OhD

So get on a little power so the prop is pulling. It sounds like you want the plane to coast at just the right speed.

Jim

Anthony-RCU

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Bryan,
I flew a plane called the Eureka a long time ago that tried for a similar goal. It had a .60 sized two cycle and was designed in Europe as the 4 strokes were becoming popular. It had a large span thick airfoil wing and fixed gear. It required you to drag it through maneuvers and as long as you had the power it worked well. Had a worn out YS .61 in it for a while and it was a bit of a bear. When I could afford a new engine the whole plane changed.

flyncajun

LOL, Jim I give up !
your not reading or understanding my post ,your trying to solve a problem for me I don`t have.
The airplane is not draggy to the point of being marginal on power, I know how to use the throttle, Dancing with the plane using the throttle is a total different demand, and what I`m looking for , I want to lead it ,command it , have perfect control over it. on or off the throttle. The best Prop / engine /design combo is the goal .The Allure is balanced to take advantage of the power curve of the Contra and the new YS Engines. you may not understand that , But I do work hard at these things. it`s why My airplanes are not copies of other designs

I wasn`t complaining about it being too draggy, I was bragging on the Contra and the new Blades complementing My design Theory perfectly. The point is, A prop combo can Make or break the design and the pattern flow. I don`t feel the large props work as well on the Allure as the smaller props do. I`m demanding two different qualities from the blades at the same time ,a perfect balance.

Anthony what the two strokes did not have is torque we are In a different world of design now, But I understand what you mean.
I could pylon race with the Allure no problem we have more than enough power today for any conditions , If you watched Brett fly it at the Nats we used the YS 175 with the 20.5-10 APC barley ever went full throttle. even in the wind.

Bryan

OhD

I should probably give up too. I did read, but I might not understand your post. I'm not trying to solve a problem you don't have, I'm trying to point out you don't have a problem if you have enough thrust and enough drag and/or braking that you can control. You can't control (change during flight) the drag of the plane but you can control the drag to some extent, and thrust created by the propeller(s). In the end it doesn't matter if the drag comes from the plane or the propellers but from the propellers is better because it is controllable. Like a race car, zero drag and great proportional brakes would be optimum. The end.

Jim O

To all readers:
Bryan and I are just having fun with this discussion because there isn't much else going on in this forum these days.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Which is the reason I get very reluctant to get involved. If you ask me I'll tell you I prefer the full length 22" props, 22 pitch on the rear and 20 pitch on the front. I've tried all the ratios and all the different prop combos. I have not liked the APC or their carbon clones as the model just does not feel as solid to me with those props. I have no problem with horizontal speed as it is sufficient even in hard wind. Ask some guys who saw it fly at Victorville. What I want is good speed going up and a solid feeling model at all times and so far the bigger props seem better at that to me. Using the 9.89 ratio with the bigger props requires a lot of throttle management as the current draw is pretty high. I've settled on the 10.33 ratio but I'm not pretending that it is the holy grail of ratios. There is not a lot of percentage difference with the different ratios. If you want to talk yourself in to one being better then the other it is pretty easy to do. I know I spent a lot of time trimming the ends of the blades and curving the tips. Was pretty convinced for a long time that had to be done. But now I don't think it's needed or makes much of a difference.

Which goes to show almost everything in this event is subjective.

BTW, 2,414 flights on the Contra in 4 different models.

flyncajun

Tony
I appreciate you weighing in, and value your comments on this unit as one of the Authorities.
I know there are many options on this set up and you have many flights on the contra I respect that.
I`m by no means an expert on the Contra, but I`m THE expert on my design That`s what I was concentrating on.


My Post was more related to how the airplane design responds to certain blades off power not on power. The Allure has nearly 1100 Square in. wings with a thicker airfoil than any plane on the market, The fuse Dwarfs all other Mono`s being produced currently at 8" wide and almost 17" tall. It`s a new classification of LARGE mono. so the drag profile is different. there is no way to compare the feeling of the large blades on a smaller model to this larger model I don`t think. But, this model size direction is a plus for the contra I`m sure, it gives the unit more flexibility of gear/prop selection to match the airframe. Most of the airplanes the Contra was installed in at the beginning were smallish airframes requiring the drag and slow pace offered by the big blades. I`m sure the 22" props would work fine on the Valiant but I would not run them, I don`t think, on the Alferma!


If props did not make a difference and all you had to do is just "hold more throttle" there would be no need to make more than one set of props for any motor!.


Dave L. told me he was not as fond of the smaller blades and liked a set up similar to yours as well , I`m not saying I won`t end up there ,I was trying to give the reasons to why I ended up liking the smaller blades in the wind, and the rational as to why. It was not a dis. to those who recommended the larger blade and gear changes.

If I can get to it this weekend I will try your setup and report back my impressions.
Thanks for weighing in Tony.

Bryan

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

.
Sounds to me that what y'all need (except Bryan) is a variable pitch prop, from +24 to about -2 degrees pitch.
.
Probably never go into the negative range except when backing into position for takeoff.
.

Jason Arnold

There's probably a rule against that Keith... lol

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

.
Yeah . . . the longer I fly pattern, the less I care about the rules . .
.

OhD

I'm with you Keith. And I've been flying pattern for a long time. Anything that improves the state of the art should be allowed.

Jim O

flyncajun

I flew the Contra version Allure this weekend again at the Cajun Nat`s.
I was not able to swap gear/ prop sets due to time, but again I felt certain the APC clones worked really well. still no brakes on the ESC. Some of the comments I got from others was the airplane seemed too slow in the down lines. we had moderate winds 10-15mph

Brett had a chance to fly it and was impressed! as was I when I first flew it. It has changed my opinion on the Contra totally.
Matched with the right airframe it`s really hard to beat. the rolling ability of the airplane Excels especially in the up lines. but it`s really nice in the horizontal lines as well, honestly I will say it`s a little easier to fly than the glow all around Very solid. I know I`m a late comer to the enlightenment but if I`m being Honest....Both versions have things they excel at. Neither have any negative attributes.

I took a few videos of Brett and A.C. Glenn flying the airplane AC. went on a snap tirade I`ll post them on CKAero soon

Bryan

serious power

Hi Bryan
I'm really happy, particularly for Brenner and Co, to read such positive feedback from you guys.
I was enjoying the conversation you were having with Jim, but I'd like to see you try those props some more and then hear further. There is a learning curve involved.
Re the 'too slow in the down lines' comments ;
Probably some perspective issues in there.
Were those guys to see it with the big props on, and a high break setting as well, that perspective might change some. (Not a set up I would use but some of the top guys in Europe are doing so)

Brian

flyncajun

Yea Brenner has a Winner !

I know there is a learning curve on the contra I`m no expert I`ll let Dave Handle that I have all my experience with Glow. I could tell right away however the Contra was Awesome. I`m glad Brenner sent it to me and I devoted the effort to design a plane ,install and test it.

The" too slow" comment was more of a confirmation to me, we were not over selling the results of those blades on this set up and airframe. this came from guys who flew it and observed it. It`s not a overly accurate statement, just an observation comment that we were Accurate in the evaluation of the Airframe- Contra/props match.

We have no add on`s on the Allure, it`s rock solid . It was flown and tested by two top pilots. They tried and could not find any yaw or odd behavior problems.

Scott has not stopped smiling yet. Every time I talk to him he`s more excited with the airplane/contra than the last.
I don`t endorse new things quickly because I value my word. Even though others have told me it`s a great advancement I wanted to prove it for myself , I guess I`m hard headed like that. I was Wrong, it is Legit ! I`m not saying it`s the Best But it`s equal to the rest and has attributes that are better in areas than other setups.
If you can afford it, Buy one you will love it!


Bryan

Jason Arnold

Hey Bryan,

Do you have any updates or photos from the factory on how production is going?

Cheers,
Jason.

flyncajun

Hi Jason

No recent updates yet.
The new molds are being produced and my slot is up for production
all details are finalized ,just waiting on models to come out now If I have update I will post them on the website

AC Glenn was going to give us an impression of his flights on both Allures this weekend, I hope he can chime is soon.

Bryan

Jason Arnold

Thanks Bryan,

Really looking forward to seeing the video's and AC's impressions.

Cheers,
Jason.

AC Glenn

My Feedback: (2)

Hey Guys,

First off I want to thank Bryan for letting me fly both the glow and contra Allure after the contest this weekend.
I will say that both airplanes flew great. I flew on Brett's setup for the glow one and was able to fly the airplane as if I had several flights on it already. The airplane snaps very well as you will all see when Bryan post the video of me flying the glow one. The airplane is very predictable in all aspects. On the electric one I flew with Scott's setup with aside from the rudder being a little more sensitive then I likedthe setup was exactly what I wanted. I was amazed at how slow I could fly both airplanes. If you know my flying you know I fly a little faster then most I was able to do both with the Allure. Fly slow and also speed it up and fly faster. This for me is a great advantage to have in a airplane. The allure also penetrates the crosswind very well I thought with a big fuse the airplane would be harder to fly in the wind and it was the exact opposite. I'm hoping to get more time on the airplane in the coming months. Thanks Again Bryan

flyncajun

Thanks AC

One of the biggest myths in pattern design is a big airplane fuselage won`t fly well in the wind, going all the way back to Mike MCconville`s Desire back twenty plus years ago. I think he was an innovator.
CG and wing incidence is the most important setting aspect of any design and is the biggest influence on how it handles rough air.

Mass displacement is what makes an airplane solid in the wind Especially with our slower flying style today. when it`s designed and setup right it`s better in rough air, Just like a bigger Airliner handles rough air better, or bigger Ships handle rough sea`s better.

Speed helps in the wind, even more so when the design or setup is poor, But when the design is good you can fly in all conditions without much change in the approach or style of flying.

Bryan

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

I have to agree with AC concerning crosswinds. With such a massive side area on the Allure, I expected to really have to concentrate on fighting the crosswind and expected, with a crosswind blowing in, it'd be very hard to keep the plane out and at 150 meters. In actuality, the aircraft fights the crosswind completely on its own. In fact, it's very interesting to actually have to give rudder to keep the aircraft in when the crosswind is blowing in. Completely different mentality to what one is used to but makes it very easy to remain at the proper distance in any type of wind you would expect. This is evident, not only on the Contra, but the glow Allure as well. Every day that I fly this airplane, I become more impressed with its attributes.

I did use Futaba's spline feature and reduce the rudder per AC's suggestion just near the center on the Allure with the Contra. AC put on a snap clinic with both aircraft (I'll have the videos edited and put together soon) and I feel very confident after Brett, Bryan, and AC flew my setup that I have it right. I have tried several different CG settings and have found that, although there are very subtle changes in characteristics, this model has a very wide CG range that it flies well at. There is no mixing still and all of the adjustments made have been through CG as Bryan suggests to me.

Concerning the throttle curve, I believe that I am close with the Contra. When I first started flying it, all of the throttle was between 20%-40% and, although very flyable, it needed to be spread out a little more. I have a nice curve on it where the crux of the throttle is now spread across the majority of stick travel. There seems to be a small point in the bottom 15% of the stick where the first few clicks don't respond enough. I will fix this with a spline on the transmitter vs. an expo curve. This should cure it completely and give us the "feel" that we've been searching for.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

I've finished editing the videos of AC Glenn flying both the Contra and the glow Allure. Here are his impressions on each and the comparison of the two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuHEYcXmwSo

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Although Brett has a lot of time on the glow Allure, he hasn’t had the opportunity to fly the Contra Allure….until now. At the Cajun Nats in Crowley, LA., I brought the Contra Allure over for Brett to get his hands on. Brett flew the plane with my settings and we all knew we wouldn't be looking for perfection as the plane was not set up for Brett. The purpose was for him to evaluate the plane and Contra combination without having it set up for him. Here is the flight and interview with Brett & Bryan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vtj6jZUqRk More information can always be found at http://www.ckaero.net

Jason Arnold

Hey Scott,

Thanks for posting the videos and thanks to the cameraman & pilots. Really looking great!

Do you guys use a tripod with the camera or just freehand?

Cheers,
Jason.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Jason,

Bryan was the cameraman. He does it freehand. I tried that....the video wasn't very good. Guess I need a neck strap to do that too! We thought about the tripod but quickly discovered we needed more fluid movement.

flyncajun

Filming a pattern plane is really hard to do well where you can evaluate the flight. In those Videos the sun was in my right eye the whole time Making it hard to focus. and I had a hard time keeping the airplane centered in the monitor.
It takes being aware of the camera whether it`s level, and a smooth movement from the waist up. It`s very hard to do more than 2 flights back to back. you can see some times in a filmed flight it looks like the airplane may be climbing or diving. It`s a learned filming perspective and how to handle the camera.

But both Brett and I do a lot of filming for own evaluation of the design and training, If you study the film you make see your flaws in the filming technique and you learn to get better at is as you go. I have hours of WC film, Nats film Ect as far back as 1996.

Mostly to evaluate my designs in flight.

But sadly some is on Dig8 and I don`t have the ability t transfer it to a computer.

Bryan

Jason Arnold

Thanks for the explanation Bryan. I guess unless you've actually tried to film an F3A model flying it's difficult to truly appreciate how hard it is.

I can see the benefit of filming your flights for coaching. All the big sports do it to improve or beat the opposition. Can you film my flights? ��

Wonder how well some sort of helmet camera would do the job.....

Cheers,
Jason.