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WACO YMF

Old 01-26-2013, 12:00 PM
  #16001
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Here's a few shots of Barth 1/3 YMF LE sheeting described above. Lots of work to go.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:03 PM
  #16002
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Second try with photos.

MH WB 132
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:11 PM
  #16003
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If you modify your wing tip profile so that it is scale, you won't have as much trouble sheeting them. The profile is less pronounced. AMR got it wrong. I offered them a set of the factory drawings, but they refused to make the changes. If you build their kit as cut, it is wrong, and a decent outline judge will have your butt for it.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:25 PM
  #16004
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

If you modify your wing tip profile so that it is scale, you won't have as much trouble sheeting them. The profile is less pronounced. AMR got it wrong. I offered them a set of the factory drawings, but they refused to make the changes. If you build their kit as cut, it is wrong, and a decent outline judge will have your butt for it.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

Bill,

It seems that several of the well known Waco kits have a symetrical airfoil. It would be difficult to modify those to get a scale looking tip. How do you judge those?

Joe

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Old 01-27-2013, 02:15 AM
  #16005
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dash7ATP


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

If you modify your wing tip profile so that it is scale, you won't have as much trouble sheeting them. The profile is less pronounced. AMR got it wrong. I offered them a set of the factory drawings, but they refused to make the changes. If you build their kit as cut, it is wrong, and a decent outline judge will have your butt for it.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

Bill,

It seems that several of the well known Waco kits have a symetrical airfoil. It would be difficult to modify those to get a scale looking tip. How do you judge those?

Joe

How does the model match the 3 view? That is the only way to judge the model.

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Old 01-27-2013, 09:38 AM
  #16006
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For you guys using or going to try Minwax Polycrylic I just covered the fuse on my Waco and filled the weave. I thinned the Polycrylic approx 20% with water. It went on very good and I did not get any bubbles in the surface. After 3 coats the fuse is ready for tapes. I will apply another 2 coats after the tapes have been applied.
Later!!
Anthony
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:22 PM
  #16007
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dash7ATP

Bill,

It seems that several of the well known Waco kits have a symetrical airfoil. It would be difficult to modify those to get a scale looking tip. How do you judge those?

Joe

Joe, you did say difficult, not impossible. Put one with a symmetrical airfoil on my table, and I'll getcha. That is unless you can find an approved 3 view of a full scale with that airfoil. I don't use what I know to be correct, but stick strictly to the 3 view. That is the only fair and unbiased way to judge a model. Same goes for enlarged tail group or lengthened fuselage or cowl. It is either right or its dead wrong. You should see some the stuff that comes across the table. Sometimes you have to stop marking things so as not to totally humiliate the modeller.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:47 PM
  #16008
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dash7ATP

Bill,

It seems that several of the well known Waco kits have a symetrical airfoil. It would be difficult to modify those to get a scale looking tip. How do you judge those?

Joe

Joe, you did say difficult, not impossible. Put one with a symmetrical airfoil on my table, and I'll getcha. That is unless you can find an approved 3 view of a full scale with that airfoil. I don't use what I know to be correct, but stick strictly to the 3 view. That is the only fair and unbiased way to judge a model. Same goes for enlarged tail group or lengthened fuselage or cowl. It is either right or its dead wrong. You should see some the stuff that comes across the table. Sometimes you have to stop marking things so as not to totally humiliate the modeller.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Bill,

Thanks for elabirating on that. It was pretty much as Iexpected it would have to be. It seems a shame to bo to the trouble to builda large plane and trick it out with a lot of detail, knowing full well it's not scale.Particularly if you plan to enter a big scale meet. Ihave been told that BVM had a few small differencesin the intake area on theearly ducted fan F-86's and provided a Three View to match the changes. Oh well.

I"m sure the flight judges have their differences as well. About eight years ago, Iwas CDfor a local Scale meet. A local fellow brought an SNJthat he had entered in Top Gun. Our judges gave him a low score for Realism of Flight because he flew the entire flight at full power. Way too fast for an SNJ. He was upset because he said, "The Top Gunjudges didn't deduct for that". What can you say?

I'm going to a lot of trouble detailing my Pica 1/5 scale, knowing beforehand Iwon't be entering it in anything other than a few fun flys. Why? Because Ienjoy it. Heck, the color scheme I'm doing is on a Classic, which the Pica "ain't" .
But, it should look good!

Joe
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:03 PM
  #16009
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Windshield Frame 2

After looking at a lot of photos and my three views, I decided the frame appeared too long. So here we go again. I basically did this one as Idid my first attempt, except Idecided to go with more but thinner strips of cut fiber glass. One of the glass types (I used two different types of cloth) did not want to fold around the corner, and keeping it stuck down caused some problems. Bottom line is Iended up with a frame that was thick in some spots and very thin in others. This was due to not keeping up with where Ihad applied the strips of fabrid. My bad! The top rear piece was very thin and basically unuseable.


Joe
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:51 PM
  #16010
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Windshield Frame 3

It appears the third times a charm. This time I tried a completely different technique of laying up the cloth. Rather than adding the glass one strip at a time, I decided to add the fabric as a whole piece over the frame as in photo two. The only problem Ihad was after I had added about eight layers, it started to lift in a few places. Itried to keep pressing it down, but the resin would not hold it.I think Ishould have used a technique Ihad forgotten about that Ilearned many years ago, Rather than trying to put the resin onthrough the first layer of cloth, a layer of resin is added to the "mold" and allowed to become tacky. Once it starts to set up, the first layer of dry cloth is pushed into the sticky resin and allowed to start to firm up. Before it's cured, the rest of the cloth and resin can be added, That first layer, being tacked downalready, should keep the rest from lifting. The areas that did lift a little are obvious where the blue tape does not show through. Iput the tape on the windshield to give me an edge to trim to. After releasing the plastic over the fuselage, the whole frame comes right off the releases from the clear film very easily due to the green PVAmold release.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:12 PM
  #16011
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I sawed slits into the covering following the suggestions you guys made and the balsa conformed to the ribs much easier. A little putty and sanding and the tips will look good.


Bill,
I'd like to become a member of the Waco Brotherhood.

Chuck
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:26 PM
  #16012
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Hello,
My project continues ... Soon I'll make a negativ form.

Albert
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:59 PM
  #16013
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NEW BROTHER ALERT !!!

We have another new Brother. Chuck l is Brother #233.

Welcome Chuck and post often.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:36 PM
  #16014
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A word to the wise!

Apparently 3M has two different "Tacs" in their fineline blue masking tapes now. I bought a new roll several weeks ago that is a darker blue than my previous product. This was 1/4 inch wide and Idon't recommend it for use over the Polycrylic. I have been doing some masking to build up edges for what would be aluminum panels on the fuselage, and around the rudder / stab joint (on my Pica kit). When I lifted the tape it took up the PolyC in several areas. I'm not sure if it affected the Nitrate dope beneath it, but Idon't think it did. In any case, it will be difficult to hide it where I have to add more PolyC to fill it in.

We live and learn................

Joe.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:19 AM
  #16015
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dash7ATP

Bill,

Thanks for elabirating on that. It was pretty much as I expected it would have to be. It seems a shame to bo to the trouble to build a large plane and trick it out with a lot of detail, knowing full well it's not scale. Particularly if you plan to enter a big scale meet. I have been told that BVM had a few small differences in the intake area on the early ducted fan F-86's and provided a Three View to match the changes. Oh well.

I''m sure the flight judges have their differences as well. About eight years ago, I was CD for a local Scale meet. A local fellow brought an SNJ that he had entered in Top Gun. Our judges gave him a low score for Realism of Flight because he flew the entire flight at full power. Way too fast for an SNJ. He was upset because he said, ''The Top Gun judges didn't deduct for that''. What can you say?

I'm going to a lot of trouble detailing my Pica 1/5 scale, knowing beforehand I won't be entering it in anything other than a few fun flys. Why? Because I enjoy it. Heck, the color scheme I'm doing is on a Classic, which the Pica ''ain't'' .
But, it should look good! [img][/img]

Joe
I can't comment on his flight scores since I'm not a flight judge. I am the scale outline judge for both Team Scale and Unlimited classes. I'm the one who uses the 3 views to establish how well the model compares to the 3 view as well as photo documentation. I do check for the validation on the 3 views and to ensure that it is an approved version. If there is any question about the validity of the 3 view, then the Chief Judge and Frank will make the decision. This is after all an invitational event, and it does belong to Frank.

I have noticed models flying outside of the scale envelope, both in regard to speed and possible maneuvers. I have commented on both. Nothing looks worse than a Cub keeping up with a war bird. The problem is that most pilots of RC aircraft use the, Yank and Bank method of flying. WFO and manhandle the sticks. To most of them the left stick is only for the throttle as well. Its probably a good thing that I'm not a flight judge. Scores would reflect what I see.

Back to the outline judging, I often see a model like the F97 and the Nose gear angle is nearly always wrong, as is the intake hole. I gig them for that one and it seems that they expect it, rather than correcting the issue. I have only seen 3 models in all my years of judging that had the outline on the money. The first one was a Tupelov Bear that was kind of small for a Top Gun entry, and used contra rotating props. The second one was the F-16 of Graeme Mears in the Thunderbird Livery. The last one was the Sopwith Camel of Marvin Ebersfeld. I judged Marvin's Camel for several years, each time marking carefully what I found outside the scale outline. Each time, Marvin would take the model home and make corrections. The next year his score would improve. The last time his model came on my table, he had accomplished a difficult task. A World War I model that was without exception a perfect rendition of the full scale. This model belongs in an aviation museum. You really do need to see it. This is what judging is for. It enables someone who wants to better the model to achieve perfection. You must be willing to make changes though. I normally see the same model for 3 years. Most builders do not make any changes, and then want to know why I keep hitting the same things. I've been asked if I keep notes on what was wrong with the model. My answer, is, No, I just look at their 3 view the same way each year, and don't see any changes to the model.

I have been accused of being the toughest judge on the circuit, but have always been told that I'm the most fair judge on the circuit as well. I am great friends with most of the builders who's models I judge. I don't care who built the model, and when its on the table, I only look at the way it follows the documentation. I've given some of my best friends low scores, and I've also given them high scores. That's why we can all remain friends. No one gets away with anything.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:55 AM
  #16016
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dash7ATP

Bill,

Thanks for elabirating on that. It was pretty much as Iexpected it would have to be. It seems a shame to bo to the trouble to builda large plane and trick it out with a lot of detail, knowing full well it's not scale.Particularly if you plan to enter a big scale meet. Ihave been told that BVM had a few small differencesin the intake area on theearly ducted fan F-86's and provided a Three View to match the changes. Oh well.

I''m sure the flight judges have their differences as well. About eight years ago, Iwas CDfor a local Scale meet. A local fellow brought an SNJthat he had entered in Top Gun. Our judges gave him a low score for Realism of Flight because he flew the entire flight at full power. Way too fast for an SNJ. He was upset because he said, ''The Top Gunjudges didn't deduct for that''. What can you say?

I'm going to a lot of trouble detailing my Pica 1/5 scale, knowing beforehand Iwon't be entering it in anything other than a few fun flys. Why? Because Ienjoy it. Heck, the color scheme I'm doing is on a Classic, which the Pica ''ain't'' .
But, it should look good! [img][/img]

Joe
I can't comment on his flight scores since I'm not a flight judge. I am the scale outline judge for both Team Scale and Unlimited classes. I'm the one who uses the 3 views to establish how well the model compares to the 3 view as well as photo documentation. I do check for the validation on the 3 views and to ensure that it is an approved version. If there is any question about the validity of the 3 view, then the Chief Judge and Frank will make the decision. This is after all an invitational event, and it does belong to Frank.

I have noticed models flying outside of the scale envelope, both in regard to speed and possible maneuvers. I have commented on both. Nothing looks worse than a Cub keeping up with a war bird. The problem is that most pilots of RC aircraft use the, Yank and Bank method of flying. WFO and manhandle the sticks. To most of them the left stick is only for the throttle as well. Its probably a good thing that I'm not a flight judge. Scores would reflect what I see.

Back to the outline judging, I often see a model like the F97 and the Nose gear angle is nearly always wrong, as is the intake hole. I gig them for that one and it seems that they expect it, rather than correcting the issue. I have only seen 3 models in all my years of judging that had the outline on the money. The first one was a Tupelov Bear that was kind of small for a Top Gun entry, and used contra rotating props. The second one was the F-16 of Graeme Mears in the Thunderbird Livery. The last one was the Sopwith Camel of Marvin Ebersfeld. I judged Marvin's Camel for several years, each time marking carefully what I found outside the scale outline. Each time, Marvin would take the model home and make corrections. The next year his score would improve. The last time his model came on my table, he had accomplished a difficult task. A World War I model that was without exception a perfect rendition of the full scale. This model belongs in an aviation museum. You really do need to see it. This is what judging is for. It enables someone who wants to better the model to achieve perfection. You must be willing to make changes though. I normally see the same model for 3 years. Most builders do not make any changes, and then want to know why I keep hitting the same things. I've been asked if I keep notes on what was wrong with the model. My answer, is, No, I just look at their 3 view the same way each year, and don't see any changes to the model.

I have been accused of being the toughest judge on the circuit, but have always been told that I'm the most fair judge on the circuit as well. I am great friends with most of the builders who's models I judge. I don't care who built the model, and when its on the table, I only look at the way it follows the documentation. I've given some of my best friends low scores, and I've also given them high scores. That's why we can all remain friends. No one gets away with anything.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Having said allthat, how are the plans coming on your Waco? I'm sure there will be a market for them!

Joe
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:49 PM
  #16017
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John, Bill, anyone

I need a refresher course on rib stitching for the Waco. If I remember correctly the rib stitch spacing is 2" inside the propwash and 3" outside the propwash. Is this correct? The 1st time I sticthed the Waco I used 2" for the entire plane but I am pretty sure it is supposed to be as I listed.

I have the rib stitching on hand for the 3" spacing and I am waiting on my order for the 2" scale spacing.
Later!!
Anthony
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:31 PM
  #16018
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     Chuck, Welcome, enjoy your build.   George
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:38 PM
  #16019
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Anthony,

Looking at picture # 3922 of the NC 14081 CD, it appears the stitching on the wings in the aileron area they used the 2" spacing (rib spacing on the ailerons being just under 2ā€ (1-7/8ā€). It may also depend on your particular plane, the time period it was covered and its primary purpose (aerobatic, transport, racing). Waco Joe would be the one to ask, he owns a full size UPF and I believe is an inspector for the EAA. You may have to send him a PM or e-mail.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:18 AM
  #16020
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Welcome back John, Haven't seen you in some time.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:56 AM
  #16021
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Bill,

I've been here daily, just haven't felt the need to comment.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:23 PM
  #16022
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Thanks John,
Well it seems there is no definitive answer. I contacted a guy from the Waco museum and he said some Waco's had 2" and 3" spaced stitching on early models and later models had all 2". I am going to go with 3" outside the prop wash and 2" inside. Not like I am going to compete with the plane anyways. The original is in pieces and the documentation does not specify.

All the newer Waco Classics appear to have 2" stitching and restorations have 2" ss well.

It's all in fun!!
Anthony
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:26 PM
  #16023
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Okay, Here is the roster to date.

WACO BROTHERHOOD MEMBERSHIP:

#1 stickbuilder
#2 Hughes500
#3 Jim Henley
#4 mmattockx
#5 CTflyboy
#6 michaelj2k
#7 Ronj10
#8 gwulle
#9 jim schroer
#10 Skinny Bob
#11 Doug
#12 Pimmnz
#13 HarryJ
No. 14 Old Git
#15 ChrisMH
#16 Nerevar
#17 Ricatic
#18 Clay H.
#19 Tripp2Loo
#20 KHodges
#21 Bill Hogue (WACO One)
#22 Mangolo (Waldo)
#23 av8ter
#24 yel914 (Rick)
#25 damifino
#26 skylarkmk1
#27 Jacque
#28 Edwin
#29 AROPLANE
#30 WacoNut (Anthony)
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#32 AERORON
#33 funkymusic
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#50 skyjet 1
#51 ZIG
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#200 GEORGE QUINN (posthumous Brother)

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#210 Claude McCullough (posthumous Brother)

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#219 Dash7ATP (Joe)


#220 Carl Hammond (posthumous Brother)

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#231 BobH
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#233 Chuck l (Chuck)

WACO Sisterhood Roster:

S-1 Janelle (Lady Stickbuilder)
S-2 Sissy Nightstalker
S-3 Barb Barbee
S-4 LadyMango (Lynda)
S-5 BUMBLE GEE BEE (Gabi)
S-6 Sue Watz
S-7 Joanie Allison (Lady Cursor)
S-8 Lady RCBOATMANIAC (Christine)

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1









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Old 02-02-2013, 01:53 PM
  #16024
mrdhud
 
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Default RE: WACO YMF

Bill,
The brother hood list sure has grown since I joined. I wonder if this is a good time to talk another T shirt run. I wear mine quite often so Iā€™m in any time.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:24 PM
  #16025
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Default RE: WACO YMF


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mrdhud

Bill,
The brother hood list sure has grown since I joined. I wonder if this is a good time to talk another T shirt run. I wear mine quite often so I’m in any time.
YES! Put me down for one. 2XL

Joe
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