rmh

I am trying to make sense of this argument- The 1000 dollar discount pricing thing is an unknown for me
as to the rest of the argument about quality - Iam at a loss in a direct comparison except to se the JR has arather pricy extra bits and the protocol is -sadly- an orphan -
I can't fault the DSMX (or the DSM2 - simply too much experience with both to believe they are not viable
Iwould expect the system to have a good rf link tho --
NOBODY has trouble getting that right . the similarities far outstrip any practical differences. Apparently, you see some bennies I don't appreciate - of course I am a newbie at all this.

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

Your ignorance is showing again, sort of like buying Robart electric retracts for your Corsair.......

Horizon Hobby DOES NOT distribute nor sell JR DMSS radio equipment. For what it's worth, if it were not for Horizon, should you have an issue with your 28X, you could not get it serviced or repaired as JR Americas, the new USA JR importer/distributor, does NOT have service capability for the JR DMSS radios.

For the record; I have a JR 12X, a Spektrum QQ DX-18 and a Futaba 18MZ so I THIINK, my personal experience with various radio manufacturers is more varied than your own; they all work.

I think perhaps you ought to back out of threads that you did not start nor which have anything to do with your ideology or brand preferences. You know what they say about opinions.

rmh

Zeeb -I think we have been snookered!
The guy likely has never seen the jr28 The features he mentioned looked like cut n paste from JR adv. On a positive note -he may be stuck with an old Audi-

chorner

http://www.horizonhobby.com/28x-28-c...031bx-jrp01050

zeeb. You're out to lunch. Follow the link. Seems you have proof right there that Horizon indeed sells JR DMSS systems. Pricing is set by JR Americas. I also happen to own radios of all 3 brands you mention. However, I do not own the 18mz but the 10 channel Futaba. What I'm saying is not an add, and to find out the bandwidth usage of the radio you need an RF spectrum analyzer.

As as for you RMH, I will gladly post a couple photos of my now "old" 2014 Audi, and my JR28x beside my DX18 and my Hangar 9 Corsair with the Robart retracts that were designed for this plane, that I had no idea sucked so bad until I went out and bought it. Just like I did with the other equipment I'm talking about

lol I can't believe you would say I'm ignorant, after finding out some equipment is better than others. Such as what you (zeeb) point out about Robarts - ignorance is not paying attention to the fact that something is bad, and going on about how good it is instead. Kind of like you two in this thread.

I think I was mistaken in thinking people who posted on forums were generally intelligent. I'm clearly in the wrong place

rmh

As the sun pulls away from the shore ---we leave the land of lulu

AndyKunz

I think you mean Ulul.

Andy

baronbrian

My Feedback: (13)

I bought my new XG14 from horizon hobby, I even downloaded the form for the 2 free receiver rebate JR americas was offering from the horizon site. Also, both Horizon and JR americas offer service for JR radios. you can download forms for sending in your equipment to either service center from the jramericas website. I think JR and horizon are playing nice together, at least a lot better than some modelers would have you believe...

baronbrian

My Feedback: (13)

I believe in a difference of quality that JR has compared to other manufactures. both in hardware and software.
My XG14 has the smoothest sticks I have ever felt. All the switches click with a mark of quality and the materials are top notch.
I believe DMSS is superior protocol to Spektrums offerings. DMSS is 4096 resolution over all 14 channels, with near zero latency. this is compared to 2048/512 resolution for the DX18. 3MHz versus 1MHz bandwidth. For me this "Orphan" protocol is JR's best feature. I know that there were growing pains for JR by using Spektrum protocol to get to the 2.4 market, but every nearly manufacturer has changed protocol along the way with advances such as telemetry, etc. We as modelers need to realize, that with competition comes advancements in technology that we benefit from.
As for difference in price, the market will bear what it will bear. For my hobby dollar, the XG14 had the features I wanted. for others, maybe the DX18 is what they want. I cannot justify the cost of a 28X or Futaba 18MZ, but the market for those radios will always be there as well.

on a side note, Rich, my dad is still flying one of your runaround designs as of this year. flies nice and fast! point rolls are sweet!

warbird_1

My Feedback: (61)

What are you talking about? go on horizon's website at see for yourself. they even sell the 28X which by the way is " In Stock" and BTW DMSS is not " new" .. it's been around for about three years if memory serves me correctly . i have a 28X ... you can't even put them in the same class as the speck 18 . .. not even close. spektrum has become popular mostly because of marketing . i dumped all my DMS2 - DMSX stuff because i couldn't by a JR brand receiver for my 12x. i refuse to use any spektrum radio gear .so i was forced to go to DMSS. which BTW is way more robust than DSMX. That's fact , not an opinion

rmh

DMSS. which BTW is way more robust than DSMX
I wish I could see ho w "a signal is more "robust".
The protocols are all different - but they all work in the same environment AND as far as I can detect - will all be shot down by a overpowering , non legal interference. By design, ALL 2.4 signals we use for out models -- MUST be limited in power -
MUST not interfere with other legal users.
So what is "robust?"
latency differences for the most part, meaningless in comparison with others.
But the stats look good on paper .
Back to added value -- If you feel the cost is worth it - then it is.
perception for many, is reality.

chorner

RMH.... for the last time buddy, not all signals are exactly the same. A signal is a signal, in it's very base concept. However, there are various characteristics to this signal. Antenna type, gain, polarization, etc. Also hardware quality differences in terms of the ability to process the signal, remove/reduce unwanted noise etc.

Radio signalling is NOT all the same, and is very complex.

The power limit on signals ONLY has to do with range. The FCC doesn't want manufacturers using 10x the signal strength and interfering with other signals because the strength from your hobby radio is so high. The 2.4Ghz bandwidth is not meant for extreme long-range usage; that's why they limit power to ~100mw so that your router doesn't block out all the others in the neighbourhood from using their wireless router on channel "A" within an "X" mile radius; as a more common example. There is much more to making it "robust" than power alone.

Within a signal, you can use a different amount of bandwidth. All signals must comply with the rules, but all signal data and the signal patterns, spread, gain, polarization, bandwidth usage, channel aggregation etc. can all be VASTLY different between manufacturers.

RMH, you're speaking strictly through an extreme lack of knowledge. It's no wonder you think DSMX and Spektrum gear is just as good... you have absolutely no clue.

How the hell is latency meaningless? Latency and resolution matter. Maybe not so much on your 4 channel wonders, but see what happens when you have a giant scale warbird, using 16 channels.... I can tell you from experience, DSMX and the Spektrum gear falls flat on its face. Try in excess of 100+ ms of latency to some control and auxiliary inputs. I can assure you, you'd notice a difference between 100+ ms to 14ms. I can show you a video of 512 step resolution vs. 2048 vs. 4096. You can see it with your own eyes the difference.

100% guaranteed you've never tried any comparison tests, and you clearly have extremely limited knowledge of radio transmission.

warbird_1

My Feedback: (61)

the stick resolution on my 28x is 65,536

rmh

"100% guaranteed you've never tried any comparison tests, and you clearly have extremely limited knowledge of radio transmission. "
You are a caution! If you had any real knowledge of this stuff you would never had made those silly comments
From a practical standpoint --the similarities far outweigh any differences
I was using 512 systems before you ever heard about it
then 1024 then 2048-
You claim you have one - use it -learn to fly and enjoy it.

chorner

RMH, are you a troll or just an idiot? I can't figure it out

"From a practical standpoint --the similarities far outweigh any differences" -- honestly, spoken like a true idiot. Wow, some hard technical data there.

You are exactly the type of old fuddy duddy that we need to get out of this hobby. You're quite honestly stifling with your misinformation. The same as Andy and the Spektrum marketers. Which... thanks for pointing out, that the 512 systems are ANCIENT ... funny enough, Spektrum equipment still has 512 bit resolution.

I'm going to take a video for you of what 512 bit resolution looks like vs. 4096 - I'll try and take a video tonight, so you can shove a sock in it Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone else can't. You sound like my grandfather who once said: "There's no way you could prove to me your $4,000 speaker setup sounds cleaner and better than my $200 speaker setup... it sounds identical!" - I replied "Grandpa, maybe you should turn up your hearing aids? Would that help?". Catch my drift, or did that go over your head?

Spektrum... Truly, "Pro. Class." - make note on the box of the DX18, they can't even say "Pro Class". They have to separate the words into "Pro. Class." lol =) Hilarious.

P.S - before you try and blast me for being uppity with an "elder", hear this: regardless of your age, respect is earned just the same. Just because you're old doesn't make you an expert. It also certainly doesn't make you an expert if you claim ancient hobby "technology" is the same with no perceivable difference today, as 'yesterday'. You're off your rocker... literally!

warbird_1

My Feedback: (61)

judging by your profile ..you seem to be the type that just likes to get on here argue with people even if your right. 61 years of experience? you have no marketplace ratings ,no gallery pics etc. you just come on and argue and belittle people . heck you can't even give your right birth year.. If you want to debate your point ,then be respectful ,but don't try to win by belittling people. that's counter productive to the hobby. If you feel your right.. back it up with facts. When i speak of DMSS being robust, i'm speaking of the protocol having the ability to stay bound or " connected" to the transmitter even with heavy RF noise because of it design . I can tell you that i have only ever heard of one failure from a DMSS radio. that being said i'm sure it won't be the last. but i can tell you that DMS-DMS2 and DMSX have had many many failures . the jury is still out on who's failed more , but judging from what i've seen here on RCU over the past few years , DMSS is the better system. i have talked to countless guys that have lost planes for no apparent reason. so......... my money is on DMSS compared with DMSX

rmh

You really are new at this stuff aren't you ?

warbird_1

My Feedback: (61)

my point exactly proven. i will not respond to anymore of your insults. have a good day .

rmh

What exactly were you looking for in a technical explanation?
How is the DMSS more immune to interference?
Are your reliability facts based on reading second/third party claims?
Marketplace and gallery page info?
I have no interest in that .
The claims of failures in radios tho - has always interested me
I look for first party reports and try to see if the info provided gives some worthwhile info.
Second party, etc., is less than helpful.

baronbrian

My Feedback: (13)

I've always known rmh to be a classy guy. I respect him. He is modest, but to my knowledge Dick has designed pattern aircraft for competition, written many aircraft reviews for magazines, And even built some of Dave Patrick's competition TOC machines. Before flying spectrum he had Jr 10x radios and always praised them. I still fly JR, and I always love reading his posts. He truly loves the technology behind our radios. Libby is still watching me.

chorner

I think we're all waiting for RMH to actually share some facts why they are similar, and why despite the technical details that are available for people to see (and some that aren't such as DMSS using 3Mhz of bandwidth... you'd only know that testing the signal with spectrum analyses)

I dug up a test another modeller did from Australia, and here's a link: http://www.archeli.com.au/forums/sho...d.php?t=144337

RMS simply provide no substantial information, and just claims "nothing matters there's no difference". It's pure horse **** whether you respect him or not He may be classy outside of a forum, but just read the posts. If he truly loved technology, he wouldn't be saying that there's no difference between 512 step resolution, 1024, 2048 and 4096. Or the 16,000 some odd steps of resolution on the new JR 28x gimbal setup - which if you do the math, and know how to program... it means even if you lower your throws, and lower your stick movement next to nothing... you still have gobs of resolution at the sticks and transmitter available to output a full 4096 step resolution at the servo.

Think about it... RMH knows nothing when it comes to this stuff, or he'd be backing these facts instead of being naive.

LarsL

I read this dribble from all of you who put down any brand of radio. I can practically feel your frustration through the Ether. It makes me laugh to read the childish rants of "my radio is better than yours." My data proves it... yours proves nothing. I must live in a different universe because at my club, everyone who flies with Futaba, Spectrum DSM2/DSMX, JR DMSS, Jeti, Airtronics, or any of the other established brands, is delighted with their radio. Even the guys trying the new latecomers like FRSKY like them fly precisely, and aren't having aircraft auger in due to signal issues. On top of that I have never heard anyone tell anyone else that their radio system is more robust, more accurate, flies better or whatever. None of you guys go to Nall, WBOTR, WOD, IRCHA, The Nats, or any other big gathering because you don't hear it there either. Either that or you keep quiet?

Lars

warbird_1

My Feedback: (61)

i have been to Nall several times as well as WOD . i'm not a aerobatic guy so i generally don't do those gigs. those dribbles you refer to are opinions based on peoples experiences . sometimes that's a more accurate source than a scientific data. I won't speak for the others but i have read and have personally seen a lot of spek stuff fail. that was my whole point to posting here. weather spek is good or bad isn't for me to decide. i just was sharing my PERSONAL opinion that i don't trust spektrum and that i like the DMSS system .. that's it . If i had to chose between skektrum and nothing i would use spektrum ,but i do have a choice...

LarsL

I don't hear this sort of dribble (opinions) and that is what it is, at any of those events... none, never. Maybe people are just aching inside to let someone know their Spectrum signal is not up to snuff with their own system. Then there is the anonymity of the Internet.

Lars

chorner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMsNb_ytF0

Here's a video of a Joe Nall attendee talking about how he's noticed the difference in his new 28x.

I think you do live at a different club, since I know specifically of one case where at my club, 3 guys swapped radios because something or someone in the area added some form of new 2.4Ghz interference, causing signal drop outs of their Spektrum gear. Granted, a couple of these guys were running older DSM2 equipment.

To your point that "everyone loves their radio", you must indeed be in some other universe. At the clubs I attend, I've personally had no less than 6 people discuss and comment on radio choices and how Spektrum is great entry level equipment and can stay with you for a while, but that JR, Jeti and Futaba make far better radios and associated components as a whole. Higher quality, better products. Most people at any club I've been to, are hesitant to put down whatever equipment choices they've made simply because for most... that is like taking a personal "ego" hit. I know a few guys who when I purchased my new radio, immediately commented on how it was "unnecessary" and how their DX6 with Orange RX receivers was an awesome, and affordable combo.

I think you're just hanging with the wrong crowd? Very few men and women alike are able to set aside their own bias, and admit the items they've purchased or chose to use at whatever point aren't "awesome". It's just the general psychology of the average population. For myself however... if tomorrow I was given a Futaba 18MZ, and a Jeti radio... and I had 2 weeks to compare all 3, I would select the "best" that suited me. However, that wouldn't make all the other radios *garbage* unless they truly were.

The Spektrum stuff I may be a little harsh on for the sake of conversation with RMH who swears there's no difference (Spektrum DX18's for example surely are very popular, and they wouldn't be so popular if they failed every time you hit the field), but you can immediately tell by both holding and using both radios, as well as the associated receivers and equipment that goes with the radio. Also, the technical differences are what also adds up to make the system as a whole, much better, on top of the other quality features. Something again, you cannot argue, that all brands and radios within those brands are equal. If we were comparing a Spektrum DX8 to a DX9, to a DX18, there are even differences there in build, design, some quality differences, software, capability etc. So even within brands one who's honest, can admit differences.

I could go on... but again, I find too many people have their heads up their rear in any branch of RC with some kind of attitude. With radio gear and multiple planes etc. I can see why one would try to remain brand loyal... it's quite an undertaking to swap receivers and setups between brands. It was quite an undertaking for myself to *finally* drop all Spektrum stuff (and oh no! no more BNF!) and switch over; so don't think I didn't second guess myself multiple times.

Anyhow... I think my "contribution" to this thread is over. Mostly it just annoys me when you see false marketing, and people who don't see the value, and the differences in the value provided, as well as distinct target markets, quality etc. etc. etc. basically, choice, and being honest about what it is they are buying is a good thing and I wish more people were like that. I've bought enough of this stuff to know which equipment has constant "gotchas" and which equipment has less to none. Robart is another company I will steer clear from if I can avoid it, in terms of landing gear. Constant QC issues, even on equipment I had one of their reps "Personally select and go over" after the 3rd time something broke on the bench.

LarsL

You know I didn't have to, but I went back to the beginning of this thread and reviewed the OP's question which was, do DMSS and DMSX work together? I see that Andy Kuntz, RMH, and others came in and responded correctly that they are incompatible as they are discreet systems. Even with Warbird_1 coming in at most #3 to state that "DMSS is a much more robust format than the old DMSX," the posts continued to revolve around the OP's question in helping him sort that out with Horizon on a model he sounded like he was interested in. None of the folks in those posts ever stated or boasted that DSMX or DSM2 was better than any other manufacturer's. Andy made a clarifying comment in response to Warbird_1, that DMSX is not an old Spectrum system, it is their latest system; DSM2 is their older generation. Again, just clarification and Andy never in this entire thread said DSMX is better than DMSS.

Now you Chorner jumped in right after that in post #23 and made the statement, and I'm paraphrasing your 3 paragraph response, "DSMX isn't nearly as good as DMSS." It all went downhill from there. If you and Warbrd_1 could have stayed out of it, it all would have ended with the OP's question being answered. That would have been it as he is happy with his equipment (he says so in post #6, read it). But... you couldn't help yourself.

Lars