Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
07-06-2013, 11:02 AM
#127
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
So far, this thread is going the same direction as most HK threads. It starts with someone saying how great HK is and how much money they save. Either that or how terrible their experience is. On the plus side, All the info is presented to make HK look like the end all. On the flip side, a polarized view is presented and the next thing we see is that NOBODY can simply state a single opinion, it becomes a free for all on who can discredit the other party with the most resounding shot. It's even worse if a thread is started with a negative tone, the defenders flock to the thread like flies on fresh dog crap and the ensuing fray starts to look like a gang war. People keep bickering back and forth determined to "one up" each other.
As an observer of human behavior, what tends to be the case is that pissed off people can be the most vocal because they feel like they have been wronged. Happy people are nowhere near as vocal as those that are pissed off UNLESS there is an underlying thread of emotional involvement. Yes, that means if you are very happy, you will tell your story. If someone doesn't agree and you don't have a dog in the fight, it usually ends with "if that works for you, great!". What make most people suspicious is when a happy person constantly keeps battling everyone else's opinion to prove that their happiness is how everyone else should be and if you are unhappy, there is an alterior motive. That is the BS push that coincidently is what shills do. A shill will never admit to being a shill or their own credibility is lost..... And people just won't do that. There is also the type of person that simply posts their pedantic banter to impress everyone else on how much they know and that you should accept their guidance and buy from their choice of vender and products.
Since nobody on the internet can seem to stand letting another person have their say and the perceived last word, it all becomes the same stupid pissing match where the product pushers bash the dissenting opinions and the dissenting opinion generators bash the pushers. Who wins? Neither. However....... It sure makes the product pushers stand out as such. Many times those with negative opinions do actually have some positive comments, the pushers never seem to do that, it's always presented through rose colored glasses. The self absorbed will never look in the mirror and see their own issues, much to the dismay of the masses. In reality, it's not even comical. It makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with people. Evidently, there must be comfort in tearing down others and that points to a whole different set of issues.
As an observer of human behavior, what tends to be the case is that pissed off people can be the most vocal because they feel like they have been wronged. Happy people are nowhere near as vocal as those that are pissed off UNLESS there is an underlying thread of emotional involvement. Yes, that means if you are very happy, you will tell your story. If someone doesn't agree and you don't have a dog in the fight, it usually ends with "if that works for you, great!". What make most people suspicious is when a happy person constantly keeps battling everyone else's opinion to prove that their happiness is how everyone else should be and if you are unhappy, there is an alterior motive. That is the BS push that coincidently is what shills do. A shill will never admit to being a shill or their own credibility is lost..... And people just won't do that. There is also the type of person that simply posts their pedantic banter to impress everyone else on how much they know and that you should accept their guidance and buy from their choice of vender and products.
Since nobody on the internet can seem to stand letting another person have their say and the perceived last word, it all becomes the same stupid pissing match where the product pushers bash the dissenting opinions and the dissenting opinion generators bash the pushers. Who wins? Neither. However....... It sure makes the product pushers stand out as such. Many times those with negative opinions do actually have some positive comments, the pushers never seem to do that, it's always presented through rose colored glasses. The self absorbed will never look in the mirror and see their own issues, much to the dismay of the masses. In reality, it's not even comical. It makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with people. Evidently, there must be comfort in tearing down others and that points to a whole different set of issues.
07-08-2013, 01:06 AM
#128
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: topspin
Five bucks just to make a point. So what? I don't buy anything from them that I want or need, I just bought a couple of small connectors (that I already had by the way) to make a point. There is no way anyone gets anything from the Hong Kong warehouse to the US in under 14 days so the I guess they lied huh.
Five bucks just to make a point. So what? I don't buy anything from them that I want or need, I just bought a couple of small connectors (that I already had by the way) to make a point. There is no way anyone gets anything from the Hong Kong warehouse to the US in under 14 days so the I guess they lied huh.
What was your point? That paying the cheapest form of shipping can take several weeks?
Most people already know that..
There you go accusing people of lying again when you have absolutely NOProof they lied..
Have you tried paying for faster Shipping to the USA?
How can you PROVE that there is NOWAYANYONEGETSANYTHING in under 14 days based on your so called "Test" when you used the cheapest form of shipping?
There is NO way you could know exactly how long EVERYsingle order from HK to the USA has taken.. unless you are actually a HK employee yourself?
Sweeping statements like that and calling people liars without any real proof is pointless.
07-08-2013, 01:14 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Joe 1320
So far, this thread is going the same direction as most HK threads. It starts with someone saying how great HK is and how much money they save. Either that or how terrible their experience is. On the plus side, All the info is presented to make HK look like the end all. On the flip side, a polarized view is presented and the next thing we see is that NOBODY can simply state a single opinion, it becomes a free for all on who can discredit the other party with the most resounding shot. It's even worse if a thread is started with a negative tone, the defenders flock to the thread like flies on fresh dog crap and the ensuing fray starts to look like a gang war. People keep bickering back and forth determined to "one up" each other.
As an observer of human behavior, what tends to be the case is that pissed off people can be the most vocal because they feel like they have been wronged. Happy people are nowhere near as vocal as those that are pissed off UNLESS there is an underlying thread of emotional involvement. Yes, that means if you are very happy, you will tell your story. If someone doesn't agree and you don't have a dog in the fight, it usually ends with "if that works for you, great!". What make most people suspicious is when a happy person constantly keeps battling everyone else's opinion to prove that their happiness is how everyone else should be and if you are unhappy, there is an alterior motive. That is the BS push that coincidently is what shills do. A shill will never admit to being a shill or their own credibility is lost..... And people just won't do that. There is also the type of person that simply posts their pedantic banter to impress everyone else on how much they know and that you should accept their guidance and buy from their choice of vender and products.
Since nobody on the internet can seem to stand letting another person have their say and the perceived last word, it all becomes the same stupid pissing match where the product pushers bash the dissenting opinions and the dissenting opinion generators bash the pushers. Who wins? Neither. However....... It sure makes the product pushers stand out as such. Many times those with negative opinions do actually have some positive comments, the pushers never seem to do that, it's always presented through rose colored glasses. The self absorbed will never look in the mirror and see their own issues, much to the dismay of the masses. In reality, it's not even comical. It makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with people. Evidently, there must be comfort in tearing down others and that points to a whole different set of issues.
So far, this thread is going the same direction as most HK threads. It starts with someone saying how great HK is and how much money they save. Either that or how terrible their experience is. On the plus side, All the info is presented to make HK look like the end all. On the flip side, a polarized view is presented and the next thing we see is that NOBODY can simply state a single opinion, it becomes a free for all on who can discredit the other party with the most resounding shot. It's even worse if a thread is started with a negative tone, the defenders flock to the thread like flies on fresh dog crap and the ensuing fray starts to look like a gang war. People keep bickering back and forth determined to "one up" each other.
As an observer of human behavior, what tends to be the case is that pissed off people can be the most vocal because they feel like they have been wronged. Happy people are nowhere near as vocal as those that are pissed off UNLESS there is an underlying thread of emotional involvement. Yes, that means if you are very happy, you will tell your story. If someone doesn't agree and you don't have a dog in the fight, it usually ends with "if that works for you, great!". What make most people suspicious is when a happy person constantly keeps battling everyone else's opinion to prove that their happiness is how everyone else should be and if you are unhappy, there is an alterior motive. That is the BS push that coincidently is what shills do. A shill will never admit to being a shill or their own credibility is lost..... And people just won't do that. There is also the type of person that simply posts their pedantic banter to impress everyone else on how much they know and that you should accept their guidance and buy from their choice of vender and products.
Since nobody on the internet can seem to stand letting another person have their say and the perceived last word, it all becomes the same stupid pissing match where the product pushers bash the dissenting opinions and the dissenting opinion generators bash the pushers. Who wins? Neither. However....... It sure makes the product pushers stand out as such. Many times those with negative opinions do actually have some positive comments, the pushers never seem to do that, it's always presented through rose colored glasses. The self absorbed will never look in the mirror and see their own issues, much to the dismay of the masses. In reality, it's not even comical. It makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with people. Evidently, there must be comfort in tearing down others and that points to a whole different set of issues.
PS.. its spelled Ulterior.
07-08-2013, 01:43 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: countilaw
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
Remember HK also distribute the brand name products.. JR, Futaba radios and JR and Gaui Helicopters, these are not knock offs, they are the Real deal..
I bought the HK Spitfire for $69. A local Hobbyshop had the Art Tech Spitfire on sale for $369 - I had a careful look inside the box at the shop and it was IDENTICAL to mine.. the only difference was the battery connector plug.. a Deans.
I am as ethical as the next guy but be my guest if you want to pay an extra $300 for a deans connector.
And another interesting observation on your example.. Yes, in "Theory" the Hitech servo should be better than the HK servos.. if cost is the only indicator..
But reality in one of my Helicopters proved different.. my most flown Heli is now up to 1400 flights.. It has hitech servos on collective @ $30 each. It has a $24 Turnigy servo on the tail (from HK)
The 3 hitechs needed replacing after about 600 flights due to jittering, the HK servo on the tail (the hardest working servo on a Helicopter) is still original and going strong.
But I will be fair and say that I also bought some of the cheapest Servos that HK sell.. (From the Caringbah Storefront in Sydney) I only needed these servos to make a video for a friend on YT and didn't want to wait until I was home the following day Said Video below..
These servos are absolutely rubbish, weak and inaccurate, the gears stripped easily when I held the servo to feel the torque.. i would never use those servos in a plane or Helicopter..
I bought them knowing I would never use them except for making that video..
But I have bought lots of excellent servos that work great from HK also by researching and reading the product reviews.
Yes, there is some junk on HK just like any other store, department store, clothing store and classifieds.. So be smart, and don't be silly enough to buy items that others reveiw as junk. Buy items with 5 star reviews and lots of good feedback.. At least HK gives you that facility to help research each item they sell. and publicly post product reviews good or bad., where most other stores don't.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH-EiOGBb9c[/youtube]
07-08-2013, 01:50 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: topspin
You just may have hit on one of those undeniable facts Frank.
ORIGINAL: countilaw
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
You just may have hit on one of those undeniable facts Frank.
How is your example different to posting any two different TX's? They all have 2 gimbals and short aerials these days..
I would never buy that TX because of the colour, but I use several of the Orange receivers, Futaba and Spektrum varieties and they work great..
Try comparing a genuine Align 450 Heli vs a HK Heli, then you will see how closely they have cloned the Align product.. you even use the genuine Align manual to construct the HK helicopters. The parts are 100% interchangable
I'm not saying its ethical.. probably far from it, but if its not illegal to buy a cheap knock off, I will happily save my $$ and pay 20% cost for 90% of the quality.. (I am referring to only the HK Helicopters here, because I have experience with them)
I can't comment on things I have never bought.. doing so would be silly and unethical.
07-08-2013, 02:38 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: topspin
+1 Joe, they screwed me one time too many and will never get another dime from me.
ORIGINAL: Joe 1320
I could care less what someone else's experience with Hobbyking might be. For me, I spent thousands over the years with them starting back when it was an ebay shop, then though several names including hobby city and finally Hobbyking. There was a time that their service was reasonable. When dealing with overseas, one can expect a 3 week trip. It might get there a little sooner, but doubtful. If you are in close proximity, something like Australia, it makes sense that you might get it a little sooner. I occasionally ran into problems with what was received in an order, but things were handled quickly. As time moved on, customer service from Hobbyking became laughable. Now, you have to jump though a fair amount of hoops, which even that can almost be expected. What you don't expect is stupid stuff like not refunding immediately when an order is cancelled. What is not acceptable is dragging out a warranty process for months. What is not acceptable is having to wait more than paypal's limit of an extremely generous 45 day window to get what you ordered or file a claim against the vender. Some of the chat sessions are an exercise in utter frustration as hobbyking's policy appears to be ''once we have your money, we will take our sweet time in doing anything''. Chat sessions and complaints get close with a ''problem solved'' comment when the problems hasn't been solved. Some of these chat session scripts look like a ''who is on first?'' Comedy routine. It's simply unbelievable.
What makes things laughable is when people get on these forums and spout out nothing but propaganda to make hobbyking look like god's gift to the rc world and that hobbyking gets thousands of orders per day and everyone's order arrives perfect, customer service bends over backwards, and all sorts of utter BS like wait for hobbyking to take months to make things right. the reality is that After years of minor problems with hobbyking where issued were addressed quickly, the problems started to increase. When it got to the point that they were sending me defective products and blowing me off, also dragging their feet for weeks to refund on cancelled orders, and needing several paypal interventions to get resolutions, hobbyking will never get anther dime from me. Hobbyking service just plain sucks now and don't let anyone fool you. It is all a roll of the dice. If you don't have a problem, lucky you. When you do end up with an issue, a root canal takes less time and involves less pain than dealing with their ''customer service'' reps.
I see what their mode of operation is, they think the public is stupid and that they will put up with anything because of cheap prices. Well.... They are right because there are people that get screwed, smile and say how great it is to get screwed, and line up to do it all over again. Some are in that boat because of location. If you are much closer to them, it's a whole lot cheaper on the shipping than getting it half way around the globe. You still have to deal with their crap.
It doesn't have to be that way. Most items CAN be purchased elsewhere for similar pricing. The catch is.... YOU have to do the searching rather than just click on one site where everything is listed for you.
I could care less what someone else's experience with Hobbyking might be. For me, I spent thousands over the years with them starting back when it was an ebay shop, then though several names including hobby city and finally Hobbyking. There was a time that their service was reasonable. When dealing with overseas, one can expect a 3 week trip. It might get there a little sooner, but doubtful. If you are in close proximity, something like Australia, it makes sense that you might get it a little sooner. I occasionally ran into problems with what was received in an order, but things were handled quickly. As time moved on, customer service from Hobbyking became laughable. Now, you have to jump though a fair amount of hoops, which even that can almost be expected. What you don't expect is stupid stuff like not refunding immediately when an order is cancelled. What is not acceptable is dragging out a warranty process for months. What is not acceptable is having to wait more than paypal's limit of an extremely generous 45 day window to get what you ordered or file a claim against the vender. Some of the chat sessions are an exercise in utter frustration as hobbyking's policy appears to be ''once we have your money, we will take our sweet time in doing anything''. Chat sessions and complaints get close with a ''problem solved'' comment when the problems hasn't been solved. Some of these chat session scripts look like a ''who is on first?'' Comedy routine. It's simply unbelievable.
What makes things laughable is when people get on these forums and spout out nothing but propaganda to make hobbyking look like god's gift to the rc world and that hobbyking gets thousands of orders per day and everyone's order arrives perfect, customer service bends over backwards, and all sorts of utter BS like wait for hobbyking to take months to make things right. the reality is that After years of minor problems with hobbyking where issued were addressed quickly, the problems started to increase. When it got to the point that they were sending me defective products and blowing me off, also dragging their feet for weeks to refund on cancelled orders, and needing several paypal interventions to get resolutions, hobbyking will never get anther dime from me. Hobbyking service just plain sucks now and don't let anyone fool you. It is all a roll of the dice. If you don't have a problem, lucky you. When you do end up with an issue, a root canal takes less time and involves less pain than dealing with their ''customer service'' reps.
I see what their mode of operation is, they think the public is stupid and that they will put up with anything because of cheap prices. Well.... They are right because there are people that get screwed, smile and say how great it is to get screwed, and line up to do it all over again. Some are in that boat because of location. If you are much closer to them, it's a whole lot cheaper on the shipping than getting it half way around the globe. You still have to deal with their crap.
It doesn't have to be that way. Most items CAN be purchased elsewhere for similar pricing. The catch is.... YOU have to do the searching rather than just click on one site where everything is listed for you.
If you were getting screwed why did you keep buying from them?
Seriously, if you got screwed please post exactly how they screwed you.. what items you purchased from HK and why you felt screwed when they arrived. Be specifc please.
07-08-2013, 02:56 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: countilaw
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
You are suggesting that if we open a HK and a Hitech servo they will be different inside? How does that example prove your point?
If I open a JR, a Hitech and a Futaba servo I will also see a difference inside. So please clarify the point of your example.
07-08-2013, 03:12 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
07-08-2013, 03:21 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Joe 1320
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
My first reply to you was actually tongue in cheek.
I thought an observer of human nature would see it that way..
Sorry that you thought I was trying to Provoke or discredit you.. That was absolutely not the case.. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2043305AABC4ny
07-08-2013, 04:13 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Rob2160
Edit.. Nah.. I thought of having a bit of fun with you but that wouldn't be fair..
My first reply to you was actually tounge in cheek. I thought an observer of human nature would see it that way.. Sorry that you thought I was trying to Provoke or discredit you.. That was absolutely not the case..
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2043305AABC4ny
ORIGINAL: Joe 1320
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
My first reply to you was actually tounge in cheek. I thought an observer of human nature would see it that way.. Sorry that you thought I was trying to Provoke or discredit you.. That was absolutely not the case..
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2043305AABC4ny
Sounds like trolling, that is exactly what I saw you doing to others and I had it pegged.
Thanks for the confirmation and the confession.
07-08-2013, 04:17 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Joe 1320
So you were going to have a little fun with me?
Sounds like trolling, that is exactly what I saw you doing to others and I had it pegged.
Thanks for the confirmation and the confession.
ORIGINAL: Rob2160
Edit.. Nah.. I thought of having a bit of fun with you but that wouldn't be fair..
My first reply to you was actually tounge in cheek. I thought an observer of human nature would see it that way.. Sorry that you thought I was trying to Provoke or discredit you.. That was absolutely not the case..
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2043305AABC4ny
ORIGINAL: Joe 1320
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
Dear oh dear, rob....Lol...you don't read and comprehend do you? I got screwed and stopped buying. That is pretty clear. You can also quite trying to provoke or discredit as your credibility is the one in question, not mine. Attempting to pick apart any of my statements will get you nowhere. Pick on someone else.
My first reply to you was actually tounge in cheek. I thought an observer of human nature would see it that way.. Sorry that you thought I was trying to Provoke or discredit you.. That was absolutely not the case..
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2043305AABC4ny
Sounds like trolling, that is exactly what I saw you doing to others and I had it pegged.
Thanks for the confirmation and the confession.
There is a huge gap between trolling and having a debate based on differences of opinion..
If you consider I am trolling simply by posting my own 100% true experiences. What can I say.. anyway thanks for the contribution. Safe flying
07-08-2013, 02:41 PM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Rob2160
Is that your example? I see two radios that bear no resemblance to each other... even the menu system is completely different.
How is your example different to posting any two different TX's? They all have 2 gimbals and short aerials these days..
I would never buy that TX because of the colour, but I use several of the Orange receivers, Futaba and Spektrum varieties and they work great..
Try comparing a genuine Align 450 Heli vs a HK Heli, then you will see how closely they have cloned the Align product.. you even use the genuine Align manual to construct the HK helicopters. The parts are 100% interchangable
I'm not saying its ethical.. probably far from it, but if its not illegal to buy a cheap knock off, I will happily save my $$ and pay 20% cost for 90% of the quality.. (I am referring to only the HK Helicopters here, because I have experience with them)
I can't comment on things I have never bought.. doing so would be silly and unethical.
ORIGINAL: topspin
You just may have hit on one of those undeniable facts Frank.
ORIGINAL: countilaw
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
you must face it and it can't be denied, MOST HK products are cheap knock offs of other quality products. If you don't believe me open a Hitec servo and one of HK's and you will see a difference.
You just may have hit on one of those undeniable facts Frank.
How is your example different to posting any two different TX's? They all have 2 gimbals and short aerials these days..
I would never buy that TX because of the colour, but I use several of the Orange receivers, Futaba and Spektrum varieties and they work great..
Try comparing a genuine Align 450 Heli vs a HK Heli, then you will see how closely they have cloned the Align product.. you even use the genuine Align manual to construct the HK helicopters. The parts are 100% interchangable
I'm not saying its ethical.. probably far from it, but if its not illegal to buy a cheap knock off, I will happily save my $$ and pay 20% cost for 90% of the quality.. (I am referring to only the HK Helicopters here, because I have experience with them)
I can't comment on things I have never bought.. doing so would be silly and unethical.
I hate to admit it, but ol' topspin finally, incredibly, made a point with this radio comparison (and I'm not sure he even realizes how or why he did
).They are not similar cosmetically, nor in programming, as you note,
but the orange one does transmit in DSM2, as does the Spektrum.
And since DSM2 is proprietary to Spektrum, and highly doubtful they sold rights to HK to clone it,
it would seem to be a "rip-off". Of course, there are several other outfits also cloning Spektrum, Futaba, and Hitec receivers at least, but hey,
let's chalk one up for topspin.
You know what they say about blind squirrels...
07-08-2013, 05:32 PM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: 804
Well, Rob,
I hate to admit it, but ol' topspin finally, incredibly, made a point with this radio comparison (and I'm not sure he even realizes how or why he did).
They are not similar cosmetically, nor in programming, as you note,
but the orange one does transmit in DSM2, as does the Spektrum.
And since DSM2 is proprietary to Spektrum, and highly doubtful they sold rights to HK to clone it,
it would seem to be a "rip-off". Of course, there are several other outfits also cloning Spektrum, Futaba, and Hitec receivers at least, but hey,
let's chalk one up for topspin.
You know what they say about blind squirrels...
Well, Rob,
I hate to admit it, but ol' topspin finally, incredibly, made a point with this radio comparison (and I'm not sure he even realizes how or why he did
).They are not similar cosmetically, nor in programming, as you note,
but the orange one does transmit in DSM2, as does the Spektrum.
And since DSM2 is proprietary to Spektrum, and highly doubtful they sold rights to HK to clone it,
it would seem to be a "rip-off". Of course, there are several other outfits also cloning Spektrum, Futaba, and Hitec receivers at least, but hey,
let's chalk one up for topspin.
You know what they say about blind squirrels...
I'm sure others know more about it but in just 30 mins of research I read that the original DSM2 Patent wasn't strong enough to prevent "compatible clones"
Edit... I found the US Patent for DSM2 here..
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...0&RS=7,391,320
Perhaps true for Futaba FASST protocol also.
http://rctruth.com/index.php?topic=744.0
So it appears no laws are being broken by Orange in makng these products.
I am happy to stand corrected and would be very interested to learn more about what Horizon did or are doing about it .
Go to China and you will find multitudes of "cloned" products, IE watches and Handbags, knock offs of the brand names.. Most of the watches I saw were junk but some of the Handbags are perfect $300 copies of a $10,000 original.. They have different ideas about copyright for sure!
If it is simply a question of ethics, sure, I 100% agree it is wrong to knock off intellectual property. But nobody is breaking the law by buying and using these Orange receivers.
I note on the HK website the following about the Orange DSM2 RX
1) This is not a Spektrum receiver, nor is it a copy of a Spektrum Receiver.
The Spektrum brand is a trademark of Horizon Hobbies USA.
and Futaba
NOTE* This is not a Futaba receiver, nor is it a copy of a Futaba receiver.
Futaba and FASST are trademarks of Futaba Co (JP).
I think the next generation of RC modellers will have no issue with copyright.. every teenager I know has an Iphone full of "copied" songs and a hard drive full of downloaded movies . And that is illegal.
I guess if the critics are right and HK is so terrible, then they will be out of business in a few years..
Current evidence of their growth suggests otherwise.
Here is a great review about the Orange TX. In 1992 a mobile phone cost over $3000, now you can buy something far superior for $50.
In 1980 my Kraft 7C was top of the line and cost me $700 - why should we doubt in 2013 that a $70 Transmitter can be far superior to the Kraft?
Dave Herbert is a well respected RC modeller and states in his review that the Orange TX is great quality.. He used to build radios in the 70s and 80s, if something was Junk I am sure he would say so..
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWaHnNLA5lg[/youtube]
My own radios below.. 2 of each, one for fixed wing and the other for Helis because I like very different stick tension for each.
07-08-2013, 05:48 PM
#140
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
07-09-2013, 09:14 AM
#141
RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Rob2160
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
Can't win so now you'll start making excuses.
and if you had the experience to open a Hobby Krap servo, you would see the lack in workmanship and quality control of the knock off servos. One BIG mistake is that the wires to the circuit board are unsupported and tend to vibrate until they break. Quality servos will have the wires from the connector supported so the solder joint doesn't vibrate. Therefore they don't break and last a lot longer than a cheap Hobby Krap servo.
But you keep up your charade and we will all continue to be amused.
Frank
07-09-2013, 09:39 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
Quote
Dave Herbert is a well respected RC modeller and states in his review that the Orange TX is great quality.. He used to build radios in the 70s and 80s, if something was Junk I am sure he would say so..
[/quote]
I think he invented dual rates and thats why Phil Kraft brought him out to Chula Vista to work on the Kraft signature series. Kraft was long gone when I was in So Cal so I went to work for Futaba.
I've only flown the T-six once but I really like the back light screen and ease of programming over the DX6I. My current Spektrum line up is JR 783, 8103 and 9303 with DM9 1 and 2 piece modules, no model match but I like the options on them.
Rob that is a pretty impressive TX line up.
Dave Herbert is a well respected RC modeller and states in his review that the Orange TX is great quality.. He used to build radios in the 70s and 80s, if something was Junk I am sure he would say so..
[/quote]
I think he invented dual rates and thats why Phil Kraft brought him out to Chula Vista to work on the Kraft signature series. Kraft was long gone when I was in So Cal so I went to work for Futaba.
I've only flown the T-six once but I really like the back light screen and ease of programming over the DX6I. My current Spektrum line up is JR 783, 8103 and 9303 with DM9 1 and 2 piece modules, no model match but I like the options on them.
Rob that is a pretty impressive TX line up.
07-09-2013, 04:01 PM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Tony Iannucelli
Countilaw and Topspin have serious ongoing issues with Hobby King which is their right and observations. I'm the opposite; my experiences with them have been great. If I need something fast, I pay the higher shipping and get the stuff in 7-10 days. If I'm not in a hurry, I go el cheapo and it does take 2-3 weeks to get to Florida.
Make no mistake, buying from Tower, Hobby Lobby, Horizon, etc, is not 'buying American'. It's buying Chinese, via an American based company. I buy from all of them. When I'm really in a hurry I go to the LHS and pay double + gas and time. But I get the stuff right away.
Countilaw and Topspin have serious ongoing issues with Hobby King which is their right and observations. I'm the opposite; my experiences with them have been great. If I need something fast, I pay the higher shipping and get the stuff in 7-10 days. If I'm not in a hurry, I go el cheapo and it does take 2-3 weeks to get to Florida.
Make no mistake, buying from Tower, Hobby Lobby, Horizon, etc, is not 'buying American'. It's buying Chinese, via an American based company. I buy from all of them. When I'm really in a hurry I go to the LHS and pay double + gas and time. But I get the stuff right away.
Even product engineering is beingoutsourced, in the new economy.
China, has in fact, begun to develop their own brand names and proprietary systems.
But, after our American real estate debacle and susequent mortgage collapse, who can really blame the Chinese for not investing in our American economy?
We don't want your cancer....
07-09-2013, 06:27 PM
#144
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: countilaw
Can't win so now you'll start making excuses.
and if you had the experience to open a Hobby Krap servo, you would see the lack in workmanship and quality control of the knock off servos. One BIG mistake is that the wires to the circuit board are unsupported and tend to vibrate until they break. Quality servos will have the wires from the connector supported so the solder joint doesn't vibrate. Therefore they don't break and last a lot longer than a cheap Hobby Krap servo.
But you keep up your charade and we will all continue to be amused.
Frank
ORIGINAL: Rob2160
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
Can't win so now you'll start making excuses.
and if you had the experience to open a Hobby Krap servo, you would see the lack in workmanship and quality control of the knock off servos. One BIG mistake is that the wires to the circuit board are unsupported and tend to vibrate until they break. Quality servos will have the wires from the connector supported so the solder joint doesn't vibrate. Therefore they don't break and last a lot longer than a cheap Hobby Krap servo.
But you keep up your charade and we will all continue to be amused.
Frank
you do realise HK also sells genuine Hitec and Futaba servos don't you? I assume these are the ones you are referring to as "Quality Servos"
What makes you say I dont have the experience to open a servo? Are you sure about that?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFan0kDSR0[/youtube]
How many have you opened up yourself? or are you just "polly parroting" things you heard at the club?
When I get home tonight I'll make a video opening a servoI bought from HK so we can all see how accurate your information is.
Hobby Krap? Really Frank... how old are you?
07-10-2013, 02:56 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
As promised, In response to Frank's comment... Here is a video opening up a Hitec Servo and two servos I bought from Hobbyking.
I'll let the video speak for itself..
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPJUL939Nr0[/youtube]
07-10-2013, 06:28 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: ssautter
But, after our American real estate debacle and susequent mortgage collapse, who can really blame the Chinese for not investing in our American economy?
We don't want your cancer....
But, after our American real estate debacle and susequent mortgage collapse, who can really blame the Chinese for not investing in our American economy?
We don't want your cancer....
In 2012 Hawker Beechcraft went bankrupt and ceased all Jet production..
I was back doing annual training at Wichita Flight Safety the same year and visited Hobbytown USA. One of the sales people there was an ex Learjet Aeronautical Engineer who told me he had been laid off 6 months earlier and was now earning $3 an hour selling RC products..
Minimum wage in Australia is $16 an hour and those people think they are doing it tough.
Truly sorry to see the tough times you are going through over there..
07-10-2013, 07:17 AM
#147
RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
Since minimum is $7.25 in Kansas,,, I would doubt he was an Aeronautical engineer either, maybe a Sanitation Engineer. I stopped believing what some LHS guys tell me long ago.. If they're so so smart,, why are they working in a Hobby Shop for chump change?
juss sayin
juss sayin
07-10-2013, 11:21 AM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
I will order products from Hobby King every once in a while just to check the quality in hopes that I can find a good deal on something for my hobby shop. I discovered that batteries and electronics are not something that I can order and receive the same quality order after order. My latest example arrived about 3 weeks ago. I ordered a set of 4S 5000mAh Zippy batteries because I needed a certain size to fit in my application. I needed about 10 batteries but I decided to only order 2 at a time in case they weren't the right size or DOA. The order took 3 weeks to arrive by standard shipping and when I received the batteries, one was the correct size but the other was substantially larger. In addition, one battery read 3.81 - 3.83 on all cells but the smaller battery was 3.54 on one cell. Since the one battery was too large to fit in my application and I use an 8S system, I put them aside for now. Maybe I will run them in another plane and test the quality for report back here.
The issue that I have with Chinese products is not so much the design, but the quality control. We used to import a lot of motors, ESCs and batteries (numbering in the thousands). I can tell you from experience that we always had at least a 15% failure rate on the best quality products we could find. We tested each item before it left our facility and tossed the defective ones. To open one servo, visually inspect it and say it is comparable to another servos is very misleading at best. You really can't make a servo comparison (or any comparison) without testing random lots for quality in assembly and materials. Visually inspecting one servo doesn't really tell anyone anything except that your servo looks pretty on the inside and works for you. Now if someone were to document 10,000 flights, running different servos from different batches every 200 flights, that would be much more compelling. I have run Hitec servos on just about everything I own for the past 13 years and I can't make the claim of never having a bad servo. I have had a few bad servos over the years for whatever reason. I continue to purchase them because their quality control is excellent and their service is even better. In my opinion, they are a trustworthy company when it comes to designing and manufacturing servos. It took me 13 years to be able to establish that opinion and feel comfortable stating it in a public forum. I find it a little suspect when someone comes onto a forum and states that some no brand name servo that's been on the market for a year or so is comparible to a Futaba, JR or Hitec servo in quality and performance, when I have experienced the exact opposite.
The issue that I have with Chinese products is not so much the design, but the quality control. We used to import a lot of motors, ESCs and batteries (numbering in the thousands). I can tell you from experience that we always had at least a 15% failure rate on the best quality products we could find. We tested each item before it left our facility and tossed the defective ones. To open one servo, visually inspect it and say it is comparable to another servos is very misleading at best. You really can't make a servo comparison (or any comparison) without testing random lots for quality in assembly and materials. Visually inspecting one servo doesn't really tell anyone anything except that your servo looks pretty on the inside and works for you. Now if someone were to document 10,000 flights, running different servos from different batches every 200 flights, that would be much more compelling. I have run Hitec servos on just about everything I own for the past 13 years and I can't make the claim of never having a bad servo. I have had a few bad servos over the years for whatever reason. I continue to purchase them because their quality control is excellent and their service is even better. In my opinion, they are a trustworthy company when it comes to designing and manufacturing servos. It took me 13 years to be able to establish that opinion and feel comfortable stating it in a public forum. I find it a little suspect when someone comes onto a forum and states that some no brand name servo that's been on the market for a year or so is comparible to a Futaba, JR or Hitec servo in quality and performance, when I have experienced the exact opposite.
07-10-2013, 04:21 PM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: Rob2160
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
I just watched this video.. explains why people in the USA seem to have more bad experiences with HK support.
Time zones.. People in China are asleep during USA Business hours.
The aircraft I fly use navigation software and databases from companies in the USA. Same with our Ipad flight planning software.
If you call them for support during Australian Business hours it is a pointless exercise.
Call during USA business hours and support is great..
Nobody wants to work the night shift..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh7xhKJvr7A
Pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptj2ButKQxQ
That's odd, Iwould think they could answer e-mail at any time, such as when they are awake...
07-10-2013, 06:54 PM
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RE: Thumbs Up for Hobbyking Support
ORIGINAL: w0mbat
I will order products from Hobby King every once in a while just to check the quality in hopes that I can find a good deal on something for my hobby shop. I discovered that batteries and electronics are not something that I can order and receive the same quality order after order. My latest example arrived about 3 weeks ago. I ordered a set of 4S 5000mAh Zippy batteries because I needed a certain size to fit in my application. I needed about 10 batteries but I decided to only order 2 at a time in case they weren't the right size or DOA. The order took 3 weeks to arrive by standard shipping and when I received the batteries, one was the correct size but the other was substantially larger. In addition, one battery read 3.81 - 3.83 on all cells but the smaller battery was 3.54 on one cell. Since the one battery was too large to fit in my application and I use an 8S system, I put them aside for now. Maybe I will run them in another plane and test the quality for report back here.
The issue that I have with Chinese products is not so much the design, but the quality control. We used to import a lot of motors, ESCs and batteries (numbering in the thousands). I can tell you from experience that we always had at least a 15% failure rate on the best quality products we could find. We tested each item before it left our facility and tossed the defective ones. To open one servo, visually inspect it and say it is comparable to another servos is very misleading at best. You really can't make a servo comparison (or any comparison) without testing random lots for quality in assembly and materials. Visually inspecting one servo doesn't really tell anyone anything except that your servo looks pretty on the inside and works for you. Now if someone were to document 10,000 flights, running different servos from different batches every 200 flights, that would be much more compelling. I have run Hitec servos on just about everything I own for the past 13 years and I can't make the claim of never having a bad servo. I have had a few bad servos over the years for whatever reason. I continue to purchase them because their quality control is excellent and their service is even better. In my opinion, they are a trustworthy company when it comes to designing and manufacturing servos. It took me 13 years to be able to establish that opinion and feel comfortable stating it in a public forum. I find it a little suspect when someone comes onto a forum and states that some no brand name servo that's been on the market for a year or so is comparible to a Futaba, JR or Hitec servo in quality and performance, when I have experienced the exact opposite.
I will order products from Hobby King every once in a while just to check the quality in hopes that I can find a good deal on something for my hobby shop. I discovered that batteries and electronics are not something that I can order and receive the same quality order after order. My latest example arrived about 3 weeks ago. I ordered a set of 4S 5000mAh Zippy batteries because I needed a certain size to fit in my application. I needed about 10 batteries but I decided to only order 2 at a time in case they weren't the right size or DOA. The order took 3 weeks to arrive by standard shipping and when I received the batteries, one was the correct size but the other was substantially larger. In addition, one battery read 3.81 - 3.83 on all cells but the smaller battery was 3.54 on one cell. Since the one battery was too large to fit in my application and I use an 8S system, I put them aside for now. Maybe I will run them in another plane and test the quality for report back here.
The issue that I have with Chinese products is not so much the design, but the quality control. We used to import a lot of motors, ESCs and batteries (numbering in the thousands). I can tell you from experience that we always had at least a 15% failure rate on the best quality products we could find. We tested each item before it left our facility and tossed the defective ones. To open one servo, visually inspect it and say it is comparable to another servos is very misleading at best. You really can't make a servo comparison (or any comparison) without testing random lots for quality in assembly and materials. Visually inspecting one servo doesn't really tell anyone anything except that your servo looks pretty on the inside and works for you. Now if someone were to document 10,000 flights, running different servos from different batches every 200 flights, that would be much more compelling. I have run Hitec servos on just about everything I own for the past 13 years and I can't make the claim of never having a bad servo. I have had a few bad servos over the years for whatever reason. I continue to purchase them because their quality control is excellent and their service is even better. In my opinion, they are a trustworthy company when it comes to designing and manufacturing servos. It took me 13 years to be able to establish that opinion and feel comfortable stating it in a public forum. I find it a little suspect when someone comes onto a forum and states that some no brand name servo that's been on the market for a year or so is comparible to a Futaba, JR or Hitec servo in quality and performance, when I have experienced the exact opposite.
I wish all hobby stores shared your level of ethics, very admirable sifting through the products and throwing away the junk.
And I 100% agree with you. My video only proves that the DS480 and the 261 HB servos from Hobbyking look nice inside and have proven to be reliable for me.
Your figure of 15% failure rate sounds reasonable. I imagine if I tried every single servo from HK I would probably reject around 50%
I never claim 100% of HK products are great.. That would be ridiculous. But I can claim the products I have from HK have been surprisingly reliable for the cost.
I don't have any issue if people say SOME HK products are junk because I am sure they are.
However I will challenge anyone who states that ALL HK products are JUNK because this is a ridiculous claim.
I have been in this hobby since 1978. I had AM radios on 29 Mhz until 1980. I lost one aircraft to "proven" interference which motivated me to upgrade to FM 40 Mhz.
Since then I have never lost an aircraft due to equipment failure. But I always stack the odds in my favour. Even as a 15 year old, I'd "coax" my younger brothers into helping with range checks, by walking across a park wiggling control sticks while I watched my models and noted servo behaviour. 1 KM was about average for the FM radios.
Before flying any new Transmitter I will.
- Test Battery life ( real time from a full charge)
- Conduct my own burn in check - leave the radio on for hours
- Real world range test (greater than 4km is typical for 2.4Ghz)
- Watch TV for at least 2 hours while constantly moving the gimbals to check for innaccuracies or reliability issues in the gimbals.
For a receiver I will.
- Do a burn in check
- Visually inspect internal soldering.
- Range test as above
- Test each aerial singularly to ensure it is working
- Conduct a ground vibration reliability test.
Same with Every servo -
I put it on a servo tester for at least 2 hours and if I detect a single jitter I will bin the servo..
Yes, I concur Hitec make excellent servos. I have them on my 550 size helis and they have been flawless.
In my profession as a Corporate pilot every single flight is subject to risk management and risk mitigation processes. Perhaps I am simply too pedantic but I apply the same philosophy to my RC flying and literally have not crashed an RC fixed wing aircraft since 1979.
I have watched RC modellers throw a plane together, no regard to Receiver placement, servo alignment, Connector solder quality, no range test, and "un" suprisingly they crash.
You also give a very good example about 10,000 flights testing different batches of servos.. Again a perfect example..
I can honestly say I have come "close" to that scenario..
For 3 years I was Perth based and my Job was essentially 24/7/365 Standby - effectively I had over 25 days free every month, but had to remain available on a 1 hour notice to move.
I literally spent 30 months of my life flying RC aircraft and Helicopters about 15-25 flights per day (some days much more), 25 days per month.. (yes Perth weather is that good!)
In response to a challenge from a friend overseas I flew 100 flights in a single day (all documented on youtube) Flt 78 here with the HK Spitfire...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47u2LonEE_Y
Do those numbers - Average 20 per day x 25 days x 30 months - That's 15,000 flights.. I was keeping a log book at one stage but stopped a year ago.
Since moving back to Sydney my flying rate has dropped signficantly, probably "only" 1000 flights in the past 12 months
The breakdown of those flights is approximately:
- [*]13 HK Helicopters with about 600 flights each (most is 1400 on one helicopter)[*]2 550 Gaul Helis - total about 700 flights.[*]1 HK Spitfire - about 1000 flights - no failures[*]several Parkzone Fixed wing aircraft - about 2500 flights combined[*]Numerous small BNF Helicopters - 3000 flights.[*]1 HK P 51 - 300 flights no failures[*]1 HK EDF - 150 flights no failures.[/list]In all this flying the ONLY failures I have experienced were tail motors on the small blade Helis, an aileron servo in a Parkzone Spitfire and the Hitec Hs65 Mg servos developing a jitter on one 450 Helicopter (regular pre flight inspections picked up all these faults before they resulted in a crash)
Of the 13 HK Helis, 8 of them have the DS480 Servo on the tail and they have always been 100% reliable for me.
Again, I agree that this proves nothing about any other servo that HK sells. But my statistics are good enough for me to challenge anyone who claims ALL HK products are junk.
I never claimed anyone else was lying when they say they had bad support from HK. but Geez guys, all I said was that I personally had ONE good experience..
My next comment is absolutely not directed at you w0mbat because it is obvious you are intelligent, balanced and reasonable.
From that one claim a bunch of clowns come on here and accuse me of being paid to lie for Hobbyking. Sure, Accuse me of being overly passionate about my hobby and trying to get my point across.. I won't deny that.. but don't call me a liar when you have absolutely no proof.
An "over zealous" servo test below....
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY5Uf3Y5GMI[/youtube]