2stroke vrs. 4stroke
10-27-2006, 02:46 PM
#26
RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
I adjust my engines far less than my 2S flying friends who seem to be constantly trying to burn out their engines.
10-27-2006, 07:20 PM
#27
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
10-27-2006, 07:38 PM
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
That is an interesting point, and goes to show just how much the marketing department can effect what the engineering department does.
ORIGINAL: B.L.E.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
10-27-2006, 09:15 PM
#29
RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
Horizon is very slick in their marketing techniques. Almost every product advertised in their quarterly catalogs is interrelated with the other products being promoted. Everything has the appearance of being selected to work together in a supportive manner. This "selective concept catalog" marketing is totally different from Tower's approach which aims to appear as a "Superstore" that offers every imaginable r/c item on the market. Two very different strategies. They both work well.
10-27-2006, 09:31 PM
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
Take the OS LA .65 for example, it bested several of the best engines in the MAN shootout and yet the illusion persists that it is a weak engine. I have one and I love it to the point that I Dieselized it, it turns a 13x8 three blade at 9,200.
10-28-2006, 10:13 AM
#31
Senior Member
RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
The reason I run 4 strokes is I prefer the sound and there is no big muffler to contend with. I also prefer the torque curve and tuning of a four stroke. I really like my Saito's but there is a learning curve as far as tuning them; but once you have that mastered, they are very reliable and make excellent power. Yes, they have they have issues just like anything else ( mufflers falling off, bad bearings etc) , but for the most part, they are Pretty trouble free, at least in my experience.
10-28-2006, 10:37 AM
#32
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
ORIGINAL: B.L.E.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
--------------
I cuold not have said it better myself. Well put.
10-29-2006, 12:57 AM
#34
RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
ORIGINAL: B.L.E.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
01-06-2007, 01:45 AM
#35
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
OK 1986 Honda's fourtrax 250R came in the world and people that know about bike's would say to this
day it is the BEST. The 450yzx & 450r are very good!! I have the honda! Powerfull and faster then 250R.
The 250R 246cc & 39hp,But a Airstriker crab & FMF pipe make's it move! I want people understand a 4
stroke is better on mech. front. 2 stroke's are the king of pure QUICK!! The fuel part is just simply this
a 2 stroke burn's much more!! The motor burn's the fuel every 2 time's the piston stroke's & the power-
band is when some of the gas&oil mix is pulled in port's. The port's hold the mix and it's burning! The
new gas inter's! The port of burning gas is that the top and as fast as lightning strike's bomb!! Remember
no cam for timing. The port's in the jug is what time's the 2 stroke,But the gas in the top port is only
burning for 1/256 of a sec. Remember in the powerband it burn's fuel in every stroke(TRUE)! Just say
you're riding at 3400rpm & you pour on the gas and it jump's to 9000 in a spilt sec!! 4 stroke's burn's
gas every 2 stroke only! Now the mech. part of the 2 stroke get a pen & paper. Every time the motor
is running write it down & at 70hrs. or riden hard 55-60hrs. Put a new piston kit in & fine hoem the jug
inside cylinder!! Now every 4 time's,Put 3 piston kit's in,But #4 take whole motor apart! The ring's &
cylinder wear. Clean the inside like you were a Dr.& replace every bearing!! Remember lite cast alum. case. Cleaning all metel shaving's & replacing ALL bearing will save in the long run. A 2
stroke is worth the time & money! You have the KING under your butt!! QUICK and working on the motor
you learn a skill.. Life is all about learning! OK check one everytime them freestlye guy's jump 4 stroke
bike's are NOT under there butt's!! Oh the KING OF QUICK IS! They miss a gear rite before the ramp
pour on the gas it will rocket and a life is safed! I was at a motorcross last March 2 heats. 1 heat all 4
stroke's & 1 KTM 105cc 2 stroke. 2 heat two 2 stroke's in the field. The winner of the final was KTM 105cc
450's of all band's in the field, But the 105cc 2 stroke STROKE them by 1 1/3 lap!! LOVED IT! I know 2
stroke's well 1 each kaw kx80,250 Honda cr250,trx250R and now trx450r, like it,But my 250R was the
one I raced for yrs. Never replaced a motor! The mech. I learned from a old pro!! Older people know the
the way. I'm 35 tooo old to race, But never to ride.....lol
P.S. On the 4 piston kit bore .10!! Every 4 kit bore just .10 Boring singal cylinder motor for HP. DON'T!
The cylinder wall waer's every 215-240hrs .10 bore perfect amount! MIXING THE OIL LEAN! DON'T YOU
DO IT!! 2 stroke synthetics worth the cost put rite amount with 93+actane higher the better! No spark-
knoting, Can crack piston & break ring's. Then resleeving cylinder time! Try to resleeve+1300hrs!
day it is the BEST. The 450yzx & 450r are very good!! I have the honda! Powerfull and faster then 250R.
The 250R 246cc & 39hp,But a Airstriker crab & FMF pipe make's it move! I want people understand a 4
stroke is better on mech. front. 2 stroke's are the king of pure QUICK!! The fuel part is just simply this
a 2 stroke burn's much more!! The motor burn's the fuel every 2 time's the piston stroke's & the power-
band is when some of the gas&oil mix is pulled in port's. The port's hold the mix and it's burning! The
new gas inter's! The port of burning gas is that the top and as fast as lightning strike's bomb!! Remember
no cam for timing. The port's in the jug is what time's the 2 stroke,But the gas in the top port is only
burning for 1/256 of a sec. Remember in the powerband it burn's fuel in every stroke(TRUE)! Just say
you're riding at 3400rpm & you pour on the gas and it jump's to 9000 in a spilt sec!! 4 stroke's burn's
gas every 2 stroke only! Now the mech. part of the 2 stroke get a pen & paper. Every time the motor
is running write it down & at 70hrs. or riden hard 55-60hrs. Put a new piston kit in & fine hoem the jug
inside cylinder!! Now every 4 time's,Put 3 piston kit's in,But #4 take whole motor apart! The ring's &
cylinder wear. Clean the inside like you were a Dr.& replace every bearing!! Remember lite cast alum. case. Cleaning all metel shaving's & replacing ALL bearing will save in the long run. A 2
stroke is worth the time & money! You have the KING under your butt!! QUICK and working on the motor
you learn a skill.. Life is all about learning! OK check one everytime them freestlye guy's jump 4 stroke
bike's are NOT under there butt's!! Oh the KING OF QUICK IS! They miss a gear rite before the ramp
pour on the gas it will rocket and a life is safed! I was at a motorcross last March 2 heats. 1 heat all 4
stroke's & 1 KTM 105cc 2 stroke. 2 heat two 2 stroke's in the field. The winner of the final was KTM 105cc
450's of all band's in the field, But the 105cc 2 stroke STROKE them by 1 1/3 lap!! LOVED IT! I know 2
stroke's well 1 each kaw kx80,250 Honda cr250,trx250R and now trx450r, like it,But my 250R was the
one I raced for yrs. Never replaced a motor! The mech. I learned from a old pro!! Older people know the
the way. I'm 35 tooo old to race, But never to ride.....lol
P.S. On the 4 piston kit bore .10!! Every 4 kit bore just .10 Boring singal cylinder motor for HP. DON'T!
The cylinder wall waer's every 215-240hrs .10 bore perfect amount! MIXING THE OIL LEAN! DON'T YOU
DO IT!! 2 stroke synthetics worth the cost put rite amount with 93+actane higher the better! No spark-
knoting, Can crack piston & break ring's. Then resleeving cylinder time! Try to resleeve+1300hrs!
01-06-2007, 05:35 AM
#36
Senior Member
My Feedback: (14)
RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
ORIGINAL: B.L.E.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
The market for 2-strokes tends to worship horsepower and high rpm. Buying decisions are often based on brand X milking 0.1 more horsepower out of a .40 than brand Y does. Because of this, these engines are tuned for all out horsepower even at the expense of tractibility. Who cares about throttle linearity when you bore holes in the sky at full throttle for the entire flight anyway. Put a smaller carb on the engine for better throttle response and tune the porting for lower rpm use and nobody will buy it because it's an underpowered dog, unless it's built with bushing bearings and is sold for under $60 bucks retail, but since it has an air bleed carb so that it can meet that price point, it still does not transition all that well.
Four strokes, on the other hand, are designed to please a market of more experienced flyers who demand excellent throttle transition over maximum horsepower and RPM.
And thus, the stereotypes are reinforced.
------------
Boy, you've got that one figured out down to a science. <G>
Ed Cregger
01-06-2007, 08:09 AM
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
ORIGINAL: HONDA4EVER
OK 1986 Honda's fourtrax 250R came in the world and people that know about bike's would say to this
day it is the BEST. The 450yzx & 450r are very good!! I have the honda! Powerfull and faster then 250R.
The 250R 246cc & 39hp,But a Airstriker crab & FMF pipe make's it move! I want people understand a 4
stroke is better on mech. front. 2 stroke's are the king of pure QUICK!! The fuel part is just simply this
a 2 stroke burn's much more!! The motor burn's the fuel every 2 time's the piston stroke's & the power-
band is when some of the gas&oil mix is pulled in port's. The port's hold the mix and it's burning! The
new gas inter's! The port of burning gas is that the top and as fast as lightning strike's bomb!! Remember
no cam for timing. The port's in the jug is what time's the 2 stroke,But the gas in the top port is only
burning for 1/256 of a sec. Remember in the powerband it burn's fuel in every stroke(TRUE)! Just say
you're riding at 3400rpm & you pour on the gas and it jump's to 9000 in a spilt sec!! 4 stroke's burn's
gas every 2 stroke only! Now the mech. part of the 2 stroke get a pen & paper. Every time the motor
is running write it down & at 70hrs. or riden hard 55-60hrs. Put a new piston kit in & fine hoem the jug
inside cylinder!! Now every 4 time's,Put 3 piston kit's in,But #4 take whole motor apart! The ring's &
cylinder wear. Clean the inside like you were a Dr.& replace every bearing!! Remember lite cast alum. case. Cleaning all metel shaving's & replacing ALL bearing will save in the long run. A 2
stroke is worth the time & money! You have the KING under your butt!! QUICK and working on the motor
you learn a skill.. Life is all about learning! OK check one everytime them freestlye guy's jump 4 stroke
bike's are NOT under there butt's!! Oh the KING OF QUICK IS! They miss a gear rite before the ramp
pour on the gas it will rocket and a life is safed! I was at a motorcross last March 2 heats. 1 heat all 4
stroke's & 1 KTM 105cc 2 stroke. 2 heat two 2 stroke's in the field. The winner of the final was KTM 105cc
450's of all band's in the field, But the 105cc 2 stroke STROKE them by 1 1/3 lap!! LOVED IT! I know 2
stroke's well 1 each kaw kx80,250 Honda cr250,trx250R and now trx450r, like it,But my 250R was the
one I raced for yrs. Never replaced a motor! The mech. I learned from a old pro!! Older people know the
the way. I'm 35 tooo old to race, But never to ride.....lol
P.S. On the 4 piston kit bore .10!! Every 4 kit bore just .10 Boring singal cylinder motor for HP. DON'T!
The cylinder wall waer's every 215-240hrs .10 bore perfect amount! MIXING THE OIL LEAN! DON'T YOU
DO IT!! 2 stroke synthetics worth the cost put rite amount with 93+actane higher the better! No spark-
knoting, Can crack piston & break ring's. Then resleeving cylinder time! Try to resleeve+1300hrs!
OK 1986 Honda's fourtrax 250R came in the world and people that know about bike's would say to this
day it is the BEST. The 450yzx & 450r are very good!! I have the honda! Powerfull and faster then 250R.
The 250R 246cc & 39hp,But a Airstriker crab & FMF pipe make's it move! I want people understand a 4
stroke is better on mech. front. 2 stroke's are the king of pure QUICK!! The fuel part is just simply this
a 2 stroke burn's much more!! The motor burn's the fuel every 2 time's the piston stroke's & the power-
band is when some of the gas&oil mix is pulled in port's. The port's hold the mix and it's burning! The
new gas inter's! The port of burning gas is that the top and as fast as lightning strike's bomb!! Remember
no cam for timing. The port's in the jug is what time's the 2 stroke,But the gas in the top port is only
burning for 1/256 of a sec. Remember in the powerband it burn's fuel in every stroke(TRUE)! Just say
you're riding at 3400rpm & you pour on the gas and it jump's to 9000 in a spilt sec!! 4 stroke's burn's
gas every 2 stroke only! Now the mech. part of the 2 stroke get a pen & paper. Every time the motor
is running write it down & at 70hrs. or riden hard 55-60hrs. Put a new piston kit in & fine hoem the jug
inside cylinder!! Now every 4 time's,Put 3 piston kit's in,But #4 take whole motor apart! The ring's &
cylinder wear. Clean the inside like you were a Dr.& replace every bearing!! Remember lite cast alum. case. Cleaning all metel shaving's & replacing ALL bearing will save in the long run. A 2
stroke is worth the time & money! You have the KING under your butt!! QUICK and working on the motor
you learn a skill.. Life is all about learning! OK check one everytime them freestlye guy's jump 4 stroke
bike's are NOT under there butt's!! Oh the KING OF QUICK IS! They miss a gear rite before the ramp
pour on the gas it will rocket and a life is safed! I was at a motorcross last March 2 heats. 1 heat all 4
stroke's & 1 KTM 105cc 2 stroke. 2 heat two 2 stroke's in the field. The winner of the final was KTM 105cc
450's of all band's in the field, But the 105cc 2 stroke STROKE them by 1 1/3 lap!! LOVED IT! I know 2
stroke's well 1 each kaw kx80,250 Honda cr250,trx250R and now trx450r, like it,But my 250R was the
one I raced for yrs. Never replaced a motor! The mech. I learned from a old pro!! Older people know the
the way. I'm 35 tooo old to race, But never to ride.....lol
P.S. On the 4 piston kit bore .10!! Every 4 kit bore just .10 Boring singal cylinder motor for HP. DON'T!
The cylinder wall waer's every 215-240hrs .10 bore perfect amount! MIXING THE OIL LEAN! DON'T YOU
DO IT!! 2 stroke synthetics worth the cost put rite amount with 93+actane higher the better! No spark-
knoting, Can crack piston & break ring's. Then resleeving cylinder time! Try to resleeve+1300hrs!
HONDA4EVER, motocross racing takes a lot of skill and a hiqh degree of athleticism and endurance. An excellent rider on a mediocre bike can lap mediocre riders on the best bikes that money can buy. So, the results that you observed prove very little.
There is a common racer's fallacy, "I only lost because my equipment isn't as good as that of the winner". That's a little like saying that the only reason I can't play guitar as well as my favorite rock star is because I can't afford his guitar.
01-06-2007, 10:47 AM
#39
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
ORIGINAL: tonywayne
Great thread! Thanks alot gentlemen for you awesome opinions. But just one thing no ones mentioned yet. What about fuel economy between a 2 and 4 strk?
Great thread! Thanks alot gentlemen for you awesome opinions. But just one thing no ones mentioned yet. What about fuel economy between a 2 and 4 strk?
Cheers,
Chip
01-06-2007, 11:17 AM
#41
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RE: 2stroke vrs. 4stroke
ORIGINAL: RVM
From what I've seen, currently, within glow engines, the best 4-strokes have a better power:weight than the best 2-strokes. Also, the fuel consumption can be a little better, and I have found that power is much more "instantaneous" with a 4-stroke than with a 2-stroke. Also, 4-strokes seem to run a lot smoother.
From what I've seen, currently, within glow engines, the best 4-strokes have a better power:weight than the best 2-strokes. Also, the fuel consumption can be a little better, and I have found that power is much more "instantaneous" with a 4-stroke than with a 2-stroke. Also, 4-strokes seem to run a lot smoother.
As for noise, 2-strokes have gotten a bad rap, I think, because of the exhausts used on them. Especially gassers, with those little can mufflers on them. May as well run them with open exhaust. But with a good exhaust, they're nice and quiet. My big gasser with the intake and exhaust silencers installed is super quiet even inside the airplane - the prop is about the only thing you can hear with maybe a little whine audible at full throttle.
My all time favorite glow is the OS 1.40 RX which, with the $$$$$ OS pipe is barely audible above the prop noise. It was almost like an electric, well not quite, but very quiet.
I still prefer 2-strokes myself, even for full scale, due to the lower parts count. And, in the 40 to 50hp range, which is where I tend to be, there are no economically viable competitors to the 2-stroke motors as of yet.
In R/C, that's changing since the 4-strokes are getting really good. I still prefer the 2-strokes though again for the lower parts count and a little lower cost. I'm jonesin' for another 1.40 RX and a pattern plane already. Who knows when I'll give in....
LS
You`ll be glad you did
