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  1. #101
    roaddog2's Avatar
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Thanks guys for th' definition of SAM. A "newbie" appreciates it.
    :O)
    RD
    Th\'\' Roaddog
    Montross, Va

  2. #102
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    There still is a huge amount of builders here in the USA. But our hobby has become flooded with arf fliers & planes. What I choose to do is continue to build kits and help teach the next generation entering the hobby that building is the core of the hobby, if you learn to build, you can repair. It also makes them more careful and perform inspections more frequently, they will spot the problem b/c it isn't the way they set it up. Currently I've been buying vintage kits for my nostalgia of when the hobby was only kits and nothing prebuilt. I also started a future student entering the hobby on a eaglet 50, after that plane is finished, he will build a more advanced kit, building his skills as he learns the hobby and has fun.

  3. #103

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Think things have changed for the op in 8 years?
    whew... I've been out of it for 16 years and o lordy I hardly recognize things now.
    I owned a hobby shop from 83 to 94, dirt track and rc plane building areas in the back. Right behind the counter I had my personal building station. When I wasn't at the counter or in front I was building something.
    I had allowed anyone to use anything, saws, sanders, etc.
    We where busy as all heck with builders coming in and out to work on their stuff.
    Building was popular but I think I might have had something to do with that. now a days you can't hardly hold a conversation with a LHS guy about "nitro" planes or engines without a dear in the headlight stare.

    I did notice a change towards the end of my reign and even assembled a few ARF's myself. I prefer to build though.
    When I sold the shop I took every single kit on the shelf with me knowing someday I'd get back to it.

    my kids are finally old enough but alas they are the instant gratification types and are ARF RTF prone - grrrr

  4. #104

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Interesting comments by Lee Renaud in the 1953 Frank Zaic Yearbook:

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  5. #105

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    There are still a bunch of us builers left. Kits, not so many. Balsa USA has a number of interesting kits available. Of course there are a number of short kits available as are kit-cutters that'll laser cut from plans or have kits available, but they cost a few bucks. And there is the old stand-by, cut your own. Now THAT'S where the craftsmanship comes in. ARF's are fine but your ARF Mustang will look like everyone elses Mustang by the same company. I would think it an advantage to offer ARC versions of the more popular planes. That way, a little personalization would be great! Just my 2 Cents. Later! Dave Bryer

  6. #106

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    I still build. It's getting harder to find kits at a decent price so I am hoarding. I've got around 15 or so at the moment. Thankfully, plans are readily available to scratch build nearly anything and I've done a few that way. I like scratch building since I can modify the design easier to suit me.

  7. #107
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?


    ORIGINAL: carlgrover

    I still build. It's getting harder to find kits at a decent price so I am hoarding. I've got around 15 or so at the moment. Thankfully, plans are readily available to scratch build nearly anything and I've done a few that way. I like scratch building since I can modify the design easier to suit me.
    Ummmm, not to pick nits, but scratch building requires you designing your own plane and drawing your own plans. Building from available plans are called plans building. Not hardly the same thing.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  8. #108
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Now THERE's a definition I never heard! But then you DID say you were pickin' nits... If I don't have a kit, but I wanna build, I do it w/a plan an' sticks, "from scratch". Got to cut each part individually, by hand, etc. That's scratch!
    (ACTUALLY, I think we're BOTH right, you jus' take the idea to its extreme.)
    RD
    Th\'\' Roaddog
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  9. #109

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Some people build a model plane from an idea. It might be for an original design or to make a "version" of an existing design. Some times they might put together a plan, varying from some sketches to more elaborate line drawings, or proceed with just some reference marks. They select materials, dimensions and construction techniques. That is "scratch" building. I have heard that it also requires planting your own balsa tree, but I don't seriously think it goes that far. As you say, that would be extreme.

    Sometimes, if the scratch built project is well received, the designer makes available plans for others so that others can also construct the project. That is a "plan" build.

    Sometimes a kit is manufactured, using the plans and selected wood and cut wood parts to facilitate a faster, easier build. That is "kit" build.


    Sometimes, things are exactly as they appear to be.

  10. #110
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Scratch building is very serious business!
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    Going Ballistic
    WATCH THIS!.............oops.
    AMA 405143

  11. #111
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Nope, that's why for instance if you build a Waco YMF in quarter scale from Jim Pepino's plans, its called a Pepino Waco. If I draw my own and build it, its scratch built. Think I'm wrong? Go over to the Scratch Builders Forum and ask.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  12. #112
    roaddog2's Avatar
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    StkBldr!
    Put that way, it DOES ring a certain bell. :O)
    RD
    Th\'\' Roaddog
    Montross, Va

  13. #113

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    And following Stickbuilders philosophy, I consider SCALE also a bit less than scratch, if you follow the full size structure and simply modify it for modelling sizes and materials it is more like copying, than scratching. All the design and structural thinking has all been done for you. However, if you come up with the concept, layout, structure and then develop the plan and build it, that could legitimately be considered scratch building.
    Evan, WB #12.

  14. #114
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    It's all an argument about semantics and how you personally want to define your hobby.

    If you bake a cake from a recipe, you can say you baked it "from scratch", meaning you didn't use a mix (kit).

    So you can say the same about modeling. If you built from plans (a recipe), you've built "from scratch".

    Historically, doing something "from scratch" means that you didn't have the materials provided for you. You had to assemble them to make whatever you wanted to make...you didn't buy the materials all prepackaged.

    Again, it's all in how you presonally want to refine/define the idea. Some people want to have the definition more rigorous, and make a distinction between "scratch" building and "plans" building. OK...I can live with how they say it. I've built kits, I've built from plans, and I've built from drawings I created myself...some were even original (heh, heh).

    ....and we can argue on and on about this. However, if you are a builder, you will find a way to build, either by locating and buying a kit, by finding plans, or by drawing your own. In the end, you'll have a model nobody else on the planet will have, because it was made by YOU!
    Bill Baxter, Manager Hobby Services/Futaba Service/North America
    3002 N. Apollo Dr. Ste. 1 Champaign, IL 61822 USA
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  15. #115
    Stickbuilder's Avatar
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?


    ORIGINAL: Bax

    It's all an argument about semantics and how you personally want to define your hobby.

    If you bake a cake from a recipe, you can say you baked it ''from scratch'', meaning you didn't use a mix (kit).

    So you can say the same about modeling. If you built from plans (a recipe), you've built ''from scratch''.

    Historically, doing something ''from scratch'' means that you didn't have the materials provided for you. You had to assemble them to make whatever you wanted to make...you didn't buy the materials all prepackaged.

    Again, it's all in how you presonally want to refine/define the idea. Some people want to have the definition more rigorous, and make a distinction between ''scratch'' building and ''plans'' building. OK...I can live with how they say it. I've built kits, I've built from plans, and I've built from drawings I created myself...some were even original (heh, heh).

    ....and we can argue on and on about this. However, if you are a builder, you will find a way to build, either by locating and buying a kit, by finding plans, or by drawing your own. In the end, you'll have a model nobody else on the planet will have, because it was made by YOU!
    And that's the same theory that allows those who buy the ARF's from you to say that they are building one. Right?

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  16. #116
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    B

  17. #117

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    I've been building models since 1958 and ALWAYS "building from scratch" meant you started with plans, yours or someone else's. The magazines used the term that way all those years too. Railroading magazines use the term that way too. That would satisfy any writer of dictionary definitions...that's how they do their research.

    Then along came some self-appointed expert in the AMA magazine who evidently thought that the term "scratch build" was too exalted to be applied to mere building and suddenly you didn't scratch build a plane unless you also designed it. Some people started using the term "plans built". HUH? I never heard that term until that magazine issue came out. Some people latched onto it because it made them feel like they knew more than other people, I guess.

    If you designed something yourself, you would say so and be proud of it. You wouldn't say you "scratch built" it. That's because the verb "to build" and the verb "to design" are two different verbs, and they have been consistently used that way in the English language.

    Jim

  18. #118

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Ummmm, not to pick nits, but scratch building requires you designing your own plane and drawing your own plans. Building from available plans are called plans building. Not hardly the same thing.
    I love you Waco #1, but...

    Modeling? Since I was 6 or 7. I'm now 64 and still "SCRATCH BUILDING."

    From my plans or plans provided by others. It's still SCRATCH BUILDING.

    Other terms? Designed to make others feel better and take away from individual SCRATCH BUILDING efforts.

    Here's an interesting thing. Are modelers who don't SCRATCH BUILD jealous of modelers who do?

    You bet your sweet bippy they are, and there's always jealously, in this hobby, in all kinds of areas. Thing is, it's not talked about.

    No one talkes about subjects that are uncomfortable. Wanna talk about modeler's egos?

    I didn't think so.

    Charles
    Owner: CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder." cfcgraphics.com

  19. #119
    Stickbuilder's Avatar
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Ease on down to Top Gun and enter the Masters Class with one built from someone else plans, and see how far you get.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Top Gun Scale Outline Judge.
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  20. #120

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Top Gun's criteria have nothing to do with the meaning of words and phrases that have been used in the hobby for decades. They can make any rules they want to.

    Jim

  21. #121
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    Yawn................

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  22. #122

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    What is Top Gun?
    Owner: CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder." cfcgraphics.com

  23. #123
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?


    ORIGINAL: Avaiojet

    What is Top Gun?
    It's about the only contest any more where the builder of the model rules are enforced in the top classes.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  24. #124
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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    The word “scratch” comes from a horse racing term, where they would mark the dirt and start some at a “slight disadvantage” from the others. They were all using the same track and in the same race, some just had a slight disadvantage, starting from scratch.>>

    >>

    No where does it say that “scratch” is another word for designing something, designing is designing. All models are “plans built”, except ARF’s.>>

    >>

    If you design a plane and draw the plans but have a kit cut by a laser cutter and build it that would be designed by you but built from a kit. You could not say this was a scratch build.>>

    >>

    If you design a plane and draw the plan and cut the parts yourself, then you could say you designed the plan and built it from scratch.>>

    >>

    You could say designing from scratch, but you would sound ridiculous! You either designed it or you didn't. No where does “scratch build” imply designing. It is referring to the original meaning of the word, starting at a slight disadvantage to someone who had a kit cut and having to cut your own parts. I'm offended when someone tries to take away some of my glory when lets say I enlarge a plan, make my own fiberglass cowl to fit, make the mold for a proper size canopy, make structural modifications as necessary and try and tell me it's not a scratch build. >>

    But to stay true to this thread and it’s original intent, I’m glad I got into the hobby when I did, there is not really much to enjoy about watching another persons plane fly. >>

    Jet Mafia RC Turbine Flyers Seguin

  25. #125

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    RE: How Many Builders Are Left?

    But to stay true to this thread and it’s original intent, I’m glad I got into the hobby when I did, there is not really much to enjoy about watching another persons plane fly.
    There's not really much to enjoy about watching another person either.
    Owner: CFC Graphics. "Model Airplane Graphics from a Model Airplane Builder." cfcgraphics.com


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