Tim Redelman

My Feedback: (36)

Hey Joe. Try the extra head shim. I did on mine and it stopped burning plugs and ran great. Order the gasket kit I think its called Part Number EVO060416. Has a new head shim and back cover gasket. I don't know the culmination of the two measurement wise but it worked for me. Also the Hanger nine #3 high performance plugs work good too. Part number HAN3020 Hope this helps.

Tim Redelman

KLXMASTER14

What Tim said. It has been my experience so far with the Chinese engines that the compression is a bit too high. Shim it and your problem will go away.

-Robert

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

Mark,

All I did was observe the relationship between the spinner and the spinner ring, and assumed the spinner ring was set up for the proper thrust. I am adjusting the thrust angle by inserting washers behind the mount to allow the spinner to align with the spinner ring.

Danny

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

Numbers for the Evo 60NX with Jett Stream muffler:

APC 10x6,16,900 RPM
APC 10x8, 15,200 RPM
APC 11x615,300 RPM

Powermaster 15% Blend

Have not run with the stock muffler. The 10x8 may be a little quieter because of the smaller diameter. But not quiet. The 10x6 was used for break-in slightly rich. RPM figures shown were peak. And quite loud! All these are peak numbers during the break-n process. The engine has not been in the air yet.

Energyman

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

The spinner has a gap of 1/8 inch on the left side of the engine between the spinner and spinner ringand 1/16 inch on the right. I have not made an angular measurement, just visual. Excessive being subjective at this point. I have corrected the problem with washers behind the mount. I will fly the plane and determine if additional adjustment is necessary.

Energyman

JoeMamma

Thanks for the info on the shim kit Tim. It's worth a try. I'll give Horizon a call tommorow.

I'm really not familiar with Hangar 9 plugs. I also couldn't find any heat-range info at the Horizon website. When I order my shim kit I'll pick up a couple of the HAN3020's.

I did happen to find a heat-range chart for O.S. plugs. Their #10 plug is a colder replacement for their #8 plug. Supposed to be used in .60 or larger engines. I'll pick up a couple of these also.

Looks like I have some experimenting to do !!

Joe M.

JoeMamma

To Tim Redelman or KLXMASTER14 or any Hangar 9/Horizon Hobby people reading this thread:

I'm looking for a starting point for the addition of the shim(s) on the .60NX. I called Horizon and ordered a pair of HAN3020 performance glow plugs, an EVO 060112 cylinder head shim set and an EVO 060416 cylinder head gasket set. When I called, I asked the gal if she had any tech. info. for the shim kit......she said no. She then kicked me over to a tech line where I asked for a starting point for the shims.........they didn't know either.

Got my parts today from Horizon. Pulled off the original/stock cyl. head and found two .004" head gaskets (or one gasket and one shim ?).

The new EVO 060112 cylinder head shim set contained three .004" shims.

The new EVO 060416 cylinder head gasket set contained two .004" gaskets (shims ?) and a back cover gasket.

I know I'm going to have to use at least two shims as a replacement, but what I don't know is how many additional shims should be stacked up ?

Joe M.

kaosfan

I would like to know the answer to this myself. My shim/gasket order should be here in the next couple of days. I ordered the exact same items as JoeMamma except I added two of the number nine ducted fan glow plugs (figured it might be worth a try). I have not taken the head off my engine yet.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Just try one additional shim at a time. If it continues to blow plugs, add another shim. It really is more of a trial and error then anything specific. I will say this, mine using the Macs tuned pipe and header at it's full length will blow plugs if set too lean. It really doesn't sound lean, but with the slightly high tank, in an outside maneuver it will go lean and pop the plug. My setup using a DuBro 16 ounce tank set against the firewall and as low as I can get it in the fuse will be a little burbly rich after take-off. Really just shows up on the bottom of inside maneuvers. But after a minute or two, that will clean up. At the end of the flight, it might begin to go a little lean on outsides.

One other thing, there is no need to run more then 15% nitro fuel. In fact, if you're popping plugs, drop down to 10% or even 5%. That will also save the plugs.

I have the shim sets ordered to try, but I haven't received them yet.

KLXMASTER14

Like Tony said, just add one at a time. .004" may not seem like much, but unless the stock set-up is way off, one shim will probably do it. Your mileage may vary.

-Robert

kaosfan

When I first installed the engine, it didn't want to line up properly. So I checked the engine mounts themselves and they were not flat on their edges. When I squeezed them together at the front, a gap appeared at the rear. When I squeezed them together in the middle, gaps appeared at front and back. Then the rear faces didn't sit level to my bench or the firewall either. Once I sanded the edges and tightened the bolts properly the engine and spinner lined up perfectly. Also, upon initial install I found that using longer temporary bolts helped when putting the mounts in.

Tim Redelman

My Feedback: (36)

I never even measured the shims just added the one in the described kit and it worked great. So I must have had three then??? I know this isn't a very scientific process but it worked for me. Ditto what Tony said about nitro content. 15% seems like overkill to me but sometimes you use what ya got . I used to use 5% back in the day as mom and dad weren't taking me on hobby shop spending sprees so I bought what was cheap and 5% was it. (cutting grass didn't pay what it does now apparently[)]. Also when I mounted the engine I didn't really proceed as the instructions said (didn't have any as mine was a preproduction kit/arf) But I have built another two or three now for friends and this is how I went about it. I first measured the firewall to spinner ring and added 1/16-3/32 to that. Then I zap/ca'd one of the mounts to the engine with the spinner backplate installed and used the measurement from above to position it. I then measured from the engine backplate to the firewall side of the engine mount and glued the other mount to the engine in the same position. Then I used a drill that fit the engine mount holes perfectly and just used it to dimple the mounting rails. then I popped off the mounts and drilled and tapped them for 6-32 socket head cap screws. Then I put the mounts in the plane and used my own screws to mount them with the blind nuts on the backside of the firewall with the blind-nuts on backwards. Then reinstalled the engine on the mounts. This way you can slide the mount up and down and get it positioned perfectly in the vertical plane and get the spinner to line up with the spinner ring nicely. I too encountered and bit of excess right thrust I believe it was on the planes I built too and will explain how I fixed it in a bit. Then after all was looking good I removed one bolt at a time and reinstalled the blind-nut the correct way and your good as gold. As for the offset the reason I used 1/16-3/32 for the spinner gap was so I could CAREFULLY touch the mount still mounted to the engine on my belt sander and carefully remove some material from the appropriate side of the mount to correct the offset and make the spinner align with the spinner ring. This also helped the above warped engine mounts and trued them nicely for the firewall. Of course with this method you could get things way outta shape but if you take your time you can achieve excellent results. I have also installed the 16oz. tank per Tony's suggestion and am eager to try that out on the most recent build for another modeler. Hope this helps all working on this great model and I hope the folks at H.H. put out more classic pattern arf's in the future! A big THANK YOU to Mike McConville for a superb airplane that makes me smile every time I start that tuned piped engine. What a blast from the past for sure.

Tim Redelman.

JoeMamma

Tony, Robert and Tim,

Thanks for the replies about the shims.

My particular .60NX was very tight when new, so after following this entire thread and seeing some of these .60 NX's had blown up or come apart, I was concerned.

The first time I fired it up it was probably about 45 degrees outside, so I used a heat gun to pre-heat the cylinder head for the initial start up.

I have used the following procedure for all of my ringless 2-strokes: I fired her up and then adjusted the high speed needle for max rpm. I ran the engine for about 5 seconds at max rpm, left the throttle wide open and then adjusted the high speed needle to drop the rpm by about 600.

I continue to run the engine at wide open throttle at this 600 rpm drop for about 5 seconds, then back to max, then back to my 600 rpm drop. I ran through about 3/4 of a tank before shutting down the engine, never letting the tank run empty.

Now I let her cool down and go through the same procedure one more time. Now as far as I'm concerned, she's ready to fly !

One thing nice; she's getting looser each time I fly her.

I'm going to start off by adding one shim and try her out again today.

Joe M.

smacfe

No offense, but this is exactly the way to kill an ABC or ABN (ringless) motor. The worst thing you can do is lean out a newly started engine. Please look at Dub Jett's site for instructions on how to break in an engine like this. Dub has forgotten more about these engines than any of us will ever know. It makes a huge difference in the power and longevity of a motor that is broken in properly the way that Dubby suggests.

http://www.jettengineering.com/

here is a link to the break in article :

http://www.jettengineering.com/tech/break-in.doc

Tim Redelman

My Feedback: (36)

thread killer......


Just kidding of course.

Tim

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Danny, I did the same as I did end up using to #8 washers on the engine mounts to square it up. The motor isstillslightly placedleft (not adjustable at the firewall)in reference to the nose, not a big deal as I believe it's negligible with regards to the thrust line but I'll likely put ashim under theengine's mounting ears. Thought I had it all licked last night until I tried the retract position valve (B&D in place of the Rhom Air) so more cussing tonight and tomorrow! But it's almost there.
hook

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

Hook,

After I had the thrust set correctly with the washer, I removed the mount and measured the thickness of the washer, scribed a line on the back of both mounts and sanded the correct angle. This allows the back of the mounts to be flush with the firewall with the correct thrust angle.

Also, I called Horizon regarding where the hardwood blocks are installed for the nosegear. The instructions were not clear to me. They told me to install the blocks between the rails and the gear. This results in the nosegear assembly and part of the nosewheel sticking out below the fuselage. I am using the e-flite retracts. This also provides a slightly positive incidence when the plane sits on the ground. When I placed the nosegear temporarily in place without the blocks, and the nosewheel as low as I could get it before it would interefere with the wing when retracted, the plane has about 3/16" negative incidence when sitting on the ground.

Has anyone else discovered this. I am curious where other folks have installed these blocks, or if they are really necessary. Todd Blose has a Phoenix and they installed the nosegear retract flush with the rails and the incidence difference is visible, but he has no problem with smooth takeoffs.

Danny

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

Tony,

Thanks for the advice regarding the Du-Bro 16 ounce tank. Todd Blose and I have been flying the Phoenix and both of us have been having the lean issue in the outside maneuvers. The problem is really noticeable in the figure M when throttling up for the second half. We have both been using the stock tanks and Jett mufflers. I have installed the Du-Bro and will try it this weekend. The Du-Bro fits in the rear crutch of the nose gear assembly very well. However, since the crutch is about 1/4" above the rails, the rear of the tank is slightly higher than the front of the tank. I hope this is not a part of the leaning problem. I have not figured a good way to get a dremel in the fuselage to grind the crutch flush with the rails.

We have both experienced some blown plugs, but I think as you mentioned, the mixture isset too lean and the outside manevers pop the plug. We are running Powermaster 15% and I have head shims available if the problem persists. Thanks again.

Danny

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Danny,
I did the same, except I moved the engine mounting holes a bit aft (because of the excessive nose/backplategap) on a new Sig mountand forgot that I did so. So my spinner backplate/nose spacing is a tad tight (maybe 1/64!). So I'm back to the H9 mount, I have some heavy aluminum tape that should work fine as a shim, I'll apply it to the back of the motor mounts.
I'm using Rhom Air retracts. I took the supplied blocks and epoxied them in width to length, then another 1/4" laminate epoxied over that. I wanted more surface to surface glue area than what was presented. I don't know about the incidence on the gear yet, but inverted on the bench it looks okay, it'll be on the ground tomorrow as I plan to do a first run on the Kraft engine.
I have a Dubro 16 oz in there too, I put some foam sponge in the front for it to set on; I'm not sure I want to take any material off of that crutch, well little if any. I've been running Cool Power 10%, but I'll be running a 10% home made soup in the P-7.
Mark

stuntflyr

I have a high tank in my Tiporare and am installing the lowest profile I can find. Then I rotated the cork so that the pick-up tube is inline with the centerline of the side mounted engine. Nearly to the bottom of the opening.
The way I always did it was to make the pick-up line inline with the carb, where the fuel is located high or low within the tank didn't seem to matter with a clunk tank.
Chris...

pitstop000

My Feedback: (26)

Anyone tried a Uniflow fuel setup or a Tettra bladder tank for the issue or a Fuel regulator yet?

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

After all my cussin and fussin, I took the P-7 out in the back last night and awakened a 30+ year old Kraft .61 on 10% home brewed. Might have pi$$ed off the neigbor that usually does it to me, (hah!). The look of a P-7 running at half throttle and smelling that castor wassweet , seeing it on the flight ine will be sweet as it can get. No pipe so far, not sure if I'll have time to set that up. Only gave the air pump about 8 pumps so I have to be sure the Rhoms,tank, lines, fittings, etc.are all good and don't leak, but I did get four strong cycles out of that. No weight yet, but a good WAG says about 7 1/4 to 7 1/2. Going to run another tank full before I let the engine loose. Hope to maiden tomorrow or over the weekend. Sweetness!

.

Jim Oliver

My Feedback: (1)

Hook,

I'll be sitting here, waiting for a full report! Inquiring minds want to know. Prop/rpm, weight and all that other stuff.

Jiim

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Roger that Jim!

Update on Kraft engine break in:
Ran three and one half tanks through the Kraft (previously ithas had a few full tanks run through it), not quite half a gallon. Very nice, reliable, low idle at about 2780 rpm, smooth transition to mid range (about 5800 rpm), and I'm seeing 11,550 at WOT. This is about 200 rpm or rich of peak, three clicks in and she drops off to about 11,375. This is with a used11x7 APC prop, stock Kraft muffler, old K&B idle barplug, andhome brewed 10% with 20% oil (50/50 castor/synth). This is not bad at all, but I'd like to push it to 12K or a bit more with more runnin. At 11,550 on this prop that equates to about 76mph, likely more when the prop unloads. I plan to use a Zinger 11x7 1/2 or 7 3/4 which should push it into the mid 80mph range unloaded.
Even with the Dubro it's obvious the tank is high, but I use a set of hemostats for both lines (only on ther carb line for starting) when resting. Starting was too easy, the guys at the field were impressed (two, maybe three flips and it's running). Need to replace the rudder servo as the nuetral was changing between high and low rate (Fut 3152), the Rhoms seem to be holding PSI well enough, so the plan is to maiden her tonight (I was invited as a quest to a great field with a paved runway). Will let you know....

5/20 Maiden Flight Update:
I maidenedthe P-7 lastnight at the FVAC field, courtesy of a few members there. She was a tad nerve wracking on the first flight (or else my nerves just don't react as fast anymore), but with a few extra thumbs and index fingers (not mine)she was trimmed out hands (make that hand) off after a several minutes. Needed a fair amount of left aileron trim (mine has a very warped left aileron), and a touchy elevator. I didn't weigh her (did we ever???? weigh em???, but 7 1/2lbs is my bet) and CG per the plans she's a tad nose heavy,but I can live with that. That danged Kraft .61 hauled her around with some nice authority too(Zinger 11x7 wide blade, 10% N, 20% castor/synthoil, I'll leave the pipe off for now). A bit of left pull on a 45 upline and noticable in the loops, have to work that out, knife edge is okay so far. The2nd flight was muchmore relaxing and I excercised the gear, the Rhom Airs didits job well; and Imade the asphalt on both landings! Now to get the routine down.
hook

PS: Anyone recall what types of oilsare okay to use in the Rhom Airs? I believe airtool is fine and what used to be used in the old Freon systems.Thanks.

lfinney

My Feedback: (44)

if you switch to a non idle bar plug you will be much happier and gain some top end rpms as well mcoy mc59, kb-1L, merlin 2003hd