Starting the BPA
01-11-2007, 01:52 PM
#301
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RE: Starting the BPA
I'm not taking shots at anybody here. Saying that, I watched and hoped with great anticipation on the SPA to revive the type of plane that I think most of us want. Then they decided to allow 91-4 strokes, and the participants naturally went with the advantage of more power. Now we have the BPA, and at first, I thought that this organization has the inspiration to restore the spirit of 70's and 80's pattern planes. In that vein, if you allow ANY engine except 10 cc's, then there will be no 10 cc's. We all know that any type of advantage in engine power will be the only engine that will be used, and BPA will be a one-engine, one-plane event. The non-turnaround planes were an ever-changing design and refining process to make the best flying qualities with only one restriction. 10 cc's. If the members of BPA decide to allow anything else, then the spirit of those types of planes will be lost. It is my hope that this is not the case. We all flew the same size engine, and it wasn't the flattest playing field, cause some people had better engines than others, but the fact was that maybe next year you would pony up an extra $50.00 or so and get a better engine. As I stated before, I don't want to piss anybody off, but if you want ballistic pattern planes of the 70's and 80's, there is only on place to start, and that is where tha AMA ended it all. 10 cc's.
Now just a little known fact. The average age of the AMA is 58! In a few years there will be nobody left that has even seen a true "old time pattern meet". The reason I proposed a novice class with no pipes or retracts is in hopes of gaining some younger or perhaps flyers that don't have, or want to aquire the typical plane, but want to join in the fun, and maybe next year, who knows. Maybe the most obvious question to ask."Is the BPA going to be set up for the enjoyment of flying non-turnaround pattern planes in similar formats of the time, or an all out killer type of competition where winning is the only thing that counts?" My hope is the former. I'll participate which ever way it goes, and I will have fun.
DAVE
Now just a little known fact. The average age of the AMA is 58! In a few years there will be nobody left that has even seen a true "old time pattern meet". The reason I proposed a novice class with no pipes or retracts is in hopes of gaining some younger or perhaps flyers that don't have, or want to aquire the typical plane, but want to join in the fun, and maybe next year, who knows. Maybe the most obvious question to ask."Is the BPA going to be set up for the enjoyment of flying non-turnaround pattern planes in similar formats of the time, or an all out killer type of competition where winning is the only thing that counts?" My hope is the former. I'll participate which ever way it goes, and I will have fun.
DAVE
01-11-2007, 03:01 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
the rules that will be used at the huntsville contest and the ones that will be posted on the web site will be out of a 1990-91 rule book I think that was the last year of non-turnaround ama through the masters class
Today is "Christmas" again! I'd written to AMA concerning a 1980 Rule book. After the holidays I received word that the closest they had was the one I got today.. 1982-83 Official Rule Book. Certainly appreciate the "Historian" allowing me to get the Old Rule Book in GREAT Shape.
IF you need any information from it, I will be happy to either SCAN it or type out the information for you.
I love the old "RIBBON" drawings and descriptions of the manuevers!
This is... JFYI
Tony
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BPA #2
01-11-2007, 05:59 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
Strange--I have the 82-83 RuleBook right here next to me. It's just so ratty, I didn't bother to mention it. I'm sure I have earlier years, if we can use them. It's just a matter of finding them.---Tom
01-11-2007, 06:55 PM
#305
RE: Starting the BPA
ORIGINAL: oldpatflr
I'm not taking shots at anybody here. Saying that, I watched and hoped with great anticipation on the SPA to revive the type of plane that I think most of us want. Then they decided to allow 91-4 strokes, and the participants naturally went with the advantage of more power. Now we have the BPA, and at first, I thought that this organization has the inspiration to restore the spirit of 70's and 80's pattern planes. In that vein, if you allow ANY engine except 10 cc's, then there will be no 10 cc's. We all know that any type of advantage in engine power will be the only engine that will be used, and BPA will be a one-engine, one-plane event. The non-turnaround planes were an ever-changing design and refining process to make the best flying qualities with only one restriction. 10 cc's. If the members of BPA decide to allow anything else, then the spirit of those types of planes will be lost. It is my hope that this is not the case. We all flew the same size engine, and it wasn't the flattest playing field, cause some people had better engines than others, but the fact was that maybe next year you would pony up an extra $50.00 or so and get a better engine. As I stated before, I don't want to piss anybody off, but if you want ballistic pattern planes of the 70's and 80's, there is only on place to start, and that is where tha AMA ended it all. 10 cc's.
Now just a little known fact. The average age of the AMA is 58! In a few years there will be nobody left that has even seen a true "old time pattern meet". The reason I proposed a novice class with no pipes or retracts is in hopes of gaining some younger or perhaps flyers that don't have, or want to aquire the typical plane, but want to join in the fun, and maybe next year, who knows. Maybe the most obvious question to ask."Is the BPA going to be set up for the enjoyment of flying non-turnaround pattern planes in similar formats of the time, or an all out killer type of competition where winning is the only thing that counts?" My hope is the former. I'll participate which ever way it goes, and I will have fun.
DAVE
I'm not taking shots at anybody here. Saying that, I watched and hoped with great anticipation on the SPA to revive the type of plane that I think most of us want. Then they decided to allow 91-4 strokes, and the participants naturally went with the advantage of more power. Now we have the BPA, and at first, I thought that this organization has the inspiration to restore the spirit of 70's and 80's pattern planes. In that vein, if you allow ANY engine except 10 cc's, then there will be no 10 cc's. We all know that any type of advantage in engine power will be the only engine that will be used, and BPA will be a one-engine, one-plane event. The non-turnaround planes were an ever-changing design and refining process to make the best flying qualities with only one restriction. 10 cc's. If the members of BPA decide to allow anything else, then the spirit of those types of planes will be lost. It is my hope that this is not the case. We all flew the same size engine, and it wasn't the flattest playing field, cause some people had better engines than others, but the fact was that maybe next year you would pony up an extra $50.00 or so and get a better engine. As I stated before, I don't want to piss anybody off, but if you want ballistic pattern planes of the 70's and 80's, there is only on place to start, and that is where tha AMA ended it all. 10 cc's.
Now just a little known fact. The average age of the AMA is 58! In a few years there will be nobody left that has even seen a true "old time pattern meet". The reason I proposed a novice class with no pipes or retracts is in hopes of gaining some younger or perhaps flyers that don't have, or want to aquire the typical plane, but want to join in the fun, and maybe next year, who knows. Maybe the most obvious question to ask."Is the BPA going to be set up for the enjoyment of flying non-turnaround pattern planes in similar formats of the time, or an all out killer type of competition where winning is the only thing that counts?" My hope is the former. I'll participate which ever way it goes, and I will have fun.
DAVE
01-11-2007, 08:23 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
Manufacterers simply don't make these engines anymore.. I'm running into this problem right now, as I'm looking for a rear exhaust 61 preferably with a pump. It's really tough to find one.
01-12-2007, 12:20 AM
#307
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RE: Starting the BPA
Stiletto,
The only two RE engines in current production that I am aware of, are the MVVS (which is under-square - 'long-stroke', and spins big props like 13x8, or 13x9 respectably) and the various Jett versions, which Bob Brassell mentioned, which are targeted at higher RPM and smaller 11" props, like pre-1981 .61 engines.
The 'long-stroke' isn't really, but its port timing does move the peaks down in the RPM band.
The bore is 23 mm and the stroke is 24, which is very close to 'square'.
The only two RE engines in current production that I am aware of, are the MVVS (which is under-square - 'long-stroke', and spins big props like 13x8, or 13x9 respectably) and the various Jett versions, which Bob Brassell mentioned, which are targeted at higher RPM and smaller 11" props, like pre-1981 .61 engines.
The 'long-stroke' isn't really, but its port timing does move the peaks down in the RPM band.
The bore is 23 mm and the stroke is 24, which is very close to 'square'.
01-12-2007, 08:08 AM
#308
RE: Starting the BPA
I think this engine issue is a red herring. I see NIB RE pumper engines on the RCU Market Place and eb*y all the time and they usually don’t sell for very much because of the limited market for them. Same thing for OS 61SF ABC-P engines but they seem to sell better. We are getting a group together to for a Performance Specialties production of OS 61 SF and RF liner and piston sets. So I expect long term availability of parts will not be a problem. We should consider the 10CC engine availability a non-issue.
01-12-2007, 09:02 AM
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RE: Starting the BPA
ORIGINAL: 8178
Amen! Why in the world would we not want just one simple rule? One rule “10CC engine limit”. There are all kinds of great 10CC engines available.
Amen! Why in the world would we not want just one simple rule? One rule “10CC engine limit”. There are all kinds of great 10CC engines available.
I couldn't agree more!
-Mike
01-12-2007, 09:36 AM
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RE: Starting the BPA
I am an outsider, let me be allowed to give a comment from that point of view:
Oldpatflr did put it right im my eyes. The classic fast pattern ship is a 10cc 2-stroke airplane. Nothin else, as long as the engine is limited to 10cc (and a pipe, of course).
Besides the MVVS 10cc rear exhaust (which will gladly turn 11x10.5 or 12x10 props) there are the great Webra .61 Racing F C with rear exhaust available new from factory. This Webra is the recently updated version, a classic short stroke with plenty of power and rpm, and very low weigth.
http://www.webra-austria.at/motor.ph...r=AERO&lang=EN
I have followed your discussion closely, I will never participate in a event, since I live in germany. Just my 10 cent!
Oldpatflr did put it right im my eyes. The classic fast pattern ship is a 10cc 2-stroke airplane. Nothin else, as long as the engine is limited to 10cc (and a pipe, of course).
Besides the MVVS 10cc rear exhaust (which will gladly turn 11x10.5 or 12x10 props) there are the great Webra .61 Racing F C with rear exhaust available new from factory. This Webra is the recently updated version, a classic short stroke with plenty of power and rpm, and very low weigth.
http://www.webra-austria.at/motor.ph...r=AERO&lang=EN
I have followed your discussion closely, I will never participate in a event, since I live in germany. Just my 10 cent!
01-12-2007, 09:50 AM
#312
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RE: Starting the BPA
ORIGINAL: MHester
Amen! Why in the world would we not want just one simple rule? One rule “20CC engine limit”. There are all kinds of great 20CC engines available.
Amen! Why in the world would we not want just one simple rule? One rule “20CC engine limit”. There are all kinds of great 20CC engines available.
Because the people in this thread want to get back 'down to earth', with the older, faster flying designs, not the large, expensive (!!!) current F3A models.
This is the whole point to the BPA; to get back to most of the previous rules.
Planes with 20 cc and larger engines will make the BPA no different than current F3A.
There was a Maxi Hester designing models for Hazel Sig (Sig Manufacturing), after Glen perished... Any connection?
01-12-2007, 09:52 AM
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RE: Starting the BPA
I do have a sense of humor. It's out there, but it exists.
I'm just trying to keep the tone light.
Now, one question Mike: Will you be at Huntsville in August with something to fly?
Cuz that's the bottom line, participation. I'm putting a .91 in my Curare. if I'm told it's illegal AFTER the Huntsville meet, then I'll make a decision whether or not to down size the engine or just do something else. Time is something I don't have a lot of. but this is one thing I'll be happy to devote some to. I just happen to disagree on the cap for various reasons. That main reason being if you open it up to larger engines, you have more options. I'm personally not too interested in being basically the ballistic branch of the SPA. I'd like to keep it pretty open and loose and let the competition decide what needs to be done....hence, we need a test contest.....and it's in August.
I wish I had a few more minutes to type a dissertation on why I think we need to open it a bit more, but I will leave you with one thought. One mistake the SPA made (although unintentional) was leave a gap of airplanes that had no use, that people liked. You all made a good point about the age factor...but it's in motion, not static. Therefore, with the limits you are proposing you're leaving out a lot of GREAT planes that were made in the 90s that even though designed for turnaround, are still VERY much ballistic. What do we plan to do when the day comes they get fired up too? Some are already here......
So, do you not believe you could beat a guy flying a Desire with a Jett 91LX with your Tipo? And if so/not, what does it really matter?
-Mike
I'm just trying to keep the tone light.
Now, one question Mike: Will you be at Huntsville in August with something to fly?
Cuz that's the bottom line, participation. I'm putting a .91 in my Curare. if I'm told it's illegal AFTER the Huntsville meet, then I'll make a decision whether or not to down size the engine or just do something else. Time is something I don't have a lot of. but this is one thing I'll be happy to devote some to. I just happen to disagree on the cap for various reasons. That main reason being if you open it up to larger engines, you have more options. I'm personally not too interested in being basically the ballistic branch of the SPA. I'd like to keep it pretty open and loose and let the competition decide what needs to be done....hence, we need a test contest.....and it's in August.
I wish I had a few more minutes to type a dissertation on why I think we need to open it a bit more, but I will leave you with one thought. One mistake the SPA made (although unintentional) was leave a gap of airplanes that had no use, that people liked. You all made a good point about the age factor...but it's in motion, not static. Therefore, with the limits you are proposing you're leaving out a lot of GREAT planes that were made in the 90s that even though designed for turnaround, are still VERY much ballistic. What do we plan to do when the day comes they get fired up too? Some are already here......
So, do you not believe you could beat a guy flying a Desire with a Jett 91LX with your Tipo? And if so/not, what does it really matter?
-Mike
01-12-2007, 10:11 AM
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RE: Starting the BPA
hey...I AM one of the people in this thread, and am not worried about larger more expensive F3A planes....I design/build/fly/sell them. I want to do this for fun, but I would rather not be hamstrung by a small engine rule. But, if that's the way it ends up, I'll work with it. I don't see exclusively everyone wanting a 10cc limit, just some...so "the people" in this thread have differing views on this. I don't recall having a vote just yet !!!!
And since I know what the rules are for the only actual contest for this, I'm building my plane accordingly. You guys build and fly what you want!
-Mike
And since I know what the rules are for the only actual contest for this, I'm building my plane accordingly. You guys build and fly what you want!
-Mike
01-12-2007, 01:26 PM
#315
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RE: Starting the BPA
Amen! Why in the world would we not want just one simple rule? One rule “10CC
engine limit”. There are all kinds of great 10CC engines available.
I with you on the Amen!
Even thought Gary’s contest is planed as a anything goes contest just to bring
almost likeminded flyers together, you can just about hear that click, click sound
of 30% nitro burning 120-4 strokes, smiling in your face, flying turnaround type
pattern planes, dominating click trying to form already. And if it does form (and
you know it will) you’ll see all of the 10 cc and below guys dropping out all over
again. You don't see the Texaco or Pylon guys trying to up the engine size.
Ron
engine limit”. There are all kinds of great 10CC engines available.
I with you on the Amen!
Even thought Gary’s contest is planed as a anything goes contest just to bring
almost likeminded flyers together, you can just about hear that click, click sound
of 30% nitro burning 120-4 strokes, smiling in your face, flying turnaround type
pattern planes, dominating click trying to form already. And if it does form (and
you know it will) you’ll see all of the 10 cc and below guys dropping out all over
again. You don't see the Texaco or Pylon guys trying to up the engine size.
Ron
01-12-2007, 04:13 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
Not limiting engines to 61 is the same as saying no retracts and pipes in SPA as far as I see it.
I am putting a Jettfire 90 in my new Curare to have fun and go really fast, but would swap it out for a 61 in a instant to stay true to the original designs of the 70's and 80's at a contest.
Just got a Skyglass Phoenix 5 fuse in brand new condition and when I build that plane, it will only get a 61.
Jeff
I am putting a Jettfire 90 in my new Curare to have fun and go really fast, but would swap it out for a 61 in a instant to stay true to the original designs of the 70's and 80's at a contest.
Just got a Skyglass Phoenix 5 fuse in brand new condition and when I build that plane, it will only get a 61.
Jeff
01-12-2007, 04:25 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
I'll have to second that Amen. I think it might be worthwhile to look back to the 79 or 80 Rule Book. It was a simple to understand set of Pattern Classes. Being, Novice, Advanced, Expert, and Masters. Retracts and a Piped .61 was the largest allowed.
If ya go back any further, oh say before 77 or so, ya get into the A, B, C, D and D (Expert) classes. If ya go to far into the 80's, you add Pre-Novice with the retract / pipe restriction. It would be just as easy to put that restriction on Novice only and leave the other three the same.
Let me sat something about "cliques." When I was a teenager just starting out in Pattern Contests, I almost decided against it. Their were a few who thumbed their nose at me. As if it were up to them if I would be accepted or not. Following my Fathers advice, I kept working at it. It wasn't long and those same few couldn't wait to be my friend. I was always polite after that, but I never forgot who they were.
If ya go back any further, oh say before 77 or so, ya get into the A, B, C, D and D (Expert) classes. If ya go to far into the 80's, you add Pre-Novice with the retract / pipe restriction. It would be just as easy to put that restriction on Novice only and leave the other three the same.
Let me sat something about "cliques." When I was a teenager just starting out in Pattern Contests, I almost decided against it. Their were a few who thumbed their nose at me. As if it were up to them if I would be accepted or not. Following my Fathers advice, I kept working at it. It wasn't long and those same few couldn't wait to be my friend. I was always polite after that, but I never forgot who they were.
01-12-2007, 07:59 PM
#318
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RE: Starting the BPA
I'll tell ya what.
I'm putting in a 90 sized 2 stroke engine in my plane. I'm going to fly it, and enjoy it. When I go to a BPA contest, if it's limited to .61, just don't say I can't fly it. Zero out every score I make, that's fine with me. Just don't tell me I can't fly it because my 2 stroke engine is "too big".
Then whatever happens, happens. You can hash this out all you want to, but at Gary's contest, I will be bringing a Curare with tricycle gear retracts and a 90 sized 2 stroke engine. I could care less whether or not it's "BPA legal" or what happens during the competition part....as long as I can fly it.
And I my vote would be, form the rules on the afternoon following the first contest. If anything is obvious and needs to be fixed, we can fix it right there. I'm not in favor of making any hard rules over the internet, voted on by somebody who may never actually leave the house. Not as far as the flying part goes.
With that, you know my opinion, I'm out....see ya in August [8D]
-Mike
I'm putting in a 90 sized 2 stroke engine in my plane. I'm going to fly it, and enjoy it. When I go to a BPA contest, if it's limited to .61, just don't say I can't fly it. Zero out every score I make, that's fine with me. Just don't tell me I can't fly it because my 2 stroke engine is "too big".
Then whatever happens, happens. You can hash this out all you want to, but at Gary's contest, I will be bringing a Curare with tricycle gear retracts and a 90 sized 2 stroke engine. I could care less whether or not it's "BPA legal" or what happens during the competition part....as long as I can fly it.
And I my vote would be, form the rules on the afternoon following the first contest. If anything is obvious and needs to be fixed, we can fix it right there. I'm not in favor of making any hard rules over the internet, voted on by somebody who may never actually leave the house. Not as far as the flying part goes.
With that, you know my opinion, I'm out....see ya in August [8D]
-Mike
01-12-2007, 08:53 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
Let me get this straight.
I can get a Jettfire 60Lx for $350 with out a pipe or a Supertiger 91 for $175 with a pipe and get rougly the same power ouput. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad idea?
I can get a Jettfire 60Lx for $350 with out a pipe or a Supertiger 91 for $175 with a pipe and get rougly the same power ouput. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad idea?
01-12-2007, 09:47 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
Ever actually run a Jett? They are really nice engines. the power is a good bit more than a Supertigre. Put 2 side by side and see for yourself.
But then again, just get a Supertigre .91 and have at it!! I don't think the power difference is all that large. It's a little different, and the Jett I think is a bit lighter...I could be wrong, haven't actually looked.
Doesn't matter though, if you tune them for what you want, you'll get it....
I had a TT 61 with a pipe once and it turned like crazy. I ran that cheap thing into the dirt for years. It was plenty!
if you want a real suprise, get an older Fox 60 Eagle 4...replace the carb, and prop it....you won't believe the tach [8D] It will turn a huge prop just as fast as a smaller one, it just doesn't care. It is pretty heavy though...and not exactly cheap like they were many years ago.
-Mike
But then again, just get a Supertigre .91 and have at it!! I don't think the power difference is all that large. It's a little different, and the Jett I think is a bit lighter...I could be wrong, haven't actually looked.
Doesn't matter though, if you tune them for what you want, you'll get it....
I had a TT 61 with a pipe once and it turned like crazy. I ran that cheap thing into the dirt for years. It was plenty!
if you want a real suprise, get an older Fox 60 Eagle 4...replace the carb, and prop it....you won't believe the tach [8D] It will turn a huge prop just as fast as a smaller one, it just doesn't care. It is pretty heavy though...and not exactly cheap like they were many years ago.
-Mike
01-12-2007, 09:48 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
ORIGINAL: rainedave
Don't you want people to think you're Mr. Moneybags? (Seriously, I use a cranberry juice bottle for a fuel jug because it fits on my $9.99 Tower field box.[X(])
Don't you want people to think you're Mr. Moneybags? (Seriously, I use a cranberry juice bottle for a fuel jug because it fits on my $9.99 Tower field box.[X(])
I doubt anybody in this crowd would care one way or another.....or would they? I would hope not.
-M
01-12-2007, 10:09 PM
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RE: Starting the BPA
I have not run a Jett engine. I hear they are the best new engines available at any price. I was just trying to make a point about being inclusive. If I can only afford a TH .61 and you show up with a Jett, I am bringing a knife to a gunfight. Plane and simple. Open up performance options for those with limited resources.
I have four kids; I make damn good money, but if I blow that kind of cash on two airframes (I am not going without a backup. LOL), someone won’t get new shoes for a while. LOL
At least if I can run a ST 91 against higher dollar engines I have a fighting chance. Supertigers are much cheaper and more plentiful than the classic powerplants that we all want. I am a little leary of used engines with "great compression" or "ran great last time I had it out". I would much rather buy a new engine that I know what has been done to it.
I have four kids; I make damn good money, but if I blow that kind of cash on two airframes (I am not going without a backup. LOL), someone won’t get new shoes for a while. LOL
At least if I can run a ST 91 against higher dollar engines I have a fighting chance. Supertigers are much cheaper and more plentiful than the classic powerplants that we all want. I am a little leary of used engines with "great compression" or "ran great last time I had it out". I would much rather buy a new engine that I know what has been done to it.