Jetcat 180RX
01-17-2012, 03:23 AM
#2
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
Hi Anurag,
You have very good timing! I took delivery a week ago and carried out some ground tests on Sunday in my Airworld Cougar.
I have to say the installation on the new RX range is silly easy. It makes the idea of swapping a turbine between models even more feasible and quick.
Start up was perfect and very very smooth and the usual JetCat reliablilty shone through. Learn low was spot on and I was well happy...........until I opened the throttle from idle to half power - I thought something was wrong. There was no reaction for about 3-4 seconds and then it spooled up.
I tried again. The same. Stopped and restarted and the same. Checked the ECU and all parameters looked fine.
Tried again. Idled for ten seconds, moved stick to half power, counted to three and returned the stick to idle before the turbine even responded.
As a replacement to the 160SX and as a "180", I was expecting more power and at least the same throttle response. In fact, BVM's website advertises it with "The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay. New ECU V10.0" so if I was lucky I was hoping for a little quicker response.
There was another user of the 180 who I found had the exact same issue so it wasn't just mine.
So, with everything not seeming right I spoke to Jetcat and nearly fell off my chair. Apparently this is the throttle response they have specifically mapped in the ECU. They say it is to ensure totally reliable operation from -20 to +50 i.e Finland to Dubai and they know it "may not be great".
I asked why, when it is likely 80% of their customer base don't fly in extremes, they don't have a 'normal' weather mapping. Their response was that they would think about a "European" ECU mapping but this could take some time!
I love JetCat turbines. I've never had any problems with them and have supported them but I do think they have really dropped the ball on this one. To discontinue the 160SX and replace it with a turbine that has throttle response similar to my original 8yr old P120 surprises me.
I only hope they pull out the stops and sort this out as at full power the engine was amazingly strong!
Hope that helps? [&:]
PS I'd be interested to hear from other who may have used one in the more extreme environments to see what you think of the response and how it compares to other turbines you're running.
You have very good timing! I took delivery a week ago and carried out some ground tests on Sunday in my Airworld Cougar.
I have to say the installation on the new RX range is silly easy. It makes the idea of swapping a turbine between models even more feasible and quick.
Start up was perfect and very very smooth and the usual JetCat reliablilty shone through. Learn low was spot on and I was well happy...........until I opened the throttle from idle to half power - I thought something was wrong. There was no reaction for about 3-4 seconds and then it spooled up.
I tried again. The same. Stopped and restarted and the same. Checked the ECU and all parameters looked fine.
Tried again. Idled for ten seconds, moved stick to half power, counted to three and returned the stick to idle before the turbine even responded.
As a replacement to the 160SX and as a "180", I was expecting more power and at least the same throttle response. In fact, BVM's website advertises it with "The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay. New ECU V10.0" so if I was lucky I was hoping for a little quicker response.
There was another user of the 180 who I found had the exact same issue so it wasn't just mine.
So, with everything not seeming right I spoke to Jetcat and nearly fell off my chair. Apparently this is the throttle response they have specifically mapped in the ECU. They say it is to ensure totally reliable operation from -20 to +50 i.e Finland to Dubai and they know it "may not be great".
I asked why, when it is likely 80% of their customer base don't fly in extremes, they don't have a 'normal' weather mapping. Their response was that they would think about a "European" ECU mapping but this could take some time!
I love JetCat turbines. I've never had any problems with them and have supported them but I do think they have really dropped the ball on this one. To discontinue the 160SX and replace it with a turbine that has throttle response similar to my original 8yr old P120 surprises me.
I only hope they pull out the stops and sort this out as at full power the engine was amazingly strong!
Hope that helps? [&:]
PS I'd be interested to hear from other who may have used one in the more extreme environments to see what you think of the response and how it compares to other turbines you're running.
01-17-2012, 03:40 AM
#4
RE: Jetcat 180RX
Mark,
I have the same feeling about the P100RX, I flew it this weekend for the first time, the response was set to "Normal" from factory, with that it took forever to spool up, I changed it to fast, that helped a bit, but still slow !
(I feel that my 160SX's and 200SX's are "lightning fast" compared to this)
I have the same feeling about the P100RX, I flew it this weekend for the first time, the response was set to "Normal" from factory, with that it took forever to spool up, I changed it to fast, that helped a bit, but still slow !
(I feel that my 160SX's and 200SX's are "lightning fast" compared to this)
01-17-2012, 03:48 AM
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
Anurag,
I also own a 180rx and have in fact got 2 hours run time on mine already. I am the other user that Mark refers to and we have been conversing offline. My experience is exactly the same as Marks, in that its simple to install, it starts and runs beautifully but the spool up time from idle is 'not good'. It reminds me of the original P120/P80's from back when I started flying turbines in 2000/2001.
I do believe Jetcat will act on our comments and resolve the issue but the clock is ticking. I was planning on upgrading my second P160sx to a P180 but I am holding fire until I see some resolution from Jetcat.
In the meantime, I will continue to fly mine in my Ultra Lightning as the extra power over the P160sx is fun and I am just relearning to use a manual idle up(i.e don't close the throttle all the way if you want it to spool up quickly)
Geoff.
I also own a 180rx and have in fact got 2 hours run time on mine already. I am the other user that Mark refers to and we have been conversing offline. My experience is exactly the same as Marks, in that its simple to install, it starts and runs beautifully but the spool up time from idle is 'not good'. It reminds me of the original P120/P80's from back when I started flying turbines in 2000/2001.
I do believe Jetcat will act on our comments and resolve the issue but the clock is ticking. I was planning on upgrading my second P160sx to a P180 but I am holding fire until I see some resolution from Jetcat.
In the meantime, I will continue to fly mine in my Ultra Lightning as the extra power over the P160sx is fun and I am just relearning to use a manual idle up(i.e don't close the throttle all the way if you want it to spool up quickly)
Geoff.
01-17-2012, 03:49 AM
#6
Thread Starter
RE: Jetcat 180RX
Does this have anything to do with the fact that jetcat have kept the diameter to the smaller 160/120 size? Was the acceleration of the classic 180 (larger dia) better then the 180RX?
01-17-2012, 03:57 AM
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
Vin - yes everything has been set to fast.
Anurag - I am told the design of the combustion chamber has changed to enable more power to be extracted for the 180 but the down side is that its more sensitive to changes in pressure/temperature.
Anurag - I am told the design of the combustion chamber has changed to enable more power to be extracted for the 180 but the down side is that its more sensitive to changes in pressure/temperature.
01-17-2012, 03:58 AM
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: Ragz
Does the 140RX do the same? I am about to install it in my Ultra flash this evening... It is going to replace a classic P120.
Does the 140RX do the same? I am about to install it in my Ultra flash this evening... It is going to replace a classic P120.
Colin
01-17-2012, 04:00 AM
#10
RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: Vincent
Did you try changing the throttle setting from ''normal'' to fast?? Two of my friends have P-100`s and they had a slow spool up until the setting was changed, now they are fine.
Vin..
Did you try changing the throttle setting from ''normal'' to fast?? Two of my friends have P-100`s and they had a slow spool up until the setting was changed, now they are fine.
Vin..
yes, the P100 was set to "normal" from factory, I changed it to "Fast", and it was indeed a little faster, but not "lightning" as f.ex the 160SX and 200SX
01-17-2012, 04:03 AM
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
Anurag,
Without doing 'proper' testing I can't say 100% but I would suggest they are about the same. The larger 180 may even be a little quicker with the 180RX at 'normal' settings.
The larger 180 also puts out more power - 45lbs don't forget albeit from a much larger can size.
Rgds,
Mark
Without doing 'proper' testing I can't say 100% but I would suggest they are about the same. The larger 180 may even be a little quicker with the 180RX at 'normal' settings.
The larger 180 also puts out more power - 45lbs don't forget albeit from a much larger can size.
Rgds,
Mark
01-17-2012, 05:16 AM
#12
RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: Carsten Groen
Vincent,
yes, the P100 was set to ''normal'' from factory, I changed it to ''Fast'', and it was indeed a little faster, but not ''lightning'' as f.ex the 160SX and 200SX
ORIGINAL: Vincent
Did you try changing the throttle setting from ''normal'' to fast?? Two of my friends have P-100`s and they had a slow spool up until the setting was changed, now they are fine.
Vin..
Did you try changing the throttle setting from ''normal'' to fast?? Two of my friends have P-100`s and they had a slow spool up until the setting was changed, now they are fine.
Vin..
yes, the P100 was set to ''normal'' from factory, I changed it to ''Fast'', and it was indeed a little faster, but not ''lightning'' as f.ex the 160SX and 200SX
01-17-2012, 05:47 AM
#13
RE: Jetcat 180RX
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only way to stabilize Acycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Anyway, if this is the case, only a hardware solution is going to cure the problem ( ie a different combustion chamber/ compressor/ diffuser/ NGV/ turbine wheel )
In that case, the only way to stabilize Acycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Anyway, if this is the case, only a hardware solution is going to cure the problem ( ie a different combustion chamber/ compressor/ diffuser/ NGV/ turbine wheel )
01-17-2012, 05:51 AM
#14
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: olnico
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
] 
01-17-2012, 06:11 AM
#16
RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Then that would seem to be the worst replacement of a fast throttling P160SX there could be. What were they thinking?!!! []
ORIGINAL: olnico
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
] These engines have a legendary reliability...
01-17-2012, 06:19 AM
#17
RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Then that would seem to be the worst replacement of a fast throttling P160SX there could be. What were they thinking?!!! []
ORIGINAL: olnico
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
] I have been a Jetcat flyer for many years and own three sx series motors. When i watched my friend running his P-100 in the start up area i asked for the tx and did some taxing with his jet. I was surprised how slow the spool up was compared to my sx motors. He switched it to fast and is happy with the performance now.
Vin...
01-17-2012, 06:34 AM
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: olnico
Well not automatically. Throttle response is not everything and we used to be quite happy with the first P-80 and P-120.
These engines have a legendary reliability...
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Then that would seem to be the worst replacement of a fast throttling P160SX there could be. What were they thinking?!!! []
ORIGINAL: olnico
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
] These engines have a legendary reliability...
OK, I appreciate that but when a manufacturer launches a new product to replace the previous version I'm sure you wouldn't expect it to take you back a decade in terms of performance. There is no point in doing this for 3.5lbs extra thrust. I'd have stuck with my 160SXs had I known. Bit misleading to use marketing such as "The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay" etc especially when they knew all along it would be very slow.
Rgds,
Mark
01-17-2012, 06:47 AM
#21
RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Oliver,
OK, I appreciate that but when a manufacturer launches a new product to replace the previous version I'm sure you wouldn't expect it to take you back a decade in terms of performance. There is no point in doing this for 3.5lbs extra thrust. I'd have stuck with my 160SXs had I known. Bit misleading to use marketing such as ''The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay'' etc especially when they knew all along it would be very slow.
Rgds,
Mark
ORIGINAL: olnico
Well not automatically. Throttle response is not everything and we used to be quite happy with the first P-80 and P-120.
These engines have a legendary reliability...
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Then that would seem to be the worst replacement of a fast throttling P160SX there could be. What were they thinking?!!! []
ORIGINAL: olnico
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
] These engines have a legendary reliability...
OK, I appreciate that but when a manufacturer launches a new product to replace the previous version I'm sure you wouldn't expect it to take you back a decade in terms of performance. There is no point in doing this for 3.5lbs extra thrust. I'd have stuck with my 160SXs had I known. Bit misleading to use marketing such as ''The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay'' etc especially when they knew all along it would be very slow.
Rgds,
Mark
01-17-2012, 06:56 AM
#22
RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: quist
They didn't mention how slow they moved the stick
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Oliver,
OK, I appreciate that but when a manufacturer launches a new product to replace the previous version I'm sure you wouldn't expect it to take you back a decade in terms of performance. There is no point in doing this for 3.5lbs extra thrust. I'd have stuck with my 160SXs had I known. Bit misleading to use marketing such as ''The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay'' etc especially when they knew all along it would be very slow.
Rgds,
Mark
ORIGINAL: olnico
Well not automatically. Throttle response is not everything and we used to be quite happy with the first P-80 and P-120.
These engines have a legendary reliability...
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Then that would seem to be the worst replacement of a fast throttling P160SX there could be. What were they thinking?!!! []
ORIGINAL: olnico
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
Guys, it could be that the combustion chamber is so much pushed to the limit that it is prone to flameouts during acceleration.
In that case, the only wy to stabilize the cycle is to slow down the acceleration.
It could be that the issue that delayed the 100RX production is also the same.
Only time will tell.
] These engines have a legendary reliability...
OK, I appreciate that but when a manufacturer launches a new product to replace the previous version I'm sure you wouldn't expect it to take you back a decade in terms of performance. There is no point in doing this for 3.5lbs extra thrust. I'd have stuck with my 160SXs had I known. Bit misleading to use marketing such as ''The engine follows throttle commands almost without delay'' etc especially when they knew all along it would be very slow.
Rgds,
Mark
01-17-2012, 07:33 AM
#23
RE: Jetcat 180RX
Got a mail from jetcat, they have this problem solved on the P180RX it appears, they will swap my ECU's and that should fix it
The P100RX is due for the testbench next week, they will do the same fix to that also
So, it seems there is some progress [8D]
The P100RX is due for the testbench next week, they will do the same fix to that also
So, it seems there is some progress [8D]
01-17-2012, 07:57 AM
#25
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RE: Jetcat 180RX
ORIGINAL: Carsten Groen
Got a mail from jetcat, they have this problem solved on the P180RX it appears, they will swap my ECU's and that should fix it
The P100RX is due for the testbench next week, they will do the same fix to that also
So, it seems there is some progress [8D]
Got a mail from jetcat, they have this problem solved on the P180RX it appears, they will swap my ECU's and that should fix it
The P100RX is due for the testbench next week, they will do the same fix to that also
So, it seems there is some progress [8D]
now that make me feel better!! hope those new rx come with updated ecu.