SoCalSal

My Feedback: (16)

I ate one of McDonald's burgers just the other day, It tasted like it was grilled off shore. Are you 100% sure they are not cooked off shore?

Barlingbomber

Its interesting to follow the arguments here and not that they mainly focus on economics and the cost of US Labour(Laobor to you guys) As an Englishman we actually see the US economy as quite weak as the dollar has dropped steadily against European economies. Leaving that all aside however the issue is surely what Mie refers to in his post. If you are a real builder you won't buy the ARF just because its 20 bucks cheaper. Although I do enjoy flying, I don't do it that often (and so am quite average at it). To me the thrill of a box full of wood, ribsm formers stringers all lying down flat and the knowledge that with a little patience they can be assembled into a three dimensional object that will actualy fly, is what draws me into the workshop and keeps me in the hobby(and will do until I can no longer see or walk!).

The reason thet Jack Stafford kits is no longer with us is that not enough young people share that passion. In the 60s I remember that the image of Dad building a kit with his son, be it plastic or RC or whatever, was everywhere, an American staple image if you like. I lived in the US as a lad (in the 60s) and it was my luck because I got bitten by the bug and have had it ever since. Times have changed. The kids today are in a different world with a different pace and different pressures. Modelling no longer fits the mold and I suspect it never will again. Flying is a more immediate thrill and the ARF is the fastest route to that goal. It has little to do with China or cheap labour. ARFs would still outsell kits if they were made in the US.

I'll get off my soapbox now and ask a quick question. The reason I looked up this thread is that I'm looking for a set of instructions for the MOoney Ovation. I bought one second hand and there were none in the box (2 plan sheets only) As there are a bucket load of ABS parts for the interior, I am guessing some sort of instructions were included. Can anyone help?

Julius-Alexander

I have to agree, the lack of education is a huge problem in this country... but who is faulty?

madtr

I dont think its a lack of education more than its more of the instant gratification and some laziness,my dad taught me to build plastic model kits and i continued to do so for many years,but when i tried to teach my children building anything r/c planes and cars they wanted to fly it or drive it but wanted nothing to do with the construction of it,they are so use to video games and rtr run stuff that they have no curiosity to as how it works and our current education system is telling them that they are smarter and know more than their parents.When i was in school the shop classes were always full with kids who wanted to know and learn and now its a different story as they all want to graduate to high pay desk jobs that rarely exist than work any task that involves skilled use of their hands.

Barlingbomber

Yes indeed there seems to be this TV created image that all you do is graduate and move into a 100k plus executive job. What I find interesting however is just how insecure and fragile these kids really are when you get a little closer ¨to how they really function. I criticised one the other day for twice failing to follow a company dress code (wearing his ID badge so it wasn't something petty)and on the second warning I said pretty sharply that I hoped I wasn't going to have to give another one. The kid later complained that although I was right, he didn't like the way I'd said it. I pointed out to him that what I said he deserved and that quite frankly he was going to have to toughen up a bit and have a thicker skin if he was going to cut it in the cutthroat world out there. I don't know if its education or unrealistic expectations or what but I can tell you for all the instant gratification and thrills, I don't come across a lot of kids who feel really satisfied and happy.

But I bet when SoCalSal stood back and looked at that 1/3 Waco all ready to go, he got a feeling of satisfaction that most of our young will never feel. For me thats where creative hobies play a role. The young will tell you all you want to hear about self esteem. But I wonder how many know where to go and find it. Ifeel sorry for anyone who doesn't know the pleasure of creating something from a box of bits but I do have to say that however our youth got to where they are, we have to face the fact that we probably put them there.


by the way I can spell but my typing stinks so sorry for all the Typos

8178

My Feedback: (17)

Very sad news but if people keep buying ARFs it will continue until all the kit manufacturers are gone. As consumers we get to decide how it will be.

I admit that over the years in a moment of weakness I’ve bought a few ARFs but mostly American made. It has been many years since I’ve bought an ARF but about eighteen months ago bought a Chinese ARF but sent back because of the poor quality. The best part is that it cost the manufacturer $30 shipping to take it back. I prefer building from plans and kits anyhow so I’ve decided that there is no reason to buy ARFs and support a country that buys very little from the US. Why buy from a country that puts our American companies out of business.

Mode One

I left model railroading and came back to R/C because the model railroading hobby was doing the same thing. Simple $3.50 freight car kits were being replaced with $15-$20.00 ready to run freight cars. $20-$25.00 locomotive kits, were being replaced by $75-$150.00 ready to run locomotives. Nobody wanted to take the 15 minutes to one hour it takes to put a freight car kit together or 4-5 hours it takes to assemble a locomotive kit.

I came back to R/C because I thought; well, at least if kits stop being produced, I can buy the balsa and plans or draw-up my own plans and still build model airplanes. I sure see myself scratching many airplanes in the next 10-15 years of good health I have left.

I'm becoming convinced that this is a sign that I AM talented, special and gifted. I am also a machinist, as opposed to a machine operator. I have skills which are becoming very rare, indeed. I also have the patience and skills it takes to build things with my hands and get great satisfaction from doing so. The folks whom can not do this or refuse to give it a try, don't know what they are missing and no amount of telling them this fact, can convince them otherwise! It is truly their loss!

ma_mulcahy

I can certainly appreciate Barlingbomber's viewpoint. While the US may be an economic powerhouse today, our nation is definitely on the decline. The state of the RC industry is but one barometer. We have long been consumers and our creative efforts are getting weaker and weaker all the time. I can see it with the company I work for now. All the real creative work is done overseas and we simply "manage" the process. It won't be long before everything is done offshore and the only thing we do here is grill hamburgers. Well, we'll probably fix cars too because it's too expensive to ship them to Thailand for an oil change. With the rate at which creative jobs are being moved offshore, it's only a matter of time. If I'm lucky, I've got another 25 years left and I figure the economic fortunes of the US will be a fond memory within this timeframe.

As another supporting factor, look how the educational system here is trying to boost studies in the science and technology fields. It's hard and it requires one to think which the younger generations are loath to do...... instant gratification is so much easier than trying to digest and apply differential calculus.

Well, time to get off my soapbox. After all, it is the New Year and I must put out my happy face before returning to my office on Tuesday.

Mike

manks7477

The problem with small kit builders is two fold;

1) Society to a very large degree has evolved into a "microwave" culture; give it to me fast, cheap, easy and at a low cost. ARFs are this hobby's answer to frozen foods. Too many who enter this hobby want to fly period, ARFs have allowed that to happen.

2) The opening of Asian economies, such as China, Tiawan and Vietnam have given manufacturers a very large, very cheap and reasonably efficient labour force, making it possilble to produce ARFs at a price acceptable to the US Markets. This labour force can also produce wood kits at a much lower cost than a US company can.

Jack Stafford ran into the classic problem that they were producing a product at a thin profit margin, that not enough people wanted in the marketplace.

I for one do not like ARFs, I really like the building part of this hobby, (I wish I had more time to actually fly), but it is a reality that more ARFs and RTFs will be coming out and fewer kits. Look at the reviews in the RC Mags, they are all for ARFs, five years ago they were mostly for KITS.

I am thinking about moving from kits to building from plans, I will always stay away from ARFs unless I have no flyable planes ready some season (Can't see that happening right now as I have three flight ready plane plus two that just need the motor and electronics and two on the building board and two waiting to be covered - yes my wife is losing her mind with me right now!)

Daryld12

My Feedback: (37)

I have to disagree with you on one point. I have a "Pilot" Super Decathlon and the quality is second to none not to mention that it is one of the most "scale" looking Decathlons out there. The airplanes lines are very accurate to full scale. This as opposed to Bud Nosen kits which are far from "scale" and quality that is lacking. They also use low grade balsa that is so dense and heavy that you might confuse it with "light" hardwood.

Daryl

Yak18

My Feedback: (11)

I have to disagree as well. I built most of the Pilot kits. They were more expensive than US kits and they were head and shoulders above any US kit besides maybe Proctor. That is why I paid the higher prices for them. Pilot kits reached a standard back then that today's cad designed and laser cut kits have recently reached.

Jack Stafford kits weren't that great to begin with and that's why sales never materialized IMHO. Those who built them (I built one) did not get too excited when they returned to the market because we remembered them and I'm sorry, but they just couldn't compete with what is available today.

Yak

halflight

My Feedback: (5)

Hey clubnut, like the Ercoupe..what engine?

Mode One

Like Halflight, like I ain't seen Clubnut here!

WacoNut

The Coupe is an excellent flying plane, I power mine with an OS .61 4-stroke and my buddies(I built it) is powered by an OS .52 4-stroke. Both planes are excellent flying planes and the .52 4-stoke in the better engine for the Coupe.
Anthony

Barlingbomber

Gentlepersons (doesn't sound the same as Gentlemen but its politically correct and thats all that counts isn't it!!)

as we're on a Jack Stafford thread, I need to speak to someone who has built the Mooney Ovation. Any help would be most welcome on the thread or privately as you wish ,

thanks,

Phil

ckangaroo70

My Feedback: (51)

I own both kits and ARF's. I really don't blame someone for buying ARF's because some of them are built pretty good, and fly nice. The problem I foresee in the future is that ARF prices will continually raise as the options for kits is slowly erased. Once the kit market has been virtually destroyed, and the U.S finally puts enough pressure on foriegn manufaturers to up there labor standards to be more in line with American standards, I think you will see a dramatic increase in ARF prices. Whether you believe it is right or wrong, the U.S has for a long time know been trying to pressure these countries that they trade with to bring there cost more in line with U.S prices under fair trade. You see this in almost every market whether it be textiles, autos, perishables, etc. etc. U.S steel has been hard hit by foreign steel, and that industry has been lobbying for years to get something done there in the way of being able to compete. Now many might say Americans are overpaid, but something has to be done. Americans either lower there standards, or the foreign manufacturers have to up theres. Well...I for one am not going to side with me taking a pay cut. To much blood, sweat, and tears has been spilt by those born before me to insure that we as Americans have a higher standard of living.

So, the way I see it. When you are ready to go back to building kits like a Jack Stafford model after the ARF prices have sky rocketed due to cornering the Market, and new future trade agreements, you are going to have very little to chose from. There will always be kit makers, but even now we are seeing the selection dwindling every month.

With all this said, I am not saying people should quit buying ARF's if that is what they want to buy. All I am saying is don't be surprised when you decide that you want to build a kit in the future that the selection is not what it was. I think it will really hit home someday when you have to go on ebay to buy a Sig 4 star kit for $200 because that manufacturer hung it up, or got out of the kit market and into strictly ARF's like the direction Great Planes is heading. Almost everyone I can think of at our Club has built at least one or two Sig kits. I can't imagine what people will think if they ever dissapear. Jack Stafford on the other hand was a Scale kit company who catered to a smaller crowd, but we should still be sad to see them go, and see it as things to come!

My opinions only! So easy on the bashing!

dicknadine

another example of what is happening to our economy with all the rest of our needed things. try to buy an American<USA> product, hammer saw, automobile, tv's, on and on. its all instant gratification. buy without wondering or worrying where its manufactured. ask WAL MART their opinion on the subject. also where do you by so many of your daily needs?? WalMart probably. where does your meat- BEEF- come from, etc, etc. dick

donniercjet

My Feedback: (10)

i agree 110% i am trying to teach my children "how it works" i'm not having much luck. they tell me " if it breaks dad will fix it" or i'll buy another one. driving me nuts!!!

Mode One

ckangaroo70, I'm with ya, Brother. No bashing here.