First Jet help
04-19-2018, 04:15 PM
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First Jet help
Gentlemen
A loaded question for all you experienced turbine guys. I am looking for suggestions for my first turbine. Full disclosure I have 20 yrs experience in RC, park flyers up to 100cc but none in turbines. Right now I am flying 90-105MM electric jets and I have an aviation backround.
I am interested in scale with my first choice being the F15 or F16. I am not interested in top speed, more scale flying, nose high high alpha landings, transition from low speed to the vertical etc. Which of the various options would be best for a simple tailerons light weight simple setup to acheive this. I realize there are some threads comparing vendors but the data seems to be somewhat dated. My only scale must haves would be burner rings and a scale cockpit. I fly from a 650Ft geotex strip but have a 8000K strip available for maiden and shakedown flights. What about losing the pneumatic gear and brakes and going electric? Is a speed brake and flaps worth it (F15)? Finally Is Nall worth the trip to meet with manufacturers and Jet dudes, or should I just wait for KY Jets which I will be attending? Thank you in advance for all your help.
Matt
A loaded question for all you experienced turbine guys. I am looking for suggestions for my first turbine. Full disclosure I have 20 yrs experience in RC, park flyers up to 100cc but none in turbines. Right now I am flying 90-105MM electric jets and I have an aviation backround.
I am interested in scale with my first choice being the F15 or F16. I am not interested in top speed, more scale flying, nose high high alpha landings, transition from low speed to the vertical etc. Which of the various options would be best for a simple tailerons light weight simple setup to acheive this. I realize there are some threads comparing vendors but the data seems to be somewhat dated. My only scale must haves would be burner rings and a scale cockpit. I fly from a 650Ft geotex strip but have a 8000K strip available for maiden and shakedown flights. What about losing the pneumatic gear and brakes and going electric? Is a speed brake and flaps worth it (F15)? Finally Is Nall worth the trip to meet with manufacturers and Jet dudes, or should I just wait for KY Jets which I will be attending? Thank you in advance for all your help.
Matt
04-19-2018, 08:54 PM
#2
Jets are different than even EDF. EDF experience may help a bit. But even for most experienced folks there is still a fairly large leap to a turbine. I recommend that you link up with some of the local jet flyers and help them for a summer as a spotter and watch what they are doing when you are not spotting. Ask them questions about how to get started toward a turbine waiver. Then they will know you are serious and invest time with you. I spent my first year with our jet guys just working as a spotter. Then I bought my first jet (i.e. a trainer). I built it over the winter. Had several local jet guys look it over and made several changes before I flew it. The third year on jets, I bought a Sport Jet. I had a heck of a time switching from the trainer to a sport jet. With the trainer I could fly aerobatics, etc., and land perfectly at my feet every time, etc. I found out that there is a large leap from the trainer to a sport jet. Then, there is another whole leap to a scale warbird. Each one of those leaps is kind of like going from a giant Extra to a giant P-40, each time.
There are also a lot of technical aspects to figure out. Working with the locals for a summer will help you make the right decisions about Air versus Electric Gear, LiPo versus LiFe versus LiPO4 Batteries, High Voltage versus Low Voltage electrical system, Power Distribution with backup systems vs. a typical Rxer, Servo Selections, Gear controller with steering centering when retracted or no centering and use a mix, No brakes on when gear is up. etc. Fuel system component considerations and decisions right on down to whether you use high flow or normal fittings. Transmitter programming, putting the mixes in the Txer or putting them in the power distribution system, etc., etc. And this does not even include the different aspects of the various turbine brands and the way you start them. What do you do for a hot start? How do totally preclude a hot start? I have seen two burn right to the ground on startups! What should you be seeing for a normal start. Do you need extra shutdown cooling to avoid fuse and wire damage? Tons of things to think about as you build it and more tons of things to think about when operating it. Then there is the landings, when do you want the nose down? When do you want the nose up? Force the nose down or let it come down by itself once it is on the ground. It all matters! Stall recovery is quite different w/o propwash on the surfaces. Getting used to turbine lag time to accelerate and decelerate. Working with the locals for a while will help you get a clear picture of a lot of this. A lot of reading may help you get some more of it nailed down. Of course if you have the $s, you could go Plug and Play. Then all you have to do is learn how to operate and fly it.
Also, the local jet guys can most likely help you practice enough to get you thru the turbine waiver flight. If they buddy box, you are you going to have the right brand Txer? Got at least a 9 channel Txer? 14-20 is better if you are planning to buy new. If there is a CD in the group, once you are ready, the CD can even sign off on the waiver application once you meet the requirements. Have you looked at the requirements for a turbine waiver? For experienced pilots meeting the test flight requirements can be difficult enough with a trainer, let alone a warbird. I did not have to buddy box at all. I just went out there on my second flight on a trainer and passed the test. But, I flew hundreds of jet hours on the sim over the winter and had a lot of giant experience. I would not have passed the waiver flight if I was using my sport jet. Seem like a lot of B.S. to you? The underlying goal to keep you and the people onsite safe. So, all of the above counts! But, ... Flying jets is worth all the above invested time. So, ...
I would NOT recommend that your first jet be a scale warbird, like a F-15 or F-16 or most of the of the sport jets. There are a few sport jets that fly like a trainer. But, there is also typically a vast difference from a trainer to a sport jet and another leap into a scale warbird. If you start with a warbird, I would bet you end up crashing and losing the entire investment. We have 26 jet guys in our club. I would bet that everyone of them would tell you this. And, lastly I have seen over 10 jets go into the dirt. I can tell you that most of them were warbirds with pilots that could fly their sport jets in an excellent manner. We also have several pilots who fly warbirds and have moved back into sport jets and trainers cause the warbirds typically are not relaxing to fly. Typically there is a high pucker factor the whole warbird flight. If you want to maximize your enjoyment with your first jet, get a trainer.
The above is just what I have experienced myself and what have seen a lot of other jet pilots experience while I was running over a dozen Jet Rallies and other jet events. But the most important thing to remember is all of the above is worth the effort, especially if you are into the technical aspects of putting together a very complicated group of sub-systems and making them all work together. Lastly, Jets are not your normal 6 channel challenge. When they go down, it can easily cost you $6-$10K and crashing is typically NOT a good indicator of being safe. Now, if all the above is for you, enjoy! All the fuss is worth it, especially when you see that CD sign off on the Turbine Wavier Application!
Kentucky Jets would be a nice place to watch jets fly. But there is always lot going on for pilots at large events. At events spectators are frequently isolated from the pits and surely not getting out on the flightline. You would be better served if you linked up with some local folks who fly in your area. There typically is just to much going on at events to spend much time with spectators. If you are interested in flying jets you need to penetrate that barrier and get linked up with some experienced pilots and go flying with them at non-events. Also, the trend is for the jets at the large events to be huge jets. These are no way what you want to consider for a first jet. Keep an eye out for the smaller ones. Much better to lose a $5K jet than a $15-$20K jet and all jets have a definite life expectancy. Sooner or later almost all RC Planes wind up in the trash bag.
Most importantly, ... Be safe and have fun! Jets are a good way to do that!
There are also a lot of technical aspects to figure out. Working with the locals for a summer will help you make the right decisions about Air versus Electric Gear, LiPo versus LiFe versus LiPO4 Batteries, High Voltage versus Low Voltage electrical system, Power Distribution with backup systems vs. a typical Rxer, Servo Selections, Gear controller with steering centering when retracted or no centering and use a mix, No brakes on when gear is up. etc. Fuel system component considerations and decisions right on down to whether you use high flow or normal fittings. Transmitter programming, putting the mixes in the Txer or putting them in the power distribution system, etc., etc. And this does not even include the different aspects of the various turbine brands and the way you start them. What do you do for a hot start? How do totally preclude a hot start? I have seen two burn right to the ground on startups! What should you be seeing for a normal start. Do you need extra shutdown cooling to avoid fuse and wire damage? Tons of things to think about as you build it and more tons of things to think about when operating it. Then there is the landings, when do you want the nose down? When do you want the nose up? Force the nose down or let it come down by itself once it is on the ground. It all matters! Stall recovery is quite different w/o propwash on the surfaces. Getting used to turbine lag time to accelerate and decelerate. Working with the locals for a while will help you get a clear picture of a lot of this. A lot of reading may help you get some more of it nailed down. Of course if you have the $s, you could go Plug and Play. Then all you have to do is learn how to operate and fly it.
Also, the local jet guys can most likely help you practice enough to get you thru the turbine waiver flight. If they buddy box, you are you going to have the right brand Txer? Got at least a 9 channel Txer? 14-20 is better if you are planning to buy new. If there is a CD in the group, once you are ready, the CD can even sign off on the waiver application once you meet the requirements. Have you looked at the requirements for a turbine waiver? For experienced pilots meeting the test flight requirements can be difficult enough with a trainer, let alone a warbird. I did not have to buddy box at all. I just went out there on my second flight on a trainer and passed the test. But, I flew hundreds of jet hours on the sim over the winter and had a lot of giant experience. I would not have passed the waiver flight if I was using my sport jet. Seem like a lot of B.S. to you? The underlying goal to keep you and the people onsite safe. So, all of the above counts! But, ... Flying jets is worth all the above invested time. So, ...
I would NOT recommend that your first jet be a scale warbird, like a F-15 or F-16 or most of the of the sport jets. There are a few sport jets that fly like a trainer. But, there is also typically a vast difference from a trainer to a sport jet and another leap into a scale warbird. If you start with a warbird, I would bet you end up crashing and losing the entire investment. We have 26 jet guys in our club. I would bet that everyone of them would tell you this. And, lastly I have seen over 10 jets go into the dirt. I can tell you that most of them were warbirds with pilots that could fly their sport jets in an excellent manner. We also have several pilots who fly warbirds and have moved back into sport jets and trainers cause the warbirds typically are not relaxing to fly. Typically there is a high pucker factor the whole warbird flight. If you want to maximize your enjoyment with your first jet, get a trainer.
The above is just what I have experienced myself and what have seen a lot of other jet pilots experience while I was running over a dozen Jet Rallies and other jet events. But the most important thing to remember is all of the above is worth the effort, especially if you are into the technical aspects of putting together a very complicated group of sub-systems and making them all work together. Lastly, Jets are not your normal 6 channel challenge. When they go down, it can easily cost you $6-$10K and crashing is typically NOT a good indicator of being safe. Now, if all the above is for you, enjoy! All the fuss is worth it, especially when you see that CD sign off on the Turbine Wavier Application!
Kentucky Jets would be a nice place to watch jets fly. But there is always lot going on for pilots at large events. At events spectators are frequently isolated from the pits and surely not getting out on the flightline. You would be better served if you linked up with some local folks who fly in your area. There typically is just to much going on at events to spend much time with spectators. If you are interested in flying jets you need to penetrate that barrier and get linked up with some experienced pilots and go flying with them at non-events. Also, the trend is for the jets at the large events to be huge jets. These are no way what you want to consider for a first jet. Keep an eye out for the smaller ones. Much better to lose a $5K jet than a $15-$20K jet and all jets have a definite life expectancy. Sooner or later almost all RC Planes wind up in the trash bag.
Most importantly, ... Be safe and have fun! Jets are a good way to do that!
Last edited by Len Todd; 04-19-2018 at 09:02 PM.
04-20-2018, 12:42 AM
#5
Individuals are all different and have different needs. I agree entirely with the plan to speak to other experienced jet flyers to get some info, and clearly in the US you will need someone to help you get your waiver, but the scaremongering regarding modern turbine models is a bit overdone in my opinion.
Turbines available from the big manufacturers are very reliable so don’t require a huge amount of expertise to operate any more but they do need care and respect.
The trainer jets are easier to fly (and some fly pretty well) but not all people need one. I didn’t and my first jet was second hand and I had over 100 flights with it before I wore it out. A F-15 or F-16 might be ok depending on your ability and experience (albeit if you go for a scale F-16 with fancy gear it could be a little less resilient to bumpy landings).
You don’t really need to stress too much about battery types, high flow fittings and all the million other ‘options’. You just need a good quality airframe, with reputable equipment and unless you go mega huge or tiny (i.e. anywhere in the 44-160 size band will be ok) you shouldn’t have many major problems.
Turbines available from the big manufacturers are very reliable so don’t require a huge amount of expertise to operate any more but they do need care and respect.
The trainer jets are easier to fly (and some fly pretty well) but not all people need one. I didn’t and my first jet was second hand and I had over 100 flights with it before I wore it out. A F-15 or F-16 might be ok depending on your ability and experience (albeit if you go for a scale F-16 with fancy gear it could be a little less resilient to bumpy landings).
You don’t really need to stress too much about battery types, high flow fittings and all the million other ‘options’. You just need a good quality airframe, with reputable equipment and unless you go mega huge or tiny (i.e. anywhere in the 44-160 size band will be ok) you shouldn’t have many major problems.
04-20-2018, 03:59 AM
#6
Gentlemen
A loaded question for all you experienced turbine guys. I am looking for suggestions for my first turbine. Full disclosure I have 20 yrs experience in RC, park flyers up to 100cc but none in turbines. Right now I am flying 90-105MM electric jets and I have an aviation backround.
I am interested in scale with my first choice being the F15 or F16. I am not interested in top speed, more scale flying, nose high high alpha landings, transition from low speed to the vertical etc. Which of the various options would be best for a simple tailerons light weight simple setup to acheive this. I realize there are some threads comparing vendors but the data seems to be somewhat dated. My only scale must haves would be burner rings and a scale cockpit. I fly from a 650Ft geotex strip but have a 8000K strip available for maiden and shakedown flights. What about losing the pneumatic gear and brakes and going electric? Is a speed brake and flaps worth it (F15)? Finally Is Nall worth the trip to meet with manufacturers and Jet dudes, or should I just wait for KY Jets which I will be attending? Thank you in advance for all your help.
Matt
A loaded question for all you experienced turbine guys. I am looking for suggestions for my first turbine. Full disclosure I have 20 yrs experience in RC, park flyers up to 100cc but none in turbines. Right now I am flying 90-105MM electric jets and I have an aviation backround.
I am interested in scale with my first choice being the F15 or F16. I am not interested in top speed, more scale flying, nose high high alpha landings, transition from low speed to the vertical etc. Which of the various options would be best for a simple tailerons light weight simple setup to acheive this. I realize there are some threads comparing vendors but the data seems to be somewhat dated. My only scale must haves would be burner rings and a scale cockpit. I fly from a 650Ft geotex strip but have a 8000K strip available for maiden and shakedown flights. What about losing the pneumatic gear and brakes and going electric? Is a speed brake and flaps worth it (F15)? Finally Is Nall worth the trip to meet with manufacturers and Jet dudes, or should I just wait for KY Jets which I will be attending? Thank you in advance for all your help.
Matt
Cell phone vid, but it gives you an idea, spot landing is easy, always at my feet.
04-20-2018, 04:47 AM
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Great landing! That is exactly what I am referring to. Just so everyone knows the words of caution are heard and appreciated and I will not be trying to just jump in to flying a 15K totally decked out swing wing twin turbine F14 😊. I am comfortable with the technical aspects of the build and am in no hurry but I will seek out advice every step along the way and would never fly anything before both the aircraft and I were thoroughly evaluated by experienced turbine jet people. Additionally; I plan to spend the summer researching different aspects of turbine flying and building and as career military and commercial pilot safety is always my first priority. I wouldn’t be against finding a used reaction or dv8tr or turbinator to work on my waiver as I build my Eagle ( as with any check ride make it easy on yourself?) All that being said, Scale is my thing so would you guys go with the SM or FB F15 ( or any other brand for the light weight, taileron ,speed brake setup)? I would love to do it in the F-15E’s livery ( Elgin if F-15c)if you guys don’t think airborne visibility would be a problem. I am with you the landing pattern is my favorite part of the flight ( same for me in the real jet). I apologize for all the questions and thank you to everyone for all inputs, they are all greatly appreciated, keep em coming and now I will go back out and fly my E-Flight piper cub in preparation 😂
Matt
Matt
04-20-2018, 05:22 AM
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My 2 cents. Flying high wing loading low power loading planes helps a bunch. Depending on your budget and when you will have the money, I would pick the scale jet you want and what size turbine you need for it. Then find a good used sport jet that can use that engine. Fly the heck out of it while taking your time on your scale jet. You will learn a lot and have a lot of fun.
04-20-2018, 06:12 AM
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As others have said a heavily loaded scale jet is a big step up. There is a lot of technology to to learn how to use. A twin boom top off trainer allows you to learn about jet turbine tech without worrying about deadsticks or turbine lag. Despite having 35 years RC experience flying allsorts my first jet was a baby boomer. It was a good decision.
04-20-2018, 06:33 AM
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You guys are talking me in to buying even more stuff (and I love it). The building has always been one of my favorite parts and i have learned having a back up-warm up aircraft is a great tool. while I am researching and looking for the F15 I guess I should start looking for a second hand trainer ( I just cant get past the twin boom thing).
the search continues.
the search continues.
04-20-2018, 07:58 AM
#11
Matt,
If you are a good flyer, then as mentioned above, a 1/9.5 F-15 with a 120-class turbine in it is a great combination for a first scale jet. It could also be your first jet overall, as long as you can fly at the 8000' until you get very comfortable with it. A 650' strip is doable with this type of F-15, but you'll need to be right on the money to reliably get it out of, and back into that strip.
I also second the recommendation to talk to your local jet guys - you'll need their help to get the waiver anyway. If they've flown a 1/9.5 F-15, they'll likely agree that, if your flying skill is good and you have a large, hard surface strip to start on, an F-15 is OK. Way back when, we all started on Kangaroos and Hotspots, and a 1/9.5 scale F-15 flys WAY better than they do!
For a first jet, keep it simple. If you are familiar with the radio setup for a 100cc plane, then the setup for a simple jet like an F-15 isn't any more complex - just a bit different. The setup for a turbine is also straight forward - especially for a more modern one. Operating them isn't that difficult either - just be sure you have a CO2 fire extinguisher handy every time you start it. 999 times out of 1000, you won't need it, but that 1 time, you'd better have it very handy - ask me how I know that...
Electric gear and brakes are great - they have come a long way in the past few years. The one thing though is you need a set that are correct for your aircraft. Most 1/9.5 F-15's don't have rotating retracts. but they do retract straight forward and thus the gear/strut arrangement must be setup for that. The air-operated gear sets available from the manufacturer are already setup for that. It is possible to get electric gear (and brakes) that will work, but you have to be careful to get ones that are compatible with the installation required for the aircraft, or you'll potentially be stuck doing some modifications to make them work - ask me how I know THAT...
My 1/9.5 F-15 with a P-120 (which was a blast to fly - should never have sold it) had flaps (and ailerons), but no speed brake. I've also seen them setup with with tailerons only and that worked good too. It depends on what you like.
I would not go to Joe Nall expecting to see a lot of jets and jet manufacturers. There will be some of each, but Ky Jets is a much better bet to see what's out there...
Bob
If you are a good flyer, then as mentioned above, a 1/9.5 F-15 with a 120-class turbine in it is a great combination for a first scale jet. It could also be your first jet overall, as long as you can fly at the 8000' until you get very comfortable with it. A 650' strip is doable with this type of F-15, but you'll need to be right on the money to reliably get it out of, and back into that strip.
I also second the recommendation to talk to your local jet guys - you'll need their help to get the waiver anyway. If they've flown a 1/9.5 F-15, they'll likely agree that, if your flying skill is good and you have a large, hard surface strip to start on, an F-15 is OK. Way back when, we all started on Kangaroos and Hotspots, and a 1/9.5 scale F-15 flys WAY better than they do!
For a first jet, keep it simple. If you are familiar with the radio setup for a 100cc plane, then the setup for a simple jet like an F-15 isn't any more complex - just a bit different. The setup for a turbine is also straight forward - especially for a more modern one. Operating them isn't that difficult either - just be sure you have a CO2 fire extinguisher handy every time you start it. 999 times out of 1000, you won't need it, but that 1 time, you'd better have it very handy - ask me how I know that...
Electric gear and brakes are great - they have come a long way in the past few years. The one thing though is you need a set that are correct for your aircraft. Most 1/9.5 F-15's don't have rotating retracts. but they do retract straight forward and thus the gear/strut arrangement must be setup for that. The air-operated gear sets available from the manufacturer are already setup for that. It is possible to get electric gear (and brakes) that will work, but you have to be careful to get ones that are compatible with the installation required for the aircraft, or you'll potentially be stuck doing some modifications to make them work - ask me how I know THAT...
My 1/9.5 F-15 with a P-120 (which was a blast to fly - should never have sold it) had flaps (and ailerons), but no speed brake. I've also seen them setup with with tailerons only and that worked good too. It depends on what you like.
I would not go to Joe Nall expecting to see a lot of jets and jet manufacturers. There will be some of each, but Ky Jets is a much better bet to see what's out there...
Bob
Last edited by rhklenke; 04-20-2018 at 10:13 AM.
04-20-2018, 10:19 AM
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Bob
That 1/9.5 scale F15 is what I am looking at . The SM version comes set up with pneumatic gear and brakes with the option of adding a SB but I think it is heavier. I was just contemplating the electric gear conversion for weight savings but it is starting to sound like that would develop into a fur-ball. I like the taileron setup for simplicity and ease of transport and setup. I love the Avonds (is it worth the extra $$) it is over twice the price and I don't know much about the Yellow version but would love input. Trying to figure out which I could build the simplest and lightest and throw a nice modern turbine in there ( I don't mind taking a few months to complete the project). I can use the 8000K strip at Wright Pattern Air Force Base Museum (how cool is that) its just an hour away as apposed to 20 minutes. I don't think I want to be shoehorning it in to a smaller strip until I get comfortable. I appreciate all the advice and look forward to exploring this portion of the hobby.
That 1/9.5 scale F15 is what I am looking at . The SM version comes set up with pneumatic gear and brakes with the option of adding a SB but I think it is heavier. I was just contemplating the electric gear conversion for weight savings but it is starting to sound like that would develop into a fur-ball. I like the taileron setup for simplicity and ease of transport and setup. I love the Avonds (is it worth the extra $$) it is over twice the price and I don't know much about the Yellow version but would love input. Trying to figure out which I could build the simplest and lightest and throw a nice modern turbine in there ( I don't mind taking a few months to complete the project). I can use the 8000K strip at Wright Pattern Air Force Base Museum (how cool is that) its just an hour away as apposed to 20 minutes. I don't think I want to be shoehorning it in to a smaller strip until I get comfortable. I appreciate all the advice and look forward to exploring this portion of the hobby.
04-20-2018, 11:33 AM
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I think I would be much more concerned with the price of the nearly instantaneous divorce proceeds following a 20k expenditure on a turbine jet😖. I made that mistake once with a sports car ( I do not own that vehicle anymore) I think she’s still a little mad about that. 😄 They just don’t understand! 👍
04-20-2018, 12:08 PM
#15
Bob
That 1/9.5 scale F15 is what I am looking at . The SM version comes set up with pneumatic gear and brakes with the option of adding a SB but I think it is heavier. I was just contemplating the electric gear conversion for weight savings but it is starting to sound like that would develop into a fur-ball. I like the taileron setup for simplicity and ease of transport and setup. I love the Avonds (is it worth the extra $$) it is over twice the price and I don't know much about the Yellow version but would love input. Trying to figure out which I could build the simplest and lightest and throw a nice modern turbine in there ( I don't mind taking a few months to complete the project). I can use the 8000K strip at Wright Pattern Air Force Base Museum (how cool is that) its just an hour away as apposed to 20 minutes. I don't think I want to be shoehorning it in to a smaller strip until I get comfortable. I appreciate all the advice and look forward to exploring this portion of the hobby.
That 1/9.5 scale F15 is what I am looking at . The SM version comes set up with pneumatic gear and brakes with the option of adding a SB but I think it is heavier. I was just contemplating the electric gear conversion for weight savings but it is starting to sound like that would develop into a fur-ball. I like the taileron setup for simplicity and ease of transport and setup. I love the Avonds (is it worth the extra $$) it is over twice the price and I don't know much about the Yellow version but would love input. Trying to figure out which I could build the simplest and lightest and throw a nice modern turbine in there ( I don't mind taking a few months to complete the project). I can use the 8000K strip at Wright Pattern Air Force Base Museum (how cool is that) its just an hour away as apposed to 20 minutes. I don't think I want to be shoehorning it in to a smaller strip until I get comfortable. I appreciate all the advice and look forward to exploring this portion of the hobby.
My F-15 was a Fly Eagle (early FEJ when they did a 1/9.5 F-15). See the thread on it here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...-thread-2.html
The landing gear, air cylinders, and fuel tanks were crap, but I eventually fixed the tanks and and gear mounts, swapped out to Robart gear, put a gyro on the nose gear and made it work. It was a great flying plane, as dionysusbacchus says, its an everyday flyer. My favorite was to nail the throttle on the P-120, let it pick up a bit of speed, and then bank 90 degrees and rack it around as tight as I could (which was pretty tight). It would make this great wooshing sound (don't know how else to describe it), and come out of the turn quite a bit slower. I'd let it pick up some speed across the field, and do it at the other end. Great fun, and the verticals were good too. Don't go with an 80- or 100-class turbine, do a 120...
The Avonds is really nice and if you ultimately want a really scaled out 1/9 F-15, I'd get that - but later. I'd go for the Xtreme Jets one first and beat the heck out of it until you're extremely comfortable with it. Then go for the Avonds if you still want it.
On a side note, I've never had an F-16 myself, but see a lot and know a lot of guys who do. They do not fly and land as easily as an F-15 - especially the smaller, 1/8th sized ones. The F-16 has a smaller wing and doesn't have the big lifting body that the F-15 does, so the small turbine ones have a higher wing loading and are touchier. I'm sure you've seen this story on the F-15 that illustrates why they land so well: https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/1...with-one-wing/
For the F-16, I would't go below 1/7 scale, or 1/6, but then you're into too much money for a first jet.
Bob
Last edited by rhklenke; 04-20-2018 at 12:11 PM.
04-20-2018, 01:05 PM
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Bob
You have noticed the same thing I have, seems like the F-15 is a pretty good deal. To jump up to a 1/6 scale F-16 you are almost triple the price. I think the extreme jets F15 with a p120 and the speed brake seems the way to go unless you guys think a FEJ,FB, or JL is a better option. Keep it light and just add the burner rings and a descent pilot bust ( cant stand empty cockpits on scale planes). If all goes well the next one could be the "hair teeth and eyeballs" F15E from an Avonds kit. Any chance you can pick something like this up at KY jets to save yourself the shipping cost or I wouldn't be adverse to a used air frame that I can bring back to life. I apologize in advance for the bravado but many moons ago I would absolutely LOVE to low approach in the T-38 light the blowers, level the nose, gain a bunch of smash then rip it into the pattern just as you were doing with your F-15, an absolute blast. That is what I would like to do with the F15 . Pattern work as you described and occasional missed, approach ( initially probably many) suck up the gear and transition to vertical. Better stay away from these vendors websites for a few hours this is addicting.
Matt
You have noticed the same thing I have, seems like the F-15 is a pretty good deal. To jump up to a 1/6 scale F-16 you are almost triple the price. I think the extreme jets F15 with a p120 and the speed brake seems the way to go unless you guys think a FEJ,FB, or JL is a better option. Keep it light and just add the burner rings and a descent pilot bust ( cant stand empty cockpits on scale planes). If all goes well the next one could be the "hair teeth and eyeballs" F15E from an Avonds kit. Any chance you can pick something like this up at KY jets to save yourself the shipping cost or I wouldn't be adverse to a used air frame that I can bring back to life. I apologize in advance for the bravado but many moons ago I would absolutely LOVE to low approach in the T-38 light the blowers, level the nose, gain a bunch of smash then rip it into the pattern just as you were doing with your F-15, an absolute blast. That is what I would like to do with the F15 . Pattern work as you described and occasional missed, approach ( initially probably many) suck up the gear and transition to vertical. Better stay away from these vendors websites for a few hours this is addicting.
Matt
04-21-2018, 05:42 AM
#19
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Any Jet that you can rip a wing off and still bring it home is my kind of jet . All these inputs are much needed and appreciated. From my research it seems an F15 lightly built without the scale amenities (can I have at least a lightweight pilot bust please). is not a crazy idea. I know it has a narrow track gear ( My 90mm F15,16 and 105MM F16 are the same). Its wing loading with its additional lifting body (I know not really a lifting body) higher drag, easy turbine access, taileron simplicity, option for flaps,SB, shim the gear. Not to mention the Skymaster (not that I am partial to any brand) version comes with their highly regarded gear already installed so I wont screw that up, plus the price point is WAY better than anything else I have seen. Also, do you guys know if the Turbinator ARF is still actually available, that might be a nice intro that the local jet guys could help me with while I build the Eagle and I could probably eventually fly it at my home field, or is that a waste of time and money. I have built and flown many warbirds and larger edf jets but obviously no RC models with Turbines or the associated lag but am infinitely familiar with turbine operation. Just trying to get a realistic observation and I assure you I take no offense to any comments.
04-21-2018, 07:05 AM
#20
Xtremejets, Jl, (stay away from FEJ, do some searches), FB will have some sort of cockpit deck to use. Dress up your cockpit to your heart’s content man! Maybe, just maybe wait on that operational canopy...
I had a skymaster (now Xtremejets) F-15 and I flew the snot out of it.
Do it already and have a blast man!
I had a skymaster (now Xtremejets) F-15 and I flew the snot out of it.
Do it already and have a blast man!
04-21-2018, 07:19 AM
#21
How times have changed. It wasn't long ago the F15 and F16 were highly recommended as first jets. They are very easy to fly.
The new generation of trainer jets are very easy to fly but honestly in my opinion outside of teaching you turbine operation do very little to prepare you for any other type of jet. In fact I have seen them be detrimental when a pilot is very used to the trainer jet. They then go to a scale or sport jet with that subconscious expectation that they will fly much the same.
back in the late 90's/early 2000's when many of us started, if you weren't already flying ic ducted fans, you started with an F15, F16, Bandit, Kangaroo, Hotspot, CAI Raptor, cyclone or a converted ducted fan. Of all of those the 15 and 16 were probably the 2 easiest landing jets.
I started with a kangaroo and Ram 750 after flying mostly pattern. I had a couple of ducted fans prior as well. Outside of learning how to operate the turbine (which back then was still very easy but rocket science compared to today's engines) the flying was really no different than any ducted fan or even deadstick landing (lack of propwash). The engines back then took forever to spool up and down.
I had to learn most of turbine modeling on my own with the exception of a bazillion phone calls to dean wichmann. I think I had the 3rd turbine in Canada and the only one in alberta at the time. Outside of RAM engines blowing up left right and center I never had any real issues with turbine. Ram just about made me leave the hobby after having 2 fresh factory rebuilds blow up again on the same day. Back then a ram750 was near 5k Canadian. I moved on to an AMT and then the (at the time brand new) pst and had much better luck. Now 19 years later I still fly those old AMT's, a very old jetcat and one pst600. I've had many other engines and can say honestly that turbine modeling has never been more affordable or more reliable than it is right now. If you are experienced and have help from other key guys in your area then get your F15 and have fun. The extreme jets version is great. Don't waste your money on fly eagle jets garbage. Put a kingtech engine in it and fly the crap out of it. I can't comment on electric gear as I've never used it never had pneumatic fail on me either.
Buy the jet you love. I recently bought a reaction 54 for my dad to fly but it is not a jet that excites me in any way. The F15 is a good choice provided you have good flying experience.
The new generation of trainer jets are very easy to fly but honestly in my opinion outside of teaching you turbine operation do very little to prepare you for any other type of jet. In fact I have seen them be detrimental when a pilot is very used to the trainer jet. They then go to a scale or sport jet with that subconscious expectation that they will fly much the same.
back in the late 90's/early 2000's when many of us started, if you weren't already flying ic ducted fans, you started with an F15, F16, Bandit, Kangaroo, Hotspot, CAI Raptor, cyclone or a converted ducted fan. Of all of those the 15 and 16 were probably the 2 easiest landing jets.
I started with a kangaroo and Ram 750 after flying mostly pattern. I had a couple of ducted fans prior as well. Outside of learning how to operate the turbine (which back then was still very easy but rocket science compared to today's engines) the flying was really no different than any ducted fan or even deadstick landing (lack of propwash). The engines back then took forever to spool up and down.
I had to learn most of turbine modeling on my own with the exception of a bazillion phone calls to dean wichmann. I think I had the 3rd turbine in Canada and the only one in alberta at the time. Outside of RAM engines blowing up left right and center I never had any real issues with turbine. Ram just about made me leave the hobby after having 2 fresh factory rebuilds blow up again on the same day. Back then a ram750 was near 5k Canadian. I moved on to an AMT and then the (at the time brand new) pst and had much better luck. Now 19 years later I still fly those old AMT's, a very old jetcat and one pst600. I've had many other engines and can say honestly that turbine modeling has never been more affordable or more reliable than it is right now. If you are experienced and have help from other key guys in your area then get your F15 and have fun. The extreme jets version is great. Don't waste your money on fly eagle jets garbage. Put a kingtech engine in it and fly the crap out of it. I can't comment on electric gear as I've never used it never had pneumatic fail on me either.
Buy the jet you love. I recently bought a reaction 54 for my dad to fly but it is not a jet that excites me in any way. The F15 is a good choice provided you have good flying experience.
Last edited by LGM Graphix; 04-21-2018 at 07:22 AM.
04-21-2018, 07:41 AM
#22
I still enjoy flying my sport jet and trainer.. its relaxing flying and the cost is reasonable. Im "in between" scale jets at the moment.. I love the F-16, you will have to come to winamac to find out why..
04-21-2018, 11:21 AM
#23
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I had a jet legend F15 (very similar to SM). I had the speed brake option. I always loved that jet. Very easy to fly. Loved the landing. It looked so cool with the speed brake up and the nose wheel held off the runway after touch down. I had a cheetah in mine and it was actually fast on the top end. Although i only did a few all out level high speed runs with it.
I have been itching for another one. This time the SM f15 painted in the black and grey camo. For some reason i love that scheme
Of all the jets i have owned, the F15 to this day was my favorite all around jet. However the F15 has always been my favorite military jet so im biased.
I have been itching for another one. This time the SM f15 painted in the black and grey camo. For some reason i love that scheme
Of all the jets i have owned, the F15 to this day was my favorite all around jet. However the F15 has always been my favorite military jet so im biased.
Last edited by noahb; 04-21-2018 at 11:27 AM.
04-21-2018, 06:04 PM
#24
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Thanks for all the info fellas, Always loved the look of the F15 just something about that jet. Also love that arctic camo scheme , looks great on the Viper too.. Sounds like a road trip to Winamac should be in my future, sounds like a great event and a great bunch of guys. Probably should just pull the trigger and get this odyssey started (Or wait for a great sale) Sounds like a great bunch of guys out there that are more than willing to help with experience and advice. I am really looking forward to it.
04-23-2018, 05:46 AM
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Seems that Skymaster Fb, and Jet Legend all appear to be about the same with Yellow a step up and Avonds the top end. For a newbie like myself the Skymaster with a taileron setup and a King Tech 120 seems to be the way to go. 33FW Gulf Spirit livery. Stand by for multiple questions. If all goes well an F15E from Mountain Home with the coolest military jet paint scheme I have seen. Love this hobby.