Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

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Old 10-05-2012, 09:03 PM
  #51
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil


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ORIGINAL: MJD

I have several OPS Super .60 pattern engines, but no Piccos. The OPS is known for power too, but it won't turn 22k with a 9-10. 22k with a 9x10 is serious power - I would expect this maybe from a 10cc rear intake engine with ducted fan timing, large bore carb and proper pipe setup. But from a front intake pattern/sport engine? Maybe, I dunno. All I can say for sure is that if your Picco can do it, then you have a great engine there!
You probably right MJD , this engine probably won't hit the 22k mark , something disappointing to me , I think I'll use this engine just to maiden it and see if all the mods were well done , especially the airfoil.

Today I received the new pipe (10cc) and the "expensive" 90° fitting , before do the timming job , I'll add some nitro , fit the new pipe , change the carb for a bigger one from Rossi ( wich I already have) as the original Picco came with the high needle broken ( see picture) , tune the pipe and see how much the RPM can improve with these changes.

I forgot to say the other guy wich has the other Picco also changed the carb for a bigger one from Rossi too.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:31 PM
  #52
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

The Shrike might be clean enough / light enough to allow the use of less prop than a 9x10..?
The engine would need the high timing and air handling capability to give a big enough increase in RPM to make the smaller prop idea work.
IIRC..APC made a 8x10. One thing I know for sure about APC is that every prop they have ever made has an application. They will discontinue props that no longer have an application..but I've always wondered who was making good use of their 8x10 props..and what was the application..?
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:39 AM
  #53
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

The only aircraft I know of in the mainstream for which the 8x10 was recommended is the Magnum - Weston suggests 8x8, 8x9, and 8x10 on the West .50. I never liked it with the 8x10 but that's just me. Weston said their factory demo teams flew up to 248 on the 8x10. Reality says no West .50 equipped Magnum ever got to 200 except in a terminal dive with the wings stripped off.

The only place I heard of the 7x10 "sport" prop being used is with snotty electric motors in pylon airframes. Can't imagine much else for it, other than maybe older B speed engines?

I think the 9x10 would be about as small as you might want to go with that Picco .60 engine due to timing and breathing constraints. But..? The guys running F3S in super clean airframes with OPS VAE .60's on pressure and venturis run 8x13, 8x12, 8.5x11 ish sizes but up in the mid '20's. The more everyday sport speeders they fly over there on 10cc and up DF engines typically go 9x10 so they have enough disc area for the draggier airframes.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:49 AM
  #54
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

I have used the 8x10 on some clean planes but on engines spinning it at around 16-17,000 though. these planes were only around 150 or so. Just have to run a bunch of props on the ground. record all the rpms of these different props. now put them on a chart and you wil see where the engine liks to run best. now when you find where it likes to run set the engine up so that its rich and slightly bigger prop (just below this peak the engine likes). this way once in the air it will come on the pipe and be hauling the mail. you want it on the pipe in the air not so much so on the ground.

Edit:
i also think you would be best in the 8-9" pitch range with this plane. If there is a way to cowl in the engine and pipe you could see another 10-15 mph also i think.
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:12 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

the front intake ops will turn the 22-23 k rpm , if the carbs a large 10MM rossi, and you have raised the timing, free flighters run them that high on high nitro fuel and minipipes i have attached some pictures of tether car sleeves used on picco 60 engines which have set world records in tether cars in excess of 200mph..the picco and ops engines have 95 percent parts interchange. speedmodelcar.com is the site to search
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:43 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

Your tempting me to take the Dremel tool to a Super .60 to make a FIRE sport speed mill. No good could come of that.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:54 PM
  #57
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

The 1st photo shows the clever trick done to the piston skirt. The raised skirt not only makes the piston a little bit lighter, but it allows better [more] transfer port flow when the piston is at the bottom of the stroke.
DIYers who try this need to be careful not to extend the removal of piston material into the view of the exhaust port.
Those pistons show no excess [wasted] material, they look like the designer wants the lightest piston that is practical to make.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:59 AM
  #58
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

one can buy these for 150 euros and drop them in a ops or picco case, there is a source for the knife edged rods as well on the site. the Novaross 61 rear exhaust engine at 230$ is a contender as well , they have placed at the top in the speedcup as well.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:30 AM
  #59
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

I had no idea that Novarossi 60s were so cheap..! Don't their little car engines go for...$500..?
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:18 PM
  #60
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

But if you look at the spec on the .60's, they aren't too wildly set up. The R61F speed, with venturi, says it is set up for max hp at 17k. That seems odd to me, what application is it aimed for?

Some of the .15's and esp .21's are insane by comparison. This one especially: [link=http://www.novarossi.it/eng/products/engines/rex/plane/specs.php?name=R%20PLUS%20217/FT&display=public]NovaRossi .21[/link] I want one but am scared to look at the price.

Break out the 5" props for this .12: [link=http://www.novarossi.it/eng/products/engines/rex/plane/specs.php?name=REF.12&display=public].12[/link]

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Old 10-07-2012, 04:08 PM
  #61
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

After all these years I've never heard of any "car specific" engines being used in model planes.
Some engines are dual purpose, but they aren't very hot for either application.
I had a Picco .21 many years ago that looked bigger and heavier than my .35 control line engines. It sure ran like it didn't have any load at all in a RC "Indy" type car.
I bought the whole set up with tons of spares for $350, found out that there wasn't any place around here that was big enough and smooth enough to run that car for 2 seconds in any direction, then sold it for $350 with a little regret I never tried that engine with a control line speedster.
LF will need to explain what the deal is with the $230 NR60.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:56 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

I have no idea what kind of shaft load that .21 would need to run up in the mid '30's, but since an F2D .15 will spin a 6-3.5 to 6-4 up in the low '30's I'd have to guess not a lot more than that. With that kind of frontal area I doubt smaller than 6" would be of much use.

I still don't get what a venturi equipped .60 timed for 17k peak power (stock) would be used for except AMA free flight, which I don't exactly think is NovaRossi's target market. Guys flying F3S are running 25k or more with their OPS, Picco, and OS engines.
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

If it was a control line engine...they wouldn't make much money selling 3 of those per year...
lfinney must have the low down on this .......

Some engines in years past had aftermarket hop up parts made by guys who where mainly competitors in C/L Speed, Combat and I think Free Flight. So an engine like this NR60 could have something like that going on. The trouble is, by the time you bought every available part for the old Fox Combat Specials you basically were just using the original case. There were even titanium bolts offered to replace the grade 8 steel hardware that held the prop. K&B had at least one guy who sold upgrade parts to destroke the .40 to .36 for AMA class rulebook events.

Back to the .21 car engine..there is / was a C/L Speed event for that size engine IIRC..so perhaps car specific engines have been flown..?
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:55 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

planethobby.com currently has the 61 rear exhaust at 249$ this engine as sold is very popular for ballistic pattern planes sucha s the new dirty birdy and phoenix arfs etc, the swapping of a cylinder and piston is simple, merely enlarging the intake and high timed sleeve is 90 percent of the effort..fitting is the other 10 percent

proto 21 speed is dominated by the novarossi 21 its the simple 3 port version, for speed apparently the 3 ports work just fine, very durable, and stable.

the novarossi 61 can use standard rossi 10Mm carbs etc same shaft size and threads as well has same bolt pattern and spacing as OS and Rossi and Jett engines, so swapping engines are dead simple.

the Novarossi 21 is dominant in tether cars as well, so all sort of pipes and head buttons etc are available.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:48 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

Thanks for the info lfinney..!

Would the NR61's crankshaft need to be drilled out too....?



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Old 10-07-2012, 08:54 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil


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ORIGINAL: combatpigg

SpeedBoy, I'm very happy to help you in any way I can. You are obviously a very talented young man who will go on to great accomplishments. Just remember me someday once you become a corporate sponsored pilot for Futaba, Nova Rossi, etc...I'd like to be part of your crew.!
The intake closing on front intake high rpm, limited load engines is set for 60 degrees ATDC....IIRC. Instead of taking my word for that, you would be better off going to the North American Speed Society website and find out where the forum is where all the control line speed gurus are hanging out. These guys keep good records about what all the winning combinations of speed mods that have already been done. I refer to their knowledge before working on anything that I don't know about.
Combatpigg , thanks for you kind words and toughts , to be a sponsored pilot from any brand would be a dream , if that miracle happen you will be the first one to be on my crew of course .

I think I need to make a "dive" into American Speed Society and learn all I can , thanks for the tip.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:20 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil


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ORIGINAL: airraptor

As much as pig and i dont get along my engine guy and myself use much of the same techniques for modding engines. i think your 17,000 with the 10x7 is low and should be able to pull a bit more out with some work. the last engine i did was a Aviastar 53 from sig for 60 dollars. i set it up to run on the jett muffler and it would pull the 10x7 APC at the same 17,000. it took a bit of work to get it there. it took three engines to get it to this point. I would think you would have a a bit better flying plane with a jett 56LX and a 9x8 or 9x9 prop with the same speed as the 60 picco.

open up the carb, put two chamfers on the case where the crank hole is near the carb, square off the corners of the crank fuel mix entry to help get more air flow, raise the exhaust timing slowly (5 degrees or .005'') at a time. also look at widening the exhaust port also if narrow, look to get the squish down to .016-.022 range. the transfers like to be around .050 for every 10mm of stroke difference than the exhaust (lower) to match up well on the jett mufflers. now if you cant reach that number by raising the exhaust and going to go past 180 degrees then you need to lower the sleeve. do this by machining the sleeve down some of machine the case down. now with all of these cuts and machining you need to make sure you Do Not get any sub porting very bad on a tuned muffler/pipe set up. use a bright LED flashlight to check this as you go. a quick way to check crank timing is to use the four back plate bolts as a guide. The bolt holes are 180 out and usually the crank opens and closes on the bolt hole at 7 o clock and 1 o clock while looking at the crank pin. with any cut or machining you doing do it in small amounts then run the engine again to see where your at. DO NOT MAKE A BUNCH OF CUTS then run it until you gain experience. i am still new and modding engines only 5 yrs and still make mistakes lol. one thing on compression look at your oil color on the plane/test stand. Clear oil means the compression or nitro can be raised, light brown to brown is just about right. Brown to dark brown is to high or lower nitro. black is tearing the engine up. lol
also there is 500-1000 rpm to be had in most of the grey APC props. look hard at the props under a good light and feel the ''edges'' with your fingers and you will see where to improve them.
Yep , I agree with you airraptor , the 17,000 rpm seem low , probably because of the pipe I used was too short , the fuel wasn't the better ( I think it contains much humidity ) and it wasn't tuned , I'll make some changes ( written above) and see what can I have of it , then , if nothing magical happens , I'll start slow and calm making the job timming , considering what combatpigg and you have explaining on here , wich I consider is very interesting and I really appreciate it.

Probably with the jett 56 would be ok , but I obtained this engine for less than the half the 56 costs , plus I thought this engine was much more powerful than the jett.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:52 PM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

lfinney , do you know if the set sleeve/piston you have attached would fit on the Picco fire I have and if the timming it has would be able to move a 9x10 prop at serious RPM or if its intended for a lighter load???
I think it is just for car engines but I better ask.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

i am sure it will fit your engine, and with pipe at right length turn the 9 inch props...these sleeve piston setups in the tether cars are run on FAI fuel.so setting the deck height for 15-25 percent nitro is simple, and yields more torque as well i would use the 190 degree or 185 degree timings with the nine inch props. measuring your engines case and forwarding that to the guys selling the setups is simple , i have several picco 60's that are rear exhaust and several that are 80s as well as one picco 80 ducted fan engine, other than bore in case parts interchange easily.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:55 AM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

give me a day or two and i will measure the crank bore on the novarossi 61 for you, the euro guys run both front intake with venturi, and some run the crank plugged with a cut down ops drum intake on the rear.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:10 AM
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!! this is very exciting....

Thanks for the info lfnney.

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Old 10-08-2012, 12:39 PM
  #72
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil


Quote:
ORIGINAL: lfinney

give me a day or two and i will measure the crank bore on the novarossi 61 for you, the euro guys run both front intake with venturi, and some run the crank plugged with a cut down ops drum intake on the rear.
How do they drive the rear intake? Do they press a pin into the crankpin?
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:07 PM
  #73
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

yes drill hole then press pin, for our needs i think that a venturi with remote needle driven by servo would get us beyond the 200 mark.

if anyone needs the ama safety style prop nut in 8x1.25 pm me i have them cheap i bought a box of 100
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:56 PM
  #74
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

Well here are some pics of my new SHRIKE on the board.

Mods include:

Nose shortened by 1.5" and spinner size reduced to 2" diameter. The fuselage has also been reduced in height by 3/8" top and bottom 3/4" total.

As you can see I have now incorporated 3/8" diameter CF tubes for the spars and you can see the new ribs in the picture that have been reduced in height by 40% from the original.

This is not a "balls out" effort but an attempt to see how the SHRIKE will perform in this configuration comparred to stock. If this works out well I will take it another step and do another build with more mods.

Oh yes....engine is a "tweaked" K/B 6.5 series II Q500 with mini pipe.
Should run in the 20K range on a prepped Rev-Up 8.625D x 7.0P . Nice thing about the K/B "metrics" is that I can drop in a tweaked 7.5cc if wanted.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:01 PM
  #75
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Default RE: Shrike 40 with thinner airfoil

If you look at the nose of the model you can see where I filled the slots for the old firewall locations and how far I have moved it back.
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