mclintock

My Feedback: (3)

Aha, leaky! You guys with these CS and Brodak may want to check to see if the sleeve-head seal leaks.
With a prop on, put some machine oil on the junction of the anodized head and cast crancase to see if bubbles are present when the prop is turned through TDC. Both of my CS .061 engines leaked like the Bush cabinet.

I got the top of the sleeve to flat using a diamond 'wetstone' steel plate, extra fine. Also I rubbed the copper shim on the diamond sharpening plate to deburr it and make it flatter.. lots of oil and my finger..

Cleaned all and re-assembled with a thin smear of thick grease and it no longer leaks..

I don't know yet if it's gonna make any difference in the starting and running, but i think having the head not leak can't hurt!

GrahamC

I'll have to check for leaks before I try and run mine.

I was looking at the 2 engines I have last night and I tried to loosen the head on one but it is Tight! I have the right size wrench and I will make a solid mount to bolt it to. Any tricks to getting the head off other than mounting it solidly, using the right size wrench and the delicate application of some heat from a hot air heat gun?

I also tried to take the muffler off of one. Removed the hold down screw but I could not get the muffler to budge by hand. Anyone notice this same kind of fit on their motors?

I have a couple of Norvel Freedom XL plugs. Once I get the head off one of the engines and get the head/gasket fit sorted out I plan on making the mod as described by Larrey Reneger (designman) on the Stuka Stunt forum thread I posted earlier. I will post my results. Spring/Summer flying season is starting to get going now so it may take a while to get any results of this mod.

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada.

mclintock

My Feedback: (3)

To remove the head I followed CP's advice and gently clamped the engine in a vise, gently! I put masking tape on the jaws so no marks were made on the mounting wings of the engine, then used a cresent wrench with tape on the jaws to remove the head. I was like you, afraid to put that much force on it, until i was sure it was really meant to come off having read how CP did it. I didn't use heat, but the engine had been run several times.

The muffler seems to be 'swear fit', where you take the bolt out, then swear at it pressing alternatetively on either end of the muffler with your thumbs or whatever until it starts to rock and move away from the engine. Be sure to swear it back on lest the bolt not have enough to thread into and the bolt could pull out the aluminum threads, being a steel bolt. I once thought the muffler was one piece, but in fact it's three!

Still havent run again since plugging the leaks, but it sure snaps better..

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Ok guys so here is the down and dirty so far. Today I recieved the CS .061 from CP. On first inspection it looks pretty good.....but that was till I took it apart to see what I was working with. It's plain to see where the low cost comes from. The piston has a huge spot on it's side where there is a flaw or something in the stock the piston was made from. The pin is held in with clips on both ends and the rod can just flop back and forth the full length because the inside of the piston is cut straight. The only thing that keeps the rod on the crankpin is then just the backplate. There is also a metal stock flaw in the crankshaft, though it's spot is smaller. One thing to note with the crank, it has a funky cut that connects the intake port to the cut out at the front of the crank. The only thing I can think is that it's to get lube to the nose of the crank. With all of that aside I think I have found the real reason for the engines lack of power. There is NO intake bypass ports cast into the crankcase. The sides are straight with the cylinder having a bevel at the bottom. The bottom of the intake ports are pretty sharp so I can see where the engine would have problems getting fuel into the cylinder. The picture I attached of the liner is of the exhaust port but you can see what I mean about the bottom of the sleeve.. I am going to do alittle porting work on the sleeve to help it get some more fuel and then go from there. I fully understand that this is a sport engine but I think it should at least be able to turn a Cox 6x3 at 15,000rpm before I would even think about using it in a plane.

LAter,
Tim

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Tim, sounds like you have a good plan. I've seen the spiral cut groove before on a FOX engine and it was explained that it was for keeping fuel from spraying out the front end. If you ask me, it looks more like a way to provide oil to the front end, but what do I know? If you can get 3,000 more from this engine with a 6x3, then you will have done real good!

jetpack

My Feedback: (1)

Wow thats a nasty looking piston casting. I would scrub that out with a brass brush and gently polish the edges so it doesnt wear to razor edges and start to break off slivers from the edges of the craters. It must be really dark in that factory not to see that one.

The sleeve looks like the ports are all relieved crooked where the second operation didn't line up with the first. Hard to tell.

The crank doesn't look too bad, a little rough in the cutting tool areas but the grinding looks ok.

Your idea about relieving the ports isnt a bad idea if the crankcase casting isnt cored for the passage, I'm sure that will boost things a bit also.

mclintock

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,
I never took out my sleeve, but I was wondering just how in the sam hill the fuel was supposed to get to the intake ports, I couldnt see a way it got there. How'd you get the sleeve out, pry between the top lip and the crankase? I was scared to do that.

Those birth marks on the piston are funny, I wonder if mine has any.

I have a car/helicopter version of a norvel .061 whose crank has a similar spiral groove in it.

Once the intakes are created and the head is sealed, and maybe with some experimentation with rossi extra hot plugs or henry heads, these engines may someday work ok.

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Well here is my first running update. I worked the ports the best I could as there is not much material to work work. Here is was I got on Norvel 25%...Cox 6x3..12,100rpm[:@], next onto an APC 4.5x4 15,500rpm..well that would fly something for sure. She runs steady I will say that. I will do some crank work next and see where it goes.

ALter,
Tim

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I will repeat this until you all get tired of hearing it..... you could take any nice running 1/2A engine, then install a standard glow plug adapter and end up with something that runs just like this CS. There is enough meat to cut in a Nelson plug, but I wonder where to go for a 11/32 tap?

kersplat

This engine was realy designed as a Sport engine with very conservative, mild crank timing and cylinder port timing. It was designed to 4-2-4 the way it is timed and I actually got mine to do this. You can enlarge the ports all you want, but you will find little gain like Tim found out. What you have to do is change the height of the ports in the cylinder and advance the port timing in the crank. I have the .049 and it is a very reliable "sport" engine with excellent fuel draw. For all of you people trying to Hop up this engine and "Max"it out, The con rod is made of 7075T6 aluminum, but it will break sooner than the steel one in a C** engine. I have found that this engine has a more intimate fitting piston and liner than the C** Tee Dee's from the '60s but like an Enya, it will take a bit of fuel to break in this engine and allow it to really perform to it's fullest.
This engine blows chunks when you try pressure of any kind, but if you enlarge the intake, it might work better.

scudrunner77

CP- Not sure if you were serious about finding an 11/32 tap but it looks like there are some options here: http://www.victornet.com/cgi-bin/vic...oductlist.html

They list that some taps can be used by hand. Not sure about these ones, but I'm sure if your just using it on aluminum it would work fine.

Guess that link does not work... click store directory, threading tools, special taps

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

SR77, that's a good find on the tap...it's also going to take just the right seat cutting tool. The limiting factor with this engine is the pistons' weight, that's for sure. It would be interesting to see how well this engine can fly a 1/2A C/L stunt ship.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

I was the fortunate recipient of the Brodak RC .049 last fall and was excited with its potential for improvement. Circumstances prevented me from doing much till this spring and the results can be seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHQhD1PpJUQ

I very much like the mechanical arrangement. The muffler is bolt on, (a plus) but it does not have a leak proof seal. The throttle begs for an adjustable airbleed and this was installed. I really, really like the throttle. It's basically a G Mark with a stylish body and the needle assembly is interchangeable. A number of improvements were made but the icing was the installation of an AAN piston/liner. A light piston is definitely an advantage.

A special Nelson head isn't required. Just drill out the stock head to accept a Norvel .074 plug. You'll pick up an automatic 1 to 1.5K rpm. Even better is a button made up to accept turbo plugs. This allows you to experiment with a variety of brands and heat ranges.

And it makes a great, lightweight 1/2A diesel.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

That is outstanding work, ANDY!! You got it running like an AME now. How much does a AAN conversion cost?

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Combat,

It's not a commercial item. I took the cylinder from a Wasp .06 and turned it down on the lathe to fit. The piston is from an early AAN Norvel. At first, a Norvel .06 crank was installed to make it a true .06 but for some inexplicable reason that one turned out to be sub-par. The version you see has a stock crank along with the .06 Wasp cylinder. That would make it an .055??

I did a third using VA MK2 components making it an ABC .049. It did as well as the Norvel version so a true, ABC .06 I think, would be quite an outstanding engine,,, once the bugs are worked out. The VA version throttled the best.

Yet to be determined is why the Norvel version throttles better but has less power. Timing was eyeballed for all three and this may be the issue so I'll have to put a timing wheel on all of them to see what's happening.

On a Cox 6 X 3 and 25% Cool Power, the AAN version does a tad better than 17K and throttles a bit better. The Tornado 6 X 3 does 19.9K but the Cox prop, at lower RPMs, delivers more thrust in the air.

Oh yes, I also tried a version using the top end of a VA MK1 but that one was pretty much worn out so power was close to the stock engine but it did throttle very nicely so in all cases, it appears that port design in this engine, doesn't affect throttling.

Finally, along with the Norvel plug and the adjustable airbleed, throttling of the stock version was very good. And you know how fussy I am.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Well, that is a stroke of genius, ANDY! What you have done is within the grasp of what many of us here can do with the mini lathes. There are certain magic rod length / stroke ratios that just seem to click with a given load. Just look at the examples in drag racing where cubic inches isn't the whole story. Now if the guys at the CS factory call in an order for 10,000 P/L sets from the Wasp factory, do you think they will get a discount?

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Combat,

Thanks again.

Actually, I think CS is capable of coming up with a right decent ABC set on their own. I still have that CS BB .049 you sent me long ago and while the rest of the engine had issues, the piston and sleeve were second to none. If they applied that capability to this little engine,,,,,

The .049 VA ABC version was a real honker till the pin drifted and scored the liner. I made it a press fit and thought it would hold without needing to be staked. I was wrong. A replacement liner just doesn't have that magic, just right, fit and it isn't as good as the first.

As an ABC engine, it would be more expensive than the current version but with the VA MK2 no longer in production, there'd be room, I think. And done right, the modern bits could be a drop in replacement for current engines. They could put out an RC .06 version along with an .049 version for those competing within a class.

My examples had some of the flaws mentioned and I was quite concerned especially with the crankshaft. But, they got the metallurgy right and I've had no failures. The real test was running the engine as a diesel on a big prop. With high compression and big lumber, this really loads the crank. I've had thirty minutes on the bench burning stinky fuel with no problems. The real test will be to fly it as a diesel for a season which I intend to do.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

To clarify on the stock crank. It's stock only in that the original was used but it HAS been modified. As in a Medallion, compared with a TD, a nice, rectangualr port does wonders for any engine.

The case was done on Taig's milling attachment but the crank was done freehand.

mclintock

My Feedback: (3)

Andy,
Great work on the engine, it reminds me of when the Fonz had to help Ritchie beat some guy in a drag race, and Ritchie had to use Mr. Cunningham's DeSoto. I thought the scene of Fonzies mechanic friends swapping out the heads, headers, intake and carbs on the DeSoto was hilarious.

Well, now you know how old I am!

Could you give a little more info and/or a photo about the air bleed on the CS carb? Thanks,
Clint

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Clint,

I remember that episode. God how time flies.

Any way, here's how it was done. One I did with a 2-56 screw and nearly ruined it. I had to go to a 2mm screw on the next one and even then, there was no margin for error. That carb body is slim and trim and attractive but it needs to gain a LITTLE weight to accommodate the air bleed screw.

Note the nice little touch on the barrel. An O-ring for Pete's sake,,, on a 1/2A!! Neat.

Except for the lack of the adjustable airbleed, this is exactly the way I'd build a throttle. The bore in the barrel matches the bore in the carb body. The needle is firm and very predictable.

I forgot to mention that I did bore out the barrel and the body from 3.5mm to 4mm. All of these things contributed to increased power. No fuel draw problems because the muffler has a pressure tap added for muffler pressure to the tank. Still, the "good" engine has some throttling issues. Maybe a stock throttle will give up an acceptable 500 rpm for better throttling.

mclintock

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks for that, Andy, once I run a few dozen more tanks through, I may get on that air bleed, because it really needs it..

I think i'll try a fixed bleed, if that's possible, and if i have enough drill bits!

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Clint,

Yes, it does need it. And a fixed bleed will work but as soon as you change anything, plug, fuel etc., it won't. But, start with 1mm and work up. Keep in mind, like cutting hair you can't put any back if you go too far.

You might also give this a try. Get a new piston/cylinder set and if you're lucky, you can mix and match to get a set that is way too tight. Now, with a homemade lap, work on the cylinder till you get a just squeaky fit with a taper in the cylinder. Then, just like in the good old days, very carefully break it in. I did this and got a very nice result without all the hassle of making up modern components. I didn't jot any figures down but I remember being quite impressed.

Even as a steel/iron engine, the other mods made it very competitive. It did shake more as would be expected. The very smoothest was the VA MK2 version with its very lightweight piston.

jetpack

My Feedback: (1)

Sometimes if your brave enough and you have machines, you can make a heavy duty split collar to slip over the sleeve and slowly work the sleeve by tightening the split collar around the top to re-sized it and re-lap the piston.

This saves from trying to juggle pistons if you dont have a supply of them to mix and match.

GrahamC

Hey again Andy,

(I posted a reply to your 1/2a starter thread in case you see this one first)

I have a couple of the 061's that I have yet had any time to play with. I was talking toHenry Nelson last week and had him send me one of his heads for the Brodak 049 to try on these engines. I also have a couple of Norvel plugs and was going to try that mod as well. As you may remember, I was playing around with electrics before I moved from Timmins (to ottawa). The bug to mess about with small engines bit and I have been spending much time with the smelly and noisy ones again, diesels in particular.

I will try these motors as glow first but your comment (I also saw your thread on the dieselized Brodak 049) on making these into a diesel is particularily interesting and something I was considering. It is also something a bit beyond what I have been doing so far but I am working towards that goal. I bought a Taig lath some time ago and am slowly coming to terms with the techniques required to do this kind of work and conversion.

Larry Reneger (sp?) was the one I noted who had posted on using the Norvel plugs (on the Stuka Stunt Forum). Sounds like a simple mod and one I should be able to do. However, you mention using the .074 plug but in the other reading it was mentioned to use the Freedom XL plug which is for the 049/061 engines or am I mistaken and mixing things up. I have never had a Norvel or AME engine so I am not familiar with the differences between those makes and sizes of those engines.

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Graham, again, hey, I'm glad we didn't lose you entirely to silent power. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

Yes, indeed, the Nelson plug will work wonders as will a Norvel plug retrofit. I recommend the .074 plug because they WILL work and you can still GET them. Both the .06 and the .074 have the same volume combustion chamber, the flange is just larger on the .074 plug. That diameter nearly matches the diameter of the cylinder flange.

And wonder of wonders, an electric guy who likes the noise and SMELL of diesel. Hey, ya just gotta move BACK, man.