doxilia

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kcc,

Thanks for your post and yes, you can be sure that members of the CPF do appreciate these designs and kits!

I haven't been able to start the work on tracing parts yet but i did manage to conclude the parts inventory for the Curare (the Cosmos is done). Hopefully tomorrow evening will bring the first draftsman's lines.

David.

roncoleman

My Feedback: (14)

David

Count me in also for support. Please PM the PP info.

Ron

doxilia

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Pete,

Thanks very much for your donation.

Ron,

PM sent.

David.

dreadnaut

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I see that you already have several CAD Volunteers. Put me in the que. I also have an Aurora .45 that I started the fuse years ago, then it got put up. The plans were damaged and I plan to scan them to preserve them digitaly. I may scan and CAD the ribs also if anyone is interested.

Dave.

PM with e-mail

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Dave,

thanks for offering help with the CAD. I'll add your name to the que.

The Aurora 45 is a beautiful model. I'm lucky to also own that kit and hope to build it one day soon. If you would like a digital copy of the plans, just let me know - I have a copy kindly shared by others on this forum. No need to scan yours. I believe that in the absence of a complete CAD layout of an MK kit, it is quite a challenge to scratch such a kit - particularly designs such as Aurora, Beetle and Cosmos (Mike's BA thread is a bit of a testament to this). If you do put your ribs into CAD though, I'm sure they would be of use to others sooner or later.

This thread is however dedicated solely to 20 size MK designs. The scope of the task at hand is large enough that I don't have any intentions (at present) to include many of the other fine MK kits including 40 and 60 size designs. If we can get two 20 size kits into re-production, that will be an achievement in itself, if we can continue with others that will be better yet.

Thanks for your interest in the project.

David.

Roguedog

doxilla.

I too would like to offer my assistance to this project. If I could get the plans for the Cosmos and the Curare and a tracing of the root ribs (two pieces for W1) and tip ribs I can loft a wing relatively fast in autocad I have a complete MK Magic 20 kit if you need a part traced for it. I have plans and a few tracings for the 20 size Skymaster, but the guy that shared them with me scanned the ribs instesd of tracing them so I would need a tip rib and the twopiece W1 root rib to loft the wing.


Bryan

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Bryan,

good to hear from you. Thanks for your interest in the project.

I haven't gotten around to scanning the plans yet. Thankfully there are a number of people eager to help with the CAD work. Of course, it will be good to try and share the workload so as we make progress with the project, there may be other kits that will come along. There will be no shortage of CAD work to be done if the project continues successfully.

Good to know that you have a Magic kit in your collection. My understanding is that Pedro has offered to do the tracing and CAD work of the Magic from his kit. Should there be something missing from either of your kits, perhaps the one could assist the other.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, my goal is to re-produce these kits so that modelers interested in building a 20 size MK kit can do so in the absence of the discontinued originals. Ideally this would come in the form of a "not so short" kit including plans and canopies. Things like hardware are a personal choice so no need to include that with the kits.

It would be really nice to find a source for a Skymaster. It's one of the few 20 size designs with a concealed pipe however, some additional work would be needed to re-create it as it came with a FG fuse top under which the pipe ran. If we should be so lucky as to find one, perhaps then Chuck could put his great composite talents at producing a fuse deck for this rare model.

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

The canopies of the Cosmos and Curare were sent to Rick (FreeBird) today so that he can do his magic with them. If anyone else who has a 20 size classic MK kit would like to have the canopy duplicated, Rick is generously offering to do this work as a contribution to the project. Having a duplicate of the original canopy seems to me like a good idea even in the absence of this project as it could be replaced in the event of a crack.

Please contact Rick via PM (or email) if you're interested.

In other news, I'm still working on tracings despite the shortage of time recently.

I'd like to thank again those who've helped to support this project so far both financially and through volunteer work. I believe I've sent PM's with PP info to all those who've asked. If you'd like to contribute a donation and haven't received a PM from me, please let me know. All funds are going into a "project pool" to help offset expenses incurred by those directly involved. Much of this is expected to go into shipping expenses as well as perhaps, if funds allow, into the prototyping of the first kits. I'm hoping, with the help from Pedro, to be able to prototype three designs initially - the Cosmos, Curare and Magic. The primary concern will be the conversion of the designs from metric sized wood to imperial sized wood.

Thanks, David.

Roguedog

Hey doxilla. Aurora 60 has a Skymaster 20 kit he started a couple of years ago. Even started a build thread here on RCU. He's a cool guy and might be encouraged to make a few canopies himself as he has a friend on the island that does canopies.

I'll try to pursuade him.

Bryan

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Alright Bryan and David - the cat's out of the bag!

A Skymaster 20. Yes, I did see David's thread last year and I believe you had started one on your Magic too if I remember correctly. We are lucky to have Max 25 VF DF's which is the natural fit for the Skymaster. I don't know what progress you've made in converting the Magic for a RE engine layout as it's big brother but it would also be a nice option.

David, if you've caught wind of this thread and would be able to produce Skymaster fuse tops that would be a big part of the puzzle in the conservation of that kit. My understanding is that the entire fuse top (like the bigger Skymaster 60) has a FG deck rather than a canopy and is built much like the 60 sized Magic and Skymaster. The engine is mounted inverted with an S-shaped header from the 25 VF and the pipe runs along the top under the FG deck. The deck itself has an air inlet at the front deck/fuse junction and air outlets from the sides in the rear. The exhaust is directed downward through the fuse with a diverter.

What I really like about the Skymaster is how it is essentially a reduction of the larger model preserving the entire equipment concept intact. Of course, as a later MK design (I believe), it's lines are also very nice and should fly nicely on a piped powerful 25.

I'm not sure where your build stands David but if you felt inclined to tracing the kit parts, that would be a great contribution to the project. If the FG deck work is too demanding on time or resources, Chuck (Atlanta 60) has offered to do this work and we all know what his FG work looks like!

While my inclination with these kits would be to either build a Cosmos or an Aurora first, if I had the possibility of building a Skymaster, that would would probably head the queue!

I look forward to further news on the subject guys!

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

While there hasn't been too much activity on this thread lately, I wanted to bring things up to date for all interested parties.

Free Bird has received the canopy duplicates which appear to be of excellent quality. I have been a little tied up in the last couple of weeks but expect to be able to finish the drafting work by mid month so that the kits, upon reception of the canopies, can be returned to Joe.

Joe, a great thanks to you for your kind donation toward the project. As mentioned, I've been a little off the map as of late and haven't been able to send the appropriate thanks out needed. Rick, a great thanks to you too for your work on the canopies. I hope to drop you both a line over the weekend.

Things are happening and soon we'll be able to start with the CAD work!

David.

gianfry2866

how to get a cosmo 20 kit in italy ????

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Gianfry,

non so se ti aiuterebbe se scressi in Italiano ma se e cosi, mandami una riga via messaggio privato e spiegero brevemente l'oggetivo di questo projetto.

Once the heavy lifting of this project is done (CAD work is complete and prototyping of the kits is successful), the idea is to make fresh short kits of these 20 size classics. Which design will be available first we don't know yet but at the moment work is being done on the larger 32 sized Cosmos 20 and the smaller 25 sized Curare. Much of the work will also entail converting metric Japanese MK wood to N.A. imperial size wood since much of the interest and the kitting of these classics would be done here. While this might pose a bit of a problem in European metric countries, in theory all the specialized wood pieces would be provided in the short kits. Any supplemental sheet or stick wood required could be sourced from N.A. online mail order balsa companies so as to be able to complete the re-engineered models. The conversion of metric to imperial will have little or no effect on the lines of the designs.

In brief, short kits will eventually be available and would be offered to anyone interested - however, we're not quite there yet at this point in time.

I hope this helps,

David.

gianfry2866

I doxilla


i wrote to u in pm .......

Aurora_60

My Feedback: (1)

Yes I do have the Skymaster still. I haven't been doing anything with it since I decided on wing servos. The turttle deck is still perfect and making a mold is a definate must...in the future. Work, moving this month and gosh darn it, I still haven't flown my Aurora 60! I really need to fly..Soon.


doxilla, I sent you a PM

DM

Viktor D

Hi guys, hi David,

what a wonderfull thread. It´s really nice to see a thread fosused of the small sized models. As it is possible to get some of the mid sized plans ( the Minare - Curare 40 - is still available in German (www.vth.de)) the smaller planes are impossible to get. Thanky guys

If you still need cad volunteers put me on your list. The other help I could offer: I have a cnc mill and can mill 3d parts. So many on the balsa parts, but also plugs for canopies or moulds for turtledecks could be milled. When necessary the parts could be milled to the final shape.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Viktor,

Welcome to the classic pattern forum. Thanks for your enthusiasm about this project. While I have had to put things on hold for a while due to work, I expect to pick things up in the near future. I have much of the parts tracing done but some remains. To provide a brief update, canopies for the first two models being worked on have been produced (FB, thanks again). As soon as I finish all the parts tracing, I will scan my work in order to provide templates for the conversion of the plans from metric to imperial which will be the bulk of the effort in getting the kits underway.

Thanks for offering your CAD expertise. Also, your offer for producing 3D parts with your CNC mill is invaluable. I have been somewhat concerned with the reproduction of those specialized kit parts as I have been informed that the cost for doing so (primarily due to machine time, if I understand correctly) is high. However, if you were able to produce these parts at reasonable cost, the kits would have considerable more value to us modelers. The beauty of MK kits, among other things, is the detail of work that goes into forming those balsa blocks.

At the moment I'm making a best effort to obtain 2D drawings of the 3D parts from the various different planes hoping that they would be of some use. If these drawings will assist in the production of those parts with your CNC mill, that's great news! If on the other hand, you need something more specific so that the parts can be reproduced, please let me know. I imagine that the parts need to be rendered into 3D objects in software before the mill is able to cut them.

I'm really glad that I started this thread as the pool of talent and offers of assistance in making this project a reality continues to unfold. I hope to bring further news to all those interested very soon.

Thanks, David.

Viktor D

David,

I would suggest that we start to figure out on a living sample :-)

could you post an image of the parts as you did it on the previous page and mark with a brush the parts you think should be milled. It would help me getting an overview what has to be done. We should also decide if the parts should be milled as they were in the Kato kits or ready to the final shape. It might be that milling the balsa blocs to the final shape is almost the same as to the shape of the blocks of the Kato kit! I have to figure it out - it depends on the shape. The other question is do we want it ?

What two kits are you working now, the same order as listed in post #3? As I would be interested in one electric version I would prefer the Curare or Magic to make the trials. They are of very simple construction.

(normally I fly gliders - and therefore I´m usually in the glider corner of rcg)

Once again - great thread!

Viktor D

I just noticed that you started with the Cosmos and the Curare. I had a look ant some of the relevant parts, the Cosmos is has much more complex parts. The Curare has only few of them. - like NBD1 NBD2. NBU is a part where it would make sense to mill it to the final shape. But the question for me is: should it be a "pure" Kato kit or a are modifications allowed.

I remember I still have my old OS 40VF - I used it with an OPS tuning pipe - it was really loud, but the power was exceptional - its rather something for the Aurora 45

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Viktor,

sure thing. The two kits that I'm working on at the moment are indeed the Cosmos 20 (32 sized model) and the Curare 20 (25 sized model). As you mention, the Cosmos is somewhat more complex and has a few more custom blocks. For a starters, I'd say that yes, provided the blocks are reasonable in cost to produce, there is no reason to omit them from the kits. Part of the beauty of MK kits is in these custom balsa shapes.

In terms of milling them to final shape, I'd say mostly no. These parts are cut to the shape in the kits to facilitate the build process. The various parts need to interlock and bond at right angles and also help to ensure that the build is straight. Most of the final shaping occurs around the nose area and in the fuse to fin transition. Carving and sanding to final shape is not overly complex and provides material to produce a smooth surface for finishing. The other complexity in producing these parts to final shape is that, in the absence of feeding the CNC software a 3D part from a 3D render of the model, there is no way to extract the exact dimensions of the part.

In short, I see no great advantage in producing final shapes as opposed to reproducing kit shapes. Doing so also sounds more elaborate and costly.

I'll assemble some of the Cosmos blocks and post a picture to give you an idea of what's entailed. The various plane drawings I'm making of the parts would probably provide a better guide. The good news, is that these blocks are neither imperial nor metric, they are just milled balsa shapes that should fit into place equally well on an imperial wood model as in the metric version.

Cool. This project is going global!

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

My feeling is that there is no issue with allowing modifications. However, MK kits are so well conceived, designed and produced that I personally see no need for them. My preference would be to not have those directly involved with the project do any more work than necessary. If there is something that you feel could or maybe should be improved on, then perhaps this could be addressed after the prototypes are built.

There might be some interest in attempting something similar in terms of kit conservation for the larger 40 and 60 size kits. I don't personally plan to entertain that idea for this project. The effort is quite time consuming and requires considerable amounts of work from all those involved and so I'd rather keep this thread focused on the 20 size kits hoping to move on to other designs once the goal with the Cosmos and Curare has been achieved.

Your 40VF sounds like a great match for the MK Arrow 40 as well. I hope to build my kit sometime next year. YS 45 FR and Hatori pipe powered.

David.

Viktor D

David,

I newer had a Kato kit, but had similar feelings - pure 100% Kato. I downloaded the Magic 20 plan you posted and had a closer look at the parts. It really would´n justify the effort and would make things in some cases difficult to build. The whole model had to be build in 3D to extract the blocks and the builder had to make zero mistakes while assembling - otherwise the transitions might not match.

My absolute favourite is the Blue Angel. But I would like to build it in large. But I like the jet-like shape of the Japanese planes (Blue angel, Aurora). For the VF it might be one with a build in tuned pipe. It´s nothing for the current winter but I´m thinking about an Aurora.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Viktor,

I'm glad we share the same view on the 3D parts. MK kits really are exceptional. If the Japanese designed the kit you can be sure that if they milled parts to a certain shape, it's because that is the best way to go about things. As you say, since wood is organic and varies from kit to kit (although less so in MK kits), the shape of the milled parts is conceived so that you have material to produce the final lines of the model.

I did some more work on the Cosmos last night. The amount of precision parts (even spars!) seems to never end but I think I finally reached the end of the tracing job. I actually don't think milling the spars is going to be as easy as the blocks (not sure whether it's worth it), reason being that the imperial model needs to be resized first, extruded into 3D to confirm the translation and finally, things like spars re-dimensioned to provide you with a 3D spar template for milling. It sounds too labourius and logistically complex so here's where alterations to the MK design might be in order. The wing might be framed up in a more conventional manner with rib tabs, alignment TE notches and perhaps sheet sub leading edges. I like using sub leading edges (or again rib notches for an alignment LE - much like in the Bridi Dirty Birdy or UFO) because it allows you to sheet the LE while still pinned down without the actual LE on yet. This preferred method can be seen to have been adopted by Joe Bridi in the transition from the DB design to the UFO design (plans available on the Trenton site) and is now commonly used in modern kits (for the few that are left...). The cool thing about notched spars and TE's is that it really gets your wing super straight (man, do the Japanese know what they are doing!). Anyway, I'm thinking aloud here.

After the Cosmos and the Curare, the next kits I hope to get to are the Aurora 25 and the Blue Angel 20. The final kit which should be available would be the Mattlas 20. As we know from earlier posts, also available are a Magic 20 kit and a Skymaster kit and hopefully their owners will be able to produce templates to make them part of the collection of this effort. I don't believe that MK ever kitted an Arrow 20 but it cold conceivably form part of this collection by reducing the Arrow 40 plans and their parts (which I have). The easiest way to do this is probably just to go through the same process as we're doing for the 20's on the Arrow 40 and then scale the entire thing down for an OS 25 VF DF . I have thought about scratching an Arrow 20 for that engine (I have a 25 VF NIB) but I really don't like the original plans drafted for the 60. The MK plans and design is much better.

Anyway, the point of the Arrow 20 and the Skymaster 20 is to have two designs for RE engines as all the others (including the Aurora) are designed for SE engines (in some cases with concealed pipes as with the Cosmos). Basically, the Arrow would have and upright engine and over the deck pipe. The Skymaster has an inverted engine and over the deck pipe and the Cosmos has a side mounted engine with a header entering the fuse and an under the wing pipe centered in a closed belly pan. These three models are my personal favourites of the MK 20 size lineup. But I digress.

The Aurora 45 is a very large model. I'd say better suited to a powerful 45 (e.g. a YS 45 or the OS 46 VF) or even the OS 55 AX. A custom header could be made to mount the engine inverted if using a SE engine. The plans show how the model can be built with the engine either side mounted or inverted. It also shows a YS 45 for power (the prototype engine used I imagine). Personally I think your 40 VF would be the ideal plant for an Arrow 40 if built to 5.5 lbs max. A Skymaster 40 would be another option but again I don't think they were ever kitted. Skymasters (kits and otherwise) are few and far between.

The tunes I'm listening to (Pink Floyd - The Division Bell) have got me rambling. Day off today, time to go build (or draft, rather...)

David.

P.S. I'll get the Cosmos blocks picture to you soon.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Good news folks!

Scanning finally starts tonight! [8D]

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

A first milestone...

Stage 1 of the Cosmos 20 is complete. Stage 2 CAD work and 3D rendering of blocks to produce an imperial model should be underway soon. The request is out!

Next step, finish the development package (as I've decided to call it) for the Curare 20.

After several evenings of work, it feels like an achievement.[sm=52_52.gif]

I hope everyone is still as enthused about this project as I am. I can't wait to see the first kits rolling off the press...

David.