4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

I have an idea that I stole from the racing world tha might help level the playing field. For those that are worried about the cost of competing in pattern, why not introduce the idea of a "Claiming" component to a a contest. A graduated scale of money in accordance of class.

Winner of an event's class would have to be willing to sell his ride for a prespecified amount if there were to be any takers.

Sportsman= Exempt
Intermediate=850.00
Advanced= 1100.00
Masters= 2500.00
FAI =exempt

I could understand almost every objection to this idea and I am not the best judge of what amounts should be used for the claiming amounts but it seems to work in other competitions. Just an idea.

Hate it? Love it?

cmoulder

As an experiment, why don't you guys try it next season in your district and report back this time next year on how it worked out?

4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

Thanks for adding to the discussion C. Your input is quite helpful. We now know exactly where you stand on the idea.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I think the intent of this such a rule is to keep people from cheating. I just don't see any real way to cheat at R/C pattern. Thanks for the good laugh

4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

Speed,

I think that an idea can have more than one intended purpose. I can understand resistance to the idea. Heck, I even aknowledge it is VERY likely never going to happen and might not be a great idea to begin with. This is a dicussion forum and I have heard more than one person in this forum suggest that lowering the cost of flying pattern might increase participation. This was an attempt to open a DISCUSSION. Nothing more. Peace!

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

The $5000 airframe doesn't guarantee you'll win. Pattern is still more about who's on the sticks than what the airplane cost. You're going to see a lot of sub-$1000 airplanes beat the high-dollar stuff in 2012 I think.

exeter_acres

My Feedback: (2)

How??? he said absolutely Nothing about which side of the issue he was on

Seems he was just asking for data......

burtona

My Feedback: (50)

Where are you going to find a sub $1,000 2M plane to buy? I agree the potential for the mythical sub K plane to win is there, but where can you get one today?

cmoulder

There is no reason that someone flying Sportsman or Intermediate could not win flying a Kaos with an OS or Super Tigre .46. Masters and F3A could be won with an Osiris. Not exactly high-dollar airframes.

It depends on who is moving the little stick thingies around.

But there are a few people can never be convinced of this.

Does the OP compete, and has he ever felt that he lost purely because of his model?

I think these are legitimate questions.

bjr_93tz

Uh Oh, someone's been following the MotoGP too closely with this CRT idea [X(]

Something that never ceases to amaze me is the shock/horror reaction to the capital investment (the plane and gear) and the almost total lack of consideration given to the ongoing costs (practice, attending events, maintenance). I don't even want to know about depreciation or opportunity costs.

I outlayed nearly 6.5K to set up my F3A ship, and while I still owe money on my house (around 7.5% at the time), just having it sit in a corner without firing a shot is costing me nearly $500 per year in extra interest on the home loan.

Even at 6.5K that's only half the price of a new motorcross bike and I don't see any shortage of young fella's with one of those in the back of their hotted up ute's, with loud stereo's and fat tyres. How come it's just the old married people that have money problems

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

No thanks.

I have two PL Prod Partners that I bought from Quique Somenzini from the WC in 2003. I fly in Masters. No amount of simoleons could relieve me of them because they have sentimental value.

Ridiculous rule. I just don't see how you can cheat in pattern in such a way that this would be pertinent.

Also, why the scale for less money for the lower classes? I flew a Partner in my first contest in Sportsman. I didn't win because I had the flashiest airplane, I won because I out flew everyone. Same thing with Intermediate. Same thing for Advanced. I won’t count the wins I had in Masters with this airplane, as the design was four years old when I was in Masters, and most Masters guys have ex-F3A ships anyway. I can't afford the latest and greatest, and I don't feel that I have been slighted or that I don't have a chance, or will be judged unfairly if I do. I don't mean to come off as brash, and I sincerely apologize if I do. I would be more than happy to take any conversation related to my post offline in order to circumvent a unnecessary mud slinging match on here.

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

Agree 100%, Bob.

Desertlakesflying

My Feedback: (28)

There's already way too much worrying about "leveling" too many playing fields these days.

The only problem is when any playing field is "leveled" it is always worse than how it started.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Agreed, if you want to level the field, I suggest you spend more time at the field.

cmoulder

Instant classic, dude.

RByrd

My Feedback: (3)

Leveling the playing field would require everyone to learn to properly trim their plane. It doesn't matter how much a pilot spends. If isn't trim properly. He will get beat every time no matter how much time he's at the field.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Very true. It's amazing how many just take the trimming process to a certain point then quit. I see airplanes getting blamed for things that can be easily trimmed out. Pattern guys do a great job overall in the trimming department. I have seen guys show up at an IMAC contest and attempt to fly sportsman with what looks like 3D rates LOL. The best guys are the ones that get their airplanes flying well and then practice alot. I have said hundreds of times that I have no natural ability for R/C I just set goals and work until I reach that goal and then set another.

DaveL322

Ding Ding!!! The winning response. Money can't buy experience and knowledge needed/used to properly setup a good pattern plane. A proper setup is far more important than the actual plane for the majority of flyers/contests - the exceptions being the high levels of competition in Masters or FAI. At those levels, the equipment better be pretty darn good, and the setup is a must. Granted, some guys have enough natural talent to overcome some weaknesses in airframe and setup, but that is a truly small number, and there is limit to what can be overcome.

Regards,

cmoulder

Wow! Not many threads where the OP gets responses from the current AMA Masters and F3A Champions on the first page!!

A lot of gold in these nuggets.

Desertlakesflying

My Feedback: (28)

Amazing how well that fits.....I agree instant classic

Now everyone gets a trophy for that..........j/k

Bozarth

My Feedback: (15)

As someone who only casually follows pattern nowadays, how is the "playing field" not level? Is there some need for pattern reform requiring a "redistribution?"

Kurt

cmoulder

A still-popular concept in some quarters (amazingly so, after our disastrous national dalliance with socialism) but obviously not among most pattern fliers.

Let's assume 4u2nv is not a Bolshevik and could have better phrased the question, "How can I get involved in Pattern without it costing me a bloody fortune?"

I'll get the ball rolling with this: 1) go onto the Tower Hobbies website and order a Kaos/OS .46 combo (TZ1112) or a Phoenix SeaBee (TA1122) and an OS .46 (TA1778) and some Futaba 3004 servos, 2) assemble the model and take it to the nearest field where pattern fliers hang out and say "I want to learn to fly pattern."

In my experience, pattern fliers are the most knowledgeable and helpful people you will ever meet at a flying field. If you are genuinely interested in learning to fly pattern, there is virtually no end to the amount of help and advice you will get along the way.

That'll keep you busy for at least 2 years with a model that cost less than $400.

4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

Let's assume 4u2nv is not a Bolshevik and could have better phrased the question, "How can I get involved in Pattern without it costing me a bloody fortune?"

Bob

___________________________________________

Lets assume, Bob, that I proposed an idea that I would have enjoyed a discussion on. Instead, I got people who dont know me questioning my motives and my ideals. I fly, I compete, let me rephrase that, I fly at competitions as I do not see my self as competitive. I enjoy spending time with a core group of guys that have like minded interests. I found found AMOST all of them to be great guys!! I have been doing this for about 6 or 7 years.

My original post stated that I would more than likely agree with most objections, and the ones that heve been voiced are valid and I DO agree with them. RByrd's reasoning resonated best for me but the others who discussed why they felt the idea had ono merit were also on target. I asked love ot or hate it... I am guessing hate it!!! OK I get it!! Bad Idea!!

MTK

Not so fast.... I don't care for the original idea but there are elements that have merit. For example, if any long time competitor is selling a good rig, I'd suggest that you jump at the chance. Nothing you can do in the next couple years will teach you as much as buying and flying a well set-up and proven model from a long time, well known competitor. And if he is around to help you, even better

I remember when such a rig became available when I was very early in my pattern career. It was much too expensive (350$) for me back then (35 years ago, my gosh how time flies), so I chose not to buy it. Well I got a chance to fly it soon after the guy who bought it allowed me a flight. I knew right there and then I made a mistake. I became very serious about pattern while the buyer never went into it. A shame and a terrible loss of a fine airplane (Atlas)

jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Pattern is similar to any competitive Sport (can I use that term?): some people think that they can simply "buy" their way to the top while in fact there's much more to it than that. The people who will actually be sucessful know that it's not going to be that easy - right from the start. It's actually going to require work, sacrifice and determination. Yikes! They usually take a more deterministic approach, often with used equipment as well as practicing under less than ideal conditions. I've seen good pilots with not-so-good airplanes beat not-so-good pilots with extraordinary airplanes. THAT's what makes Pattern great! The playing field is always level as long as you realize who your competition truly is (yourself).

I did a bit of circle track racing when I was younger. I don't think I EVER saw anyone exercise the claimer-class option in Street Stock (I think it was $2500.00) and I know for a fact there were cars on the track with $10,000.00 engines (I know because I built a few of them). Those cars went into the wall just like the thrown-together beater cars if you didn't know how to drive. The guys who won consistantly were the ones who had a reliable car that was relatively easy to drive i.e. properly "trimmed".

So my answer is: No I don't think we need a claimer class for Pattern but there are some other things that we could borrow from racing - like tech. inspection BEFORE letting an airplane fly at a contest. That would be nice if we had the manpower available to make it practical.

John Pavlick