OLDPATFLYER

I would like to make one more point. Those of us who flew the non-turnaround were used to the limits, and kinda want to use this format in this revival effort. But we know technology never ends, and progress moves us foward.
However, for the people who want to open things up, would you be happy with your own class? How about an UNLIMITED class just for any engine over 10 cc's. I think those in favor could hammer this idea out to come up with a sequence and upper limit of plane size and engine so we can all be friends again. I can feel the love now. I personally would love to see what a "Tipo" would be like on a super YS flame-thrower, or a modern 4-stroke stump puller. Those who would host an event would only have to add one class.

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I thought the purpose of the BPA was to revive old style AMA pattern competition but it's
already changing to "let's make the planes bigger and the engines bigger" . Well if that's
what everone wants why not fly what we already have, believe me if flown wide open a
2 meter ship is plenty fast. I'm losing interest already.

tommy s

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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There is a saying that has been used in books and movies during my life time. I'm paraphrasing, but it is, "You can never go home again".

When I returned from military service, I went back to my previous hometown. It wasn't the same. The most important reason that it wasn't the same was that I was different, not to mention the changes that had occurred to my home town while I was gone. I'm beginning to see the same thing occurring here. It will never be the same, regardless of the rules chosen. We are different.

Does this mean that we should give up? That is up to every individual. I still think it is worth pursueing, but my expectations have changed.


Ed Cregger

jquid

No engine size is not "Open" open. A .60 size ship is just that a .60 size ship. A .40 size ship is a .40 size ship. Those are the classes I am referring to. So if you take a .60 size ship with a .91 in it so what? A .40 size ship with a .46 or .52 same thing. Is someone going to take a giant scale Curare and want to fly it in a .60 class? I do not think so, that is not the point of this association. We are looking to have a association tht is "geared" (up) towards the older pattern planes, pipes and retracts. You can fly the current expensive black magics and such on other events correct? You can fly SPA planes in SPA events correct? You cannot fly within those parameters with a Tipo. Our core is the ballistic ships of the past, but due to changes and advances in equipment, we must make some exceptions. Remember this is for FUN! Get together to fly, BS about planes, cars, family, and helping your fellow modeler out. It is about comaraderie in a forgotten/not yet organized part of the sport.

The BPA is a good idea and I do not want to see it turn into somethign it is not intended to be. It is about pipes and retracts, not electric Brio's, or 1/4 scale pattern planes. But you know what if you got em' bring them to a meet. You just cannot compete in a .60 size class with a 7 foot scaled up typhoon. I would like to see someone do that personally, but you cannot fly it against a .60 tipo and expect it to mean anything.

Airframe size is airframe size, no matter what you put in the nose, that is the limit - classes.

Again my .02

Jeff BPA #1

RCBuilder42yrs

Ed,

I tend to agree with your assesment of the "BPA" as it is being bantered about here in "CYBER PATTERN", and certainly as you mentioned, we have all changed. #1 Ed, I'm not 30 yrs OLD any more, I'm not 200 lbs of Solid Muscle like I used to be, I need glasses to read these post, but the one thing that I have always been a believer in......play by the rules.

Gary has graciously agreed to have a Contest in Huntsville,AL. He has established "The RULES" for his contest. If you are going be a player in BPA, then Show up at the contest and we can all fly what has been set forth as "RULES" for the contest. I personally join, with the thought, that I'm going to see some aircraft on the line, that I haven't seen in "YEARS" being flown by I hope some of the folks, that I haven't seen in years and I fully expect to see some "NEW" Designs, by those creative builders who are willing to bring a "NEW" mousetrap to this contest. I'm going to have FUN, this is my HOBBY not my vocation. Lastly, if I can "WOW" my peers with my T2AMK II or my BRUSHFIRE, then I will come home (Over 800 miles one-way for me) and I will have had a successful trip! ! IF by some wild chance, I happen to win a trophy, then all my BUDS here at home will never hear the end of it.... BUT I'm going to become a part of REVIVAL and as you mentioned "HomeComing"!

Then if we discover at that Contest "WE" need to make changes then we will have the "REAL" Players in BPA doing the Voting, election of officers, drafting of our Constitution, by-laws becoming a true Association. At present we are just communicating through this thread on RCu. The old Saying, "Talk to the Hand" comes to mind here, if your not going to be at the Contest. It is on the "Flight line" that contest are won and lost....not on the Keyboard. <BOSEG>

And as a final note to MHESTER:

My Dog's Bigger and Meaner than your Dog! ! !

Tony
BPA #2

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

WOOF!!!!!!

-Mikey [8D]

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

No rules should be set in stone after only one contest all the way out in Huntsville, Al. There should be at least one other contest on the east coast, too. Then, after a larger number of interested people have had the opportunity to participate, those who are legitimately involved can draw up the rules.

bob27s

My Feedback: (19)

good post....

point of note here, if you look at the older 1982ish pattern rules, there are aircraft size (weight) limitations. Worth taking a look at for those of you with the rulebooks

roncoleman

My Feedback: (14)

As stated before, some of us thought that the start of the BPA was to counter the SPA ruling on retracts and pipes because that’s how planes were flown back in that day and to be more competitive. Plus to up the design limits/cutoff year a bit to relive the old days of pattern as they use to be. Now we have a few (turnaround) guys who want to mix things up with larger aircraft and even lager engines so he can compete against big name so and so when most just want to fly old style pattern aircraft against whoever.

Some say there are no 61 engines to be found. I can come up with 10 or 12 manufactures of new 61 engines. Some talk about new technology and how things must move on. With today’s way of thinking and trying to build models a light as possible, most of the old designs will be lighter, as much as pound and a half lighter compared to models of the 70/80’s. Add that lighter weight, retracts and a piped 61 you may have an entirely different aircraft with better flying abilities.

As for coming to the gun fight with a knife (I like to think of it as coming to a gun fight with a six shooter and the other guy has a M-16), that’s the way it’s always been and the way it will always be. So if you get a 50 cal. to take out the M-16, the other guy will get a mini gun. There’s nothing wrong with flying within a budget as long as you are having fun flying and competing with old pattern planes, you won’t be alone. IMO from that one statement “coming to a gun fight with a knife� indicates how many may think/feel after one or two BPA contest if there is no engine size limit. Pattern flyer want-to-be with his LA 46 powered Tower Kaos 40 may/will get a bad taste for the BPA with all its Jett 91 powered planes buzzing about in all classes. That is if you/we really want this guy to give it a try at all. For those who want the lager planes and engines (and maybe the new
design and electric (if they fall into that class) aircraft), let there be an unlimited class for that purpose. The 61 engines should be the limit for all other classes (JMO).

Ed may have summed it up for me and maybe a few others
“my expectations have changed�
We may see a few BPA flyer walking up to the line calling takeoff, straight flight out , procedure turn, procedure turn complete, straight flight back in competition with himself.

11184 hits, 358 post mostly from the same few. I wonder what the others are thinking.

Ron

tommy s

My Feedback: (55)

I visited a local hobby shop during lunch time and counted four brand new .60 2-strokes and
probably a dozen or so used .60 2-strokes in his display cases. There are plenty of engines
available.

tommy s

mmattockx

Gentlemen,

A couple of observations from one far removed (geographically) from possibility of competing in a BPA event:


Here is a quote from jquid's first post on this thread:

Seems very clear to me that the intent was to recreate the ballistic era of pattern, with the screaming piped 10cc rocketships of the time. That said, I would think the way to achieve that would be to adopt the rules applicable at the time and fly the maneuvers of the time. Anything else will not get you there. It will get you somewhere else, but not back to the era Jeff clearly was looking for in his opening comments.

For the people that complain that money will give some people an unfair advantage, tell me a form of equipment based competition where it doesn't? This has been the case since time began and it isn't going to change now. Part of the appeal to SPA and BPA is that it is possible to build a competitive aircraft for much less than current 2M designs, but more money will always buy you better equipment, regardless.

I would say that copying the 1982(ish) rule book verbatim would be a good place to start and then fine tune to suit modern equipment differences after a contest or two.

My $0.02,
Mark

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

my girl friend has a 140lb. pitbull does that get into the (mine is bigger than yours catagory)!!!! although he is not meaner than yours possibly,he is just a big kid that would probably kill you with slobber!!!!!


gary

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

-----------------


You and Tony make an excellent point. The rules should be made by the competitors. I hope I can make it to Huntsville, though I'll probably spend most of the time in the airconditioned minivan. <G>


Ed Cregger

roncoleman

My Feedback: (14)

Sounds like the way to go. There's a club in Petersburg, Va. just off I-95 that would be a good location. Parking could be a problem. Or may someone in the TRC Va. club can line up Fentress again. This would be an outstanding place for a contest. What about the guys out west or are they waiting to see how things go in the east?

8178

My Feedback: (17)

Great idea Bob,

It would be great if we could get a scan of the rule book pages posted.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Good job people. These last several posts have been very productive. I've spoken with at least one other person here in NC who has expressed an interest in getting something organized in the Burlington/Greensboro area. NC can draw from PA to GA.

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

At rc/rc field in huntsville we have a airconditioned club house. The rule book I recieved by way of Jon Lowe via his father Don will be uploaded to the BPA web site in the next few days 90-91 is the year of the book I have, I recieved another photo copy of a book I think was 88-89 but it would not scan very well.WE the people that show at the contest in aug can use the clubhouse (airconditioned) for any type of BPA meeting needed that weekend.



gary

handglider

My Feedback: (23)

Hey guys,

well I've been lurking on this thread for a while. I guess it's my time to add a couple cents to this...

I support what Jeff proposed in the first post and I support the meet that Gary is putting together. I did the Huntsville AMA meet last year and plan on doing both the BPA and AMA meets at Huntsville this year. I am currently building a modified curare, full tilt boogie style - a screaming 2c, piped and retracts. I actually started a MAN Curare but scraped it for the MK version. I also have a super kaos that I am building.

I feel the rules that Gary has outlined are perfect and don't see any need to change or add to regarding airframe or engines. I own NIB OS 61 RF, YS 61 rf and a wonderful 20+ year old NIB Webra Speed 61 R ABC with Dynamix.

But I plan on running a Jett 91 for the huntsville meet.

The concern from some that this is going to turn into 2m ships running big YS engines just doesn't make much sense from my experience, I flew a Black Magic last season, with a DZ 140 and retracts, yea it was fast but in no way ballistic in the sense of a full tilt Curare on a pipe. Everybody at last years D3 champs saw me doing full throttle runway passes, I was maybe hitting 85 mph. Nothing like the speed I am planning with my Curare. Besides most all current 2m ships are outside of the rules that Gary is running. Besides that I am not going to risk exposure to possible midair with my 2m ships.

Everyone that I know who is planning on attending will be flying classic BPA ships. The Curare I am building will be modified/updated but will retain the classic Curare profile and will be actually closer to stock than some SPA ships I've seen. The pilots that I know want to fly the classic ships, or self designed ships in the same vein as the 60 class bpa ships that Jeff is talking about.

Let's not overwork the rules here, we could go on forever. It's Gary's meet and I think he is on the right track. Lets work together on this with the focus on organizing meets , and building and flying classic BPA planes.

regards to all,

and see you at Huntsville !

(insert jet sound here)

Dean

OLDPATFLYER

Just got a Rossi 60 se for the UFO I flew at 83 NATS. Took ST 60 out to put in newly built UFO tail-dragger. Will have to eat PB&J till next pension check comes. Really!
Anyway, time to be realistic. The term "classic" has been thrown around here. As I remember there were no 91's in pattern. Alot of people want more than a 60 in a "classic" plane. Problem with this is obvious, and I want to propose one last thing to see what you all think. No big changes except on your score card. If you are flying a 60, then your card says "60 size" at the top and you are scored against all the other 60s. If it says "Unlimited" or whatever you decide, you are scored against those planes. In other words, in each class there are 2 categories. At the end of the contest there are 6 winners. Sportsman 60, Sportsman Unlimited, Advanced 60, etc etc. I don't think this would be too hard to do. It's just what pile you scorecard goes into. If each class has to have an overall winner I think it's an apples and oranges thing, but egos are egos, and there will be some type of bickering going on. I personally don't care if I come in last to a 60 or a 91, but some people want to preserve the 60 only planes, and some people want more power. I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes, but I think this is fair, not too complicated,and EVERYBODY WINS. Of course you have to decide what a "classic" with a 91 is.
We are all just big kids and we CAN get along with each other.
DAVE

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Well, if you look back at page 1 or 2, that was one of the first things I said....have a classic and unlimited class. Which to me would make sense, but, some people believe that it would spread out the people into too many different classes. Who knows, they may be right.

-Mike

vellum2

My Feedback: (2)

I guess I'm a little confused on why this is even much of a debate. The set up of the plane is soooo much more important than the size of the motor. The power of the motors is more of an issue in the current turn around style because the speed of the planes is slower. You need the power to pull you around the top of big, complicated manuevers. The older style pattern where you wind up - do a manuever - then get time to set yourself up for the next can almost completely rely on the momentum of the plane. Motor size is really pretty irrelevant in my opinion. So why add all the complicated rules and scoring systems, extra classes, etc.? Unecessary. The SIZE of these planes is really going to dictate what fits in them anyway. The best example is the current set of rules... There is no motor limit and I don't see too many DA 150's in the fat 2M birds, though I'm certain someone could make it fit and quiet it down enough to force it to work. The point is, it ain't worth it! The other choices work well.

It all comes back to building the plane you like and set it up how you want. Trim it and you will be just as competitive as the next fella if you practice. Everything else is in the noise... (Provided of course you don't exceed the published AMA noise limits ;-) )

Joe W.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

Does anyone know if Dave Brown still flies RC. He must have a few Illusions saved up along with World Engines radios. He might be a good resource to pump up the BPA idea and is an awesome pilot.

BevoHoward

I posted this back on page thirteen, and it didn't get any response. I just figured my opinions and suggestions were of little value and decided to just observe.

I think the Pattern era as we know it, ran from--oh say, the early seventies to the mid eighties. It seems to me you would want a Rule Book from sometime near the middle of that.

I have to say that if a contest could be arranged in the Mid Atlantic area, Fentress would be the place to have it. I belonged to TRC for many years and have flown at several contests there. The Masters was held there one year, as was the Nats. And they hold a large Jet Rally once a year.--But--TRC and the The Petersburg Club ( Mid-Va RC Club)are only two of several here in Virginia.

RCBuilder42yrs

Whoa Baby! Oh yeah! 2 dogs that I will NOT Stare Down.... Pits and Rots! Most everything I own is "Black" and is adorned with Chrome even my little Mutt. (See Picture below)

Gary how about posting a picture of the XLT? Love pictures!

8178:
Pretty sure Dave still fly's, but he maybe into "OLD TIMERS" now... ie: Comet Clippers, Valkary's, Miss America

MHESTER:
You bringin' a Curare will it be FG or WOOD? Post some pictures when you begin your build.
Mazee struck up this pose when I showed her your post.. "WOOF". [:-D]

BevoHoward:
I'm going to scan my recently aquired 82-83 Rule book and post here on the BPA Forum. Good Suggestion BTW!

Vellum2:
<snip> if you practice!<snip>
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, your giving away trade secrets now! <boseg>

Question:
Does anybody know of a Manf.(Not APC) that produces CF props say in the 10.5 to 11.5 range in deep pitchs or am I going to have to drag out the wood shaver?

Tony
BPA #2
[sm=wink_smile.gif]

P.S. Is this a "SLICK" looking FUSE or What?

RCBuilder42yrs

8178,

I wrote Dave to ask him, here is his reply:

There you have it from the man himself...

Tony
BPA #2