohibited transactions which the IRS could then determine the sale amount to be a distribution and the entire amount subject to Federal Income Tax.
I'm not familiar with land prices in your area, but I'd make a really wild guess that you could buy and improve an appropriate piece of farmland for half a million.
//SNIP//
But you'll need to cover contingencies as well, insurance, maintenance, club house, sealing the runway.
//SNIP//
But you'll need to cover contingencies as well, insurance, maintenance, club house, sealing the runway.
For 13 years, insurance would have been about as much. ?????? Who knows?
For a well planned and well managed flying site with a nice clubhouse and a properly and safely laid out runway, I'd say that a $2,000 initiation fee and annual dues of $400 would be reasonable. However, that would put flying out of reach for MANY modelers. Cheaper than golf however (local country club here: initiation fee, $30,000, annual dues, $5,000).
Anyway Clubs should be out looking and planning for the next 20 years. I was 20 years younger and that was just yesterday, it seems. Time is gone before one can turn around and no one knows where it went.
Edit: replace a wrong word and add 6. above
07-26-2009, 09:55 PM
#23
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield
Wow, a country club for modelers. I would join in a heartbeat if there were one established handy to where I live.
Wow, a country club for modelers. I would join in a heartbeat if there were one established handy to where I live.
Then BUILD IT, RED! [sm=lol.gif] As it has been written: "If you build it, they will come!"
07-26-2009, 11:31 PM
#24
RE: What is it worth to us?
ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield
On the subject of what you would pay, I would like to share this tid bit from a modeling aquaintance.
Modeler's, gotta love'em!
by Dick Burkhalter
So what it boils down to for many adult modeler's is that they're embarrassed about their hobby and don't want to call attention to themselves, so they don't pony up to buy and maintain a nice field where they can be proud to go. So they fly off garbage dumps and wonder why nobody wants to come out and play with them but the flies.
On the subject of what you would pay, I would like to share this tid bit from a modeling aquaintance.
Modeler's, gotta love'em!
by Dick Burkhalter
So what it boils down to for many adult modeler's is that they're embarrassed about their hobby and don't want to call attention to themselves, so they don't pony up to buy and maintain a nice field where they can be proud to go. So they fly off garbage dumps and wonder why nobody wants to come out and play with them but the flies.
07-27-2009, 11:28 PM
#25
Senior Member
RE: What is it worth to us?
Wow. I am lucky as far as my flying field. No lease, just a generous landowner and friend letting us use a corner of his pasture. And it's five minutes away. And it's 400' X '100 of nice grass. Irrigation ditch is 80 feet away. Fence perimeter is 150 feet outside of the actual field. We keep it locked and gated, most of the time. And that's only because of the animals. There are only four of us that I would call 'active' flyers. And I use insect repellent about 20% of the time, and I am an evening flyer. Summer nights on my latitude last til 9:30 or 10 in the peak summer hours. I'm lucky as hell with Moritz Field in Conrad, Montana. It takes about an hour to mow the field once a week or so, and another hour to mow the off field and parking. I do it between flights. We have crushed asphalt for a driveway now too. Thanks to a generous member that just doesn't fly much anymore.
I feel bad for you guys that have such a PITA to fly.
I feel bad for you guys that have such a PITA to fly.
