CXela22

Hello! As an itroduction, this is my first post in the airplanes section.
When I was waiting to get out when caddying (spelling may be off...) I was talking to my friend who goes to the same Highschool as I do. He owns one of thoes rather cheaper RC Planes that can have a dogfight add on (I think its lazer tag style, im not sure). I own an expensive RC Helicopter, the T-Rex 450 SA. As a joke, I asked "If bought an Apache fuselage, then bought one of thoes plane servos and made a pivotable gun on the bottom for a guy with a second controller (true Apache spirit, a pilot and a gunner) and we kept in mind this is an incredibly areobatic helicopter that can go upside-down, could I possibly have the upper hand?" I came up with senarios (spelling?) like, "If you were following me from behind lining up a shot, could I still be flying forward and turn around to give my gunner a better shot?" and he came up with going up or down, I forget.

Im about to go out to caddie again, so if he shows up I would like to ask some Pro-Dogfighting RC Plane Pilots' oppinions on what could happen in a dogfight between an incredibly areobatic 3D helicopter vs an equily areobatic RC plane! Im actuly really interested, Im sure you all would have interesting oppinions and points!


As for voting, I just came up with two different awnsers branched off to 3 each, so its either the helicopter wins, or the plane wins. In the spirit of competing, I just coted for RC Helicopter Average Wins. Please do post why you picked what you picked, its all interesting to the caddieshack!

rrh

So if I tied a streamer onto a 5 iron and you hovered your expensive chopper inverted over the T box would you get full round points for a mid-air after I whacked your rotor off?

Many of us are serious about combat around here.....

DarkSide41

No you would be flying backwards

The Internet Killer

I vote: You send us your helicopter and we will find a qualified
combat chopper pilot, tie multible short streamers to it,
and have a duel as follows. Alex with his Battle Axe and A.J.
with his Avenger will attempt to cut your short streamers.
The winner gets bragging rights, the loser has fun and we will
send back what is left of your chopper.

My money is on Demon mid-airing this thread.

RC MANIAC119

My Feedback: (14)

I think someone has been sniffing the ball washing fluid!!!

Look Skippy..in the world of RC..."Combat" means trying to cut a streamer attached to the platform. I get the creepy feeling you're talking about live fire with real guns!!
You should really just concentrate on handing out those clubs..............

Capn America

My Feedback: (3)

Easy there boys, I believe the young man is talking about the electronic combat add on ive seen mostly for the electric planes... If that is the case, The biggest problem would be dealing with the 2-3 second power shut off when you are hit, rotor jobs would not handle that well.

As stated, combat here is streamer chasing so not many of us have delt with the sonic or laser combat. We also only fly planes in combat so if you are asking about the manuverability of the two dissimilar aircraft engaged in combat... you might be better off to answer your question by reserching the military world. Im no expert, but i have not seen much heli to airplane warfare in the real world, if it was an advantage im sure someone would exploit it.

I believe its time for a sticky that explains combat....

Montague

Personally, I do think there is space in this forum for slope combat, zagi-style foamie combat, and the electronic IR combat. Even though most of the regulars here fly streamer combat (as do I).

That said, a heli vs airplane using the IR stuff might be fun, but you'd be risking the heli. I'd probably give the edge to the heli when using IR beams.

In the real world, of course, airplane vs heli, the airplane wins just about every time mostly due to speed and ability to fly higher, but in RC combat, espeically using IR, the high speed "hit and run" approach is less useful.

I'm pretty sure at least one of the companies making the IR setups have it configurable so that it can do things like beep or flash an LED rather than cutting the throttle on a "hit".

ToyDestroyer

Wow, the kid comes on here obviously not knowing to much about RC streamer combat and you guys light him up. RRH instead of being ignorant maybe you should of explained to him what your version of RC combat is. And just because he doesn't want to chase streamers around does not mean his style is not combat. You should try what he is talking about some time. The planes carry a small IR combat system on their belly. When you fire at and hit the other plane his engine dies for a couple seconds. If you are to low this obviously ends with your plane on the ground. I'm sorry RRH if the fun others have is not SERIOUS enough for you. Next time I decide to have some fun I will resist the urge to smile so as not to upset you.
As for the original post I think the heli has the advantage. You should give this a try and let us know how it turns out. Only thing is don't use a seperate controller for the gunner. The plane pilot has to control everything so to make it fair so should the heli pilot.

ArmedZagi

My Feedback: (1)

YouTube vid... 8 Combat wings vs a T-Rex heli. The wings never scored a single hit.

[link=http://youtube.com/watch?v=TYeox2JYwCo]http://youtube.com/watch?v=TYeox2JYwCo[/link]

CXela22

Yep

CXela22

LOL!!! wow! That was amazing! I could see how it could best (please dont be offended) the plane: It could fly to the side of the plane and act as an axle if the plane attempted to turn around, plus since its 3D it could still put the gun on it if it went up or down... If im wrong please correct me!

CXela22

Thank you, I will! Im a trainee, so I cant quite do all of the manuveres in the youtube video. All 3 of my helicopters are down so, im using Realfight G3 Online (sometimes i get good advice), so when im online ill start a room called RC Heli Combat. Why not? Its all for fun. Youll probably see me hovering alot, im trying to master hovering each direction so I can fly any direction. going upside down isnt quite an option yet...

The gunner thing would make it apache like was my point (so maybe we could add a couple RC Tanks and other ground based attack), and if you ever seen an apache fly, heck ya it can do a backflip! But Maybe i can swich it out pre flight if its always facing forward and I shoot or having a gunner option. I agree with you on that.

I was thinking of something like the youtube video, not streamer fight. But, now that i know what a streamer fight is (as i said before, this is my(now) 4th post in the airplane's section) that could be a possibility.

In a lazer fight, Ill explain:
The helicopter is complete with its own servo(s)
Then I buy just the Airplane's main servo (plus some other servo's to make the gun pivotable) and put the gun itself mouned on the pivotable part.
A Seperate controller would controll the gun. I would also have something for the main servo if i were to turn the pivotable gun off (like this dogfight).
But in order to tell if im done, how about I put on a bright light, and if im "shot down" it would kill the light?


But yea, this is great stuff! I have to get this youtube URL to this guy.

Still, keep voting and posting, this is really interesting stuff!


Edit:

Ooh! It went to helis being ahead by easily and average to planes being ahead by average!

Demon

Nah, I'll leave it so long as long as folks remain civil and no guns-on-R/C-models posts are brought into it. Our electric bretheren are still flying combat, even though they aren't toting streamers.

For the sake of discussion, let's consider the opponents. The electric devices used for "laser" combat aren't practical for glow powered craft due to the engine's vibration and to the optics being easily fouled by fuel residue, so that leaves us with electrics only. Now, if the fight is between a Fighter Bird and whatever electric heli is being used, I'd say the heli has the upper hand. Slap that combat module onto one of those fancy 3D electric airplanes and the fight would be far more even.

No matter how you look at it, there are easier and less expensive ways to fly R/C combat.

IMHO, the real fun factor is when the opponents' machines are close in terms of capability. Mix in something that obviously has an edge over the others and the fun factor rapidly vanishes.

D

CXela22

Im sorry for the confusion demon! By guns I meant the basic lazer tag system for the Parkzone or Firebird Commander (thats brands I know, there may be more expensive ones)(edit: whoops nvm). I see exactly what you mean by fun factor as well, since we are both (and im probably worse) ametur pilots, im sure its about even.

Clean

Yea, but Golf?



As for winning or losing, between heli's or wings, those guys just didn't have what it takes. They were flying there wings against a much smaller ship and not really getting the size difference down. Personally I'd like a crack at it, nothing like wiping 300 bucks of Heli out with a 40 dollar airplane, then flying away. But I understand your goal.

We have a club member with camera 3d camera mount on his electric heli kit. He flys while another person runs the camera using a video downlink for locating pictures. Even then it's a good bit of teamwork for him and the operator to get synched together so that he can bring the camera to bear, attempts without the locator camera are just pathetic. On the occasion that the camera IS pointing in the right way, the cutting off of heads top or bottom makes it just rediculous. Having a camera man being able to say come left and maintain altitude works so much better. It's hard to be 'In the Cockpit' with one person, let alone two.

But, as long as you're not doing anything illegal are being safe and can afford to screw up, knock your self out. Just be careful.

Here, take a look at this full contact hit from SPADfest 08, it's towards the end of the TV show but before that stinkin witch. http://rcairplane.onlinestoragesolut...20Spadfest.wmv

I can't find the real good link of pictures from one of the midairs during combat, but Randy Hodges gave this newcomer an engine and I helped getting it on and running with the guy. They midaired in SSC combat locking the planes together and took probably 30 seconds to come down in autorotation mode one or both of the engines still running and throwing streamer in the air. If I find it I'll post the pictures. Not only is THAT real combat, it was bootifull and although I was quite happy with making the news with my demolition derby style hit, The CPD taking out RH hit is the one I love the most.

Clean

http://www.geocities.com/platteville...st07page2.html

Geeze it's hell getting old, and I ain't there yet. The montage starts about 4 pictures down the page. You'll love the pics, here's one of them.



By the way, as far as the golf crack in the previous post. My father was a high school golf coach all my life till he retired when I was 26. So I grew up on a course, played junior golf, lettered in high school and worked at seven different courses from being a bag room guy to picking range to maintenance crew. Done it, done it all, can still smell the Milorganite.

Oh, probably because I just threw some last month and it's still floating around my gardening shoes. Milwaukee's finest

Montague

I watched the video, and agree with Clean. It is hard tracking something smaller than you are, and towards the end a couple of guys started to get the right idea about how to cut down the angles a bit and give more time on their approach, but I really didn't see anyone do anything close on the heli.

I also didn't see a lot of wing-on-wing hits either. I don't know if they all were going for the heli, or if they don't often get hits or what, but it did look like that group is just getting started and hasn't developed the depth perception and tricks used to get cuts in a hurry.

CXela22

Hmm, points well taken!

I was flying on realflgiht before I was posting this, and I was watching a true 3D plane (multiplayer) and a good pilot do some incredible stuff! I dont see whats so wrong with having a pivotable gun now.... a good pilot could easily whoop me! A good plane and a good pilot vs a good heli and a good pilot would be interesting though... [>:].

If I was a Foam Plane (i forget the slang) pilot, id be worried about close cutting the Trex cuz.... the plane would be ruined it it touched the main rotor.

And about your golf poster, yea, but it pays well to work for them [>:].

Montague

If a foamie hits the main rotors, it will take a couple of big cuts. But cuts in foam are easy to fix if the rotors don't hit anything else.

However, even hitting foam will almost certainly destroy the heli on the spot. I could easly see the rotors putting a couple minor cuts in the foam, the foamie flys off, while the chopper with it's now bent up mainshaft and messed up rotors now thrashes itself to death on the way down, where the ground finishes the job. It would be a heck of a crash on video, that's for sure.

CXela22

Eeh, I guess i threw another uneducated comment out (apologies) but, yet again, i dont think the heli would be destroyed!

Because of the breakaway blades, I doubt it could make a big impact. Even the (fun flyable) worthless Blade CP with its breakawy blades help it alot. With wooden blades, sure you get a crack or a break depending on the crash. Carbon Fiber or Plasti-blades although, breakaway action! With Plastiblades, ive had my moments. Ive ran into trees, ran into metal signposts, it fell oh yeah. I just picked it up and put it flat, flew it again. But a T-Rex, even with breakaway blades, because of the incredably high RPM, (no comment on foamie) in contact with it, I might have a repair nightmare fixing something in the upper blades, possibly not. If its way too high, yes the ground impact would most definantly cause a repair nighmare (hehe as i like calling any seemingly small or visibly large repair that requires dissasembly). So the plane would be the least of my concerns... its the large inevatable drop of udder doom!
So basicaly im saying that if i didnt have breakaway blades your absolutely right. Plus i got wooden rotors on (right now) so theyd literaly break away too)

Fine one comment on the foamie... remember its (i think, ill check) half a horsepower.... it wouldnt be a minor cut i could almost guaruntee that depending on the impact (and please correct me if im wrong, just please explain why though!)

CXela22

Hey! Why dont we test this! On Realfight (not today or next week im out) we could meet up online and one yall could fly a foamie where its begging to be crashed into (slow and not moving around) and ill take the closest thing to a trex.
My hypothises is that the foamie will keep on truckin while I watch in horor as the heli turns into the exploded parts list on the ground!

Montague

The blades pivoting won't really save the heli. If it happens in flight, it really makes it easy for a boom strike to occur. Having a blade fold back a bit also throws out the balance of everything going on, making the heli go totally out of control until the blade straightens itself out, but that will take several rotations. During that time, the odds of a boom strike are way up, and the heli is going to be vibrating like crazy, trying to shake itself to bits. I could easily see that kind of vibration taking off ball links or trashing electronics.

Also, just about any time you touch the rotor blades to something hard at high speed, you almost certainly bed up the main shaft. Hit hard enough, and it's easy to strip the main gear a bit as well.

In a real mid-air, I wouldn't rule out a bent flybar as well, which would lead to a crash.

Rotor blades are actually really fragile, and the forces quite high, so that when a blade hits something, the forces acting on the rotor head, mainshaft and so one are huge, well beyond what it's designed for. It's not the movies, where hollywood effects sometimes make it look like you can chop things up with a heli's rotor.

Now, on the foamie side, foamies fly just fine with cuts and holes in the wings. I've had prop cuts during combat matches where the other guys prop put 3-4 cuts clear through the wing, and the plane didn't even notice. I've had BIG holes torn out of wings and kept going as well.

Here's a couple of pictures after I got in to a mid-air during 2548 class at Nats. You can clearly see the amount of the wing that has been cut up. I flew this plane around, turned, and made a normal landing with it. This is a bit extreme, but it did fly. Now, with a flying wing, getting an elevon knocked loose is much worse than loosing an aileron on a conventional plane, and will make the plane basically uncontrollable. However, pulling back the throttle and pulling hard on the elevator will slow a foamie flying wing down to the point where it really won't be hurt at all when it hits the ground.

http://www.wheek.org/airplanes/2007/07nats25.jpg
http://www.wheek.org/airplanes/2007/07nats26.jpg

CXela22

I can actuly see what you mean by that.... So indeed the fomie would survive. The helicopter, though... i depends. I blade strike is probably the biggest concern, but plastiblades and carbon probaby wont have an issue there. As for the main shaft... thats another depending one. Maybe, maybe not. depends on alot of things. your probably right now that i think of it. So id inform my firend if my helicopters not crashed, his life is spared.... for now.... So id watch out on keeping my distance, lazer tag ONLY, no ribbons (too dangerous).

rascusn3

Go ahead and try it in realflight. Im worried that in real life some part of the heli might fly off and hit some one.

CXela22

That, and its a thousand dollar helicopter...