franklin_m

My point is just that, a lack of meaningful standards. I've actually watched a turbine checkout at a location out west, and it was a joke. A turbine CD and a waivered pilot were checking out their buddy. They passed him despite not being able to stay within a wingspan of runway centerline on rollout, without being able to consistently hold altitude during a 360 degree turn, or without being able to consistently land in the first 1/3 of the runway. At that moment, I realized the program itself is flawed. While there are many good pilots out there, this one was signed off despite poor performance and weak skills. One of the benefits of my military career was being able to visit a variety of clubs around the country. I will say I've seen many good giant scale and turbine pilots, but I've seen some scary ones as well. Unfortunately I've also seen major sponsored team pilots fly their Q40 in circles around pilot stations, over cars and people. Club members, including the safety officer, just stood and watch and remarked how awesome it was. At another club, in the south, in an semi-public airshow, I watched a giant scale aircraft, waivered for weight, be flown at high speed toward the gathered pilots and spectators before pulling into a hover.

While these certainly don't typify all pilots, I've seen enough of them around the country to convince myeself there's an underlying culture problem. Now add to that a culture that waives recommended standoff distances, then I see all the links in an accident chain starting to line up.

I've been fortunate to work with a prominent human error expert from Los Alamos, and he contends that disasters are merely the right combination of normal events lining up at the wrong place and time. In our world, these might be reduced safety margins between flight lines and spectators, more aggressive maneuvering, weak mechanical checkout programs, slightly substandard pilot skills, and a willingness by organizers to accept risk.

I'll stop posting on this thread, because I think that if anyone is inclined to see their operations differently, they will have done so. I'm also aware there's a sizeable group of people on this board who may never change. I've tried to change thinking the easy way, so I guess I'll have to shift tactics and change thinking the hard way. I'll watch the web, news reports, etc. and spend my time helping unfortunate victims of these bad decisions find information that will be of help in holding those running these events accountable for the risk decisions they make. Insurance costs are already going up, I guess they haven't gone up enough for enough people to change how they think about accepting risk.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

Sigh...Standing inside of a (sometimes) flimsy cage while 3 or 4 150mph/190mph masses of kinetic energy is racing around a course was arguably the most dangerous situation one could do in model aviation. I am very familiar with this as I raced Formula 1 until the mid 1980s when I relocated to Alaska. That was then and this is now.

At every jet meet I have attended (that is a lot of rallies), there has been a MANDATORY pilot meeting (every morning of the event), outlining special safety guidelines.

And you're not giving the spectators any credit for having a brain. Spectators at NASCAR, MLB, PGA, NHRA, etc. all weigh and accept some risk in order to be able to witness things that one can only experience IF THEY CAN WATCH!
Again...sigh

AndyAndrews

SideGates, I'll ask you the same question I asked Ace and Franklin. Do you have a AMA turbine waiver?

f106jax

My Feedback: (16)

Franklin,

I'll only be addressing this specific comment as others have addressed your other perspectives on operations at jet events. I was the CD at a well attended jet rally for 9 years. My personal experience, not speculation, was that the AMA insurance underwriter and our outside insurance broker were both more concerned with "slips, trips, and falls" than the flight operations that were regulated. The risk percentage of a spectator stepping into a depression in the grass and twisting an ankle, stumbling over a guide rope supporting a fence, being burned by a spilled cup of coffee purchased from a food vendor, etc. was greater than the risk generated by flight operations. Again, this is my actual experience, not speculation.

My message is not to engage you in a debate, just to compare my factual experience with your speculative statement. You clearly are a learned person, but when your facts and fiction are co-mingled, it becomes increasingly difficult to the reader to discern between the two.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

Now you are really showing your ignorance.

Practice makes a jet pilot better. This is not full-scale aviation...your guidelines are not relevant. What is required is being a SAFE pilot. Landing on the runway and being able to maintain a SAFE altitude is what is required. Maintaining flight in front of the pilot and away from the pits.

When I received my Private Pilot License in 1968, the FAA inspector said, "Congratulations! You now have a license to learn". 13,000hrs+ later (ATP, CFI II MEI MEL, SEL & S) I am still learning.

Being able to safely land a model jet ON THE RUNWAY is paramount...we all make an effort to land and roll out at or near the center line but you can take your "within a wingspan" and shove it up your electric foamy.

AndyAndrews

+1 Well said Bob

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

I applaud your efforts for making the hobby safer. Remember, large scale change occurs when a lot of people change a little.

IMHO the best course of action is to really work directly with the key decision makers. The key difference between leadership and management is management works in the system and leadership works on the system.

D.bag

Let's just end with this. SAFTEY FIRST

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

Andy,
Yes, I have had my waiver for approx. 5 years but have only flown my Boomerang solo and have flown my son's F-86 in the air. I flew USAF jets in the late 50's not that counts regarding model safety . I have flown R/C models since 1952. I have seen more model accidents over the years than I want to discuss. I have only been personally hit one time with no injury.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

I have been hit myself, Sid. No rule in the world would have prevented it, though. Another pilot tripped over his own feet on takeoff and dropped his transmitter. His plane got me square on the ankle...okay the next day but I couldn't ride my motor cycle home.

I am about 10 years behind you but let's be honest...how many times have you ever heard a pilot yell, "I ain't got it!"? Radio problems aren't affected by rules. Rare nowadays.

Getting "shot down" by another pilot's transmitter is another matter altogether. It's caused by not following rules; not the lack of rules.

What did you fly in the USAF?

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

================================================== ================================================== ===============
I flew the F-94C in the 27th F.I.S. in 1956,57,58. I always felt lucky to have flown the T-6 in primary training and then to get to jets in basic. I am scratch building the F-94C model. You can see it on my web if interested. http://www.sidgates.us

After reading here about some of the structural problems with certain Chinese built model jets I have reservations about flying my own design in front of a crowd. The test flights will certainly be in private and maybe later I will get the confidence in the design to fly it at an event.

rcpete2

Go to Franklin's gallery to see he has only small models, by his own words he admits he cashed most of them. Warbirds over Del. has not had one safety issue in 20 years, this year will be the last year we will CD this event, we have to many Franklins in our club.

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

Your allot safer at the flight line then on the drive to the field. People need to put thing in perspective. I have also seen far more accidents with props slicing off body parts then jets hurting people. These guys need to go hang out in the prop forums.

rcpete2

This one is just for you Franklin, your big on regulations, why not just limit the RC Jet forum to people with a waiver, woops now Franklin M has nothing to do, you will be able to read but not comment. Troll that!

mackeyjones

Friend of mines injury, at home, with an electric prop, perhaps that gives some perspective.

westwind two

My Feedback: (1)

Nice Troll in your photo there D bag !....... That dude is cool. Is he a jet pilot or just a troll ?

He must be a ACE !

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

[h=1]There was a question earlier in the thread about how to block users, everyone in the jet forums should block franklin_m and

Ace Dude, here is how:

[/h]Click on their name and go to their profile page. On the left you will see "Add to ignore List" click on that and a message will come up in the field on the right asking if you want to do this, click on YES and you will silence these pests. franklin_m take your little toys to another forum, this is out of your league.

Here is my turbine waiver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGVmkKfdGU

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

A couple of pictures of the flight Line and Pitts area. There is a gap between the runway and pilot stations that is protected by a short fence which is needed for a run away jet, bad landing etc. If a jet is above 4 foot high headed for the Pitts or diving from above it doesn't matter how far back you are. If pilots are uncomfortable being so close to the runway they don't have to stand so close and can move back while they fly as well. There is a tall fence protecting the spectator area. The setup at florida jets is just fine. The only improvement that I would consider is a concrete/paved taxi way running parallel to the runway From the runoffs at the end/side of the runway new from last year.

I saw the gentleman that was burned back at the event Saturday walking and talking to people. He looked like he was back to enjoy the event.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

Franklin sez "I'll stop posting on this thread, because I think that if anyone is inclined to see their operations differently, they will have done so. I'm also aware there's a sizeable group of people on this board who may never change. I've tried to change thinking the easy way, so I guess I'll have to shift tactics and change thinking the hard way. I'll watch the web, news reports, etc. and spend my time helping unfortunate victims of these bad decisions find information that will be of help in holding those running these events accountable for the risk decisions they make. Insurance costs are already going up, I guess they haven't gone up enough for enough people to change how they think about accepting risk."


And here you have your answer. This guy is either a lawyer looking at the supposed deep pockets of the turbine waiver holders, or a shill working for the injury claims lawyer. Either way, nothing you do or say to him is going to make a difference. As a physician, a pilot, and someone who holds a turbine waiver and has actually flown at Paradise Field, I can say that there is nothing you can do to logically please these types. Anyone who has actually flown at a big event knows that the flight line gets crowded. By the time you put a pilot and his / her spotter on the line, along with the safety marshal and the guys directing the planes, along with the judges, in the case of Top Gun, you have a full contingent of people. I wish we all had the convenience of having a thousand acres of open land where all the nice AMA "suggested" distances could be provided but we don't. So until we do, and people like the knowledgeable esquire above, who has traveled the world, witnessed all types of proficiency testing, and once talked to an egghead from Los Alamos actually gets a turbine waiver and flies a plane, you are wasting your breath trying to convince him that we already have some of the strictest flight rules of any group. You are not going to convince him, nor stop his bad mouthing, Just throw some dirt on the horse and leave it to rot. What you have here is turbine chasing lawyer who is seeing money, and likes to justify his own existence by claiming he is out protecting mankind. See them every day in my field. The skulk around in the shadow and sometimes stick to the bottom of your shoes.

AndyAndrews

Yep Doc, the guy seems to have some sort of personal vendetta against the jet community. He doesn't seem to want to even try to get along with the majority of the common sense folks around here and he seems to have a fanatical obsession in seeing that our hobby is restricted to the point that no one can enjoy the sport. It's ashamed if you think about it because a guy with the credentials he purports to have would be a real asset if his efforts were directed in a proper manner. But the way this guy pursues his "safety" crusade is not only damaging to the community but it begs one to take the assumption that he is nothing more than a braggart looking for minions to pick on and scores to settle.

mackeyjones

The answer is that some people find it difficult to accept that they are just plain wrong, and his lack of willingness to post any credentials at all except in PM's makes me think that even they are quite fake, and his arguments dint quite match up with what he said he has done in the past. Seems a lot more interested in talking about law suits than actual safety in this and other threads.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

JEEZ! Your self designed F-94C is BEAUTIFUL!
Thanks for sharing.
(not apologizing for sorta hijacking this thread...y'all should check out Sid's jet.) http://www.sidgates.us

AndyAndrews

I agree the F-94C is gorgeous. Nice work!

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

================================================== =============
Thanks Andy. I have seen pictures of some your work.

westwind two

My Feedback: (1)

Well it is just not jets, he kept the Hodges B-29 crash going for a long time and he has different names......what a ego to try to impress us with knowledge that have known about with risk factors of model aircraft. I will continue to enjoy this hobby as I have done for the past 50 years and the events help to keep this hobby alive. I am not sure how long this hobby would exist without events and contests. For us as a family that travels together. "The events are nice but the friendships and closeness of this community are great " Pete and I have CD'ed Warbirds Over Delaware for 18 years and the ONLY reason we continue is because the pilots show up and enjoy the event....That is a good feeling.

Dave Malchione