dahld

This is probably common knowledge within the pattern community, but I'm new.

So I'm reading-up on the rules from the AMA's Comp. Regs. (2013-2014), and it states in Para. 4.4, "Electronic or other signal feedback from the model of any kind.", is not permited. This statement is under the title of "control functions" not permited.

So the question is: Some radio systems these days offer as routine, "telemetry" that at a minimum allows the pilot to read RX voltage from the transmitter. This transmitted data from the aircraft to the transmitter has nothing to do with any of the model's "control functions" per se (the pilot can't use the data to effect how the aircraft flies), and it's a nice safety feature, but...it is "...signal feedback from the model..."

So what's the "ruling" on this issue. Again, I'm new, and it's probably an old question. But it's new to me (-:

(-: Dave Dahl

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Dave, I can't 100% answer this question as I don't know what the original intent is. I can assume you are correct as telemetry that can not be used to enhance aircraft performance should be OK as that would make most sense but you know how these things go. That being said, the few pattern contests I have flown in the past 2 seasons have been with an A9 TX that has the RX battery voltage monitor and nobody seemed to have issue with it. IMO what would not be OK would be airspeed, altitude, attitude, main battery consuption and the like.

countilaw

In my personal opinion, Any feedback that would inform the pilot the condition of his battery, engine temp or fuel level would be permissible. However, any feedback that would inform the transmitter of altitude, attitude, yaw or air speed where the transmitter could, on it's on, make corrections without input from the pilot would be unallowable.

So where do we draw the line? Telemetry feedback of any kind should NOT be allowed. By allowing some functions of telemetry, it could open the door to other uses and it would become hard to police.

We want our pattern meets to be fun and competitive. We don't need to start having mandatory inspections of our aircraft at each contest just to insure that competitors aren't cheating by using unauthorized flight enhancement equipment.

What are the opinions of other Contest Directors?

Frank

dahld

We probably need to define how we're using the word "telemetry", as it's being used in this thread to describe inert data (like RX voltage) that cannot effect the model's flight performance at all...

And...

It's also being used to describe "...altitude, attitude, yaw or air speed where the transmitter could, on it's on, make corrections without input from the pilot..." This type of information being fed back to the pilot from the model is already clearly out-lawed in the rules.

I don't yet own such a radio (yet), but I know others flying pattern that do. I don't know if the "inert telemetry" function (like RX voltage), can be disabled or not. If so, then CD's could just tell all contestants to disable the function if they want to fly at the contest. If not, and it's just part of the function of the TX and RX as they operate together, well, the issue needs to be thought through, or else we'll all be flying old ancient radios in a few years in order to be "legal" at events.

(-: Dave

g_mkoch

Honestly the AMA doesn't cover telemtry systems since it was written before radios like the A9 showed up.


Amongst the failed proposals to changes on the AMA regulations code, there was one to serve as clarification for the aforementioned rule. The idea was to allow telemetry functions that served to provide increase safety i.e. the receiver battery voltage but disallow anything that could severe to enhance the flying characteristics of the plane i.e. gps systems.

In the end I don't know of any official interpretation of the rule by the AMA regarding telemery systems

cmoulder

If you're new to Pattern, this is the least of your worries. NOBODY is going to check or to complain until/unless you reach the upper echelons of Masters or FAI.

If you cheat, you cheat only yourself. If you don't keep track of and monitor your battery packs sufficiently on the ground so as to require in-flight feedback, you need to seriously take stock of your protocols and correct your deficiencies. Guys who fly electric Pattern regularly monitor their Rx packs by load-testing voltage and observing the IR's when recharging Rx and main packs. If there is any doubt about an Rx pack, it shouldn't be in the model in the first place.

Silent-AV8R

I use the telemetry information as part of my monitoring and maintenance program. I never look at the information or otherwise access it during a contest until after I have flown, but at that point I can see what my high and low voltages were on both my RX and motor packs. Combined with the charging data this gives me another important data point to help determine the health and performance of my batteries, both RX and motor. Not sure how that can be perceived as cheating.

bjr_93tz

From the FAI Rules :
...Radio equipment shall be of the open loop type (ie no electronic feedback from the model aircraft to the
ground except for the stipulations in Volume ABR B.11.2).

ABR B.11.2 states:
A Spread Spectrum technology receiver that transmits information back to the pilot-operated transmitter,
is not considered to be a “device for the transmission of information from the model aircraft to the
competitor”, provided that the only information that is transmitted is for the safe operation of the model
aircraft.


So the bottom line is that according to the FAI, it's illegal (while people argue with the CD over what's just for safety and what's helping the flight). However as has been stated earlier, rules in your country and what is actually enforced at local level probably will be different and no CD will turn you away.

Two sides to this funny coin though, back when the 10cc (two stroke) limit was in there was no point OS bringing out a .65 sized pattern motor, so why should the rules be changed (or a blind eye turned) to allow Futaba/JR/Spektrum Radio systems if they don't comply with the current rules?? Should Futaba/JR/Spektrum be made to provide an "F3A" model option in the menu which disables the illegal funtions for that particular plane. Electronically "sleeve" the radio down, very easy for them to do.....

Silent-AV8R

The Futaba telemetry is easily disabled, including the receiver and motor pack voltage. Not sure why you think a special "F3A" radio would be needed. Any CD who is worried about a pilot knowing his receiver pack voltage as being a cheater can simply confirm that the telemetry is disabled during the contest. Takes about 2 seconds to disable it.

bjr_93tz

That's the beauty of today's modern radio's, it doesn't have to be a "special" F3A radio. There's a heap of model types I'll never use (including umpteen heli swashplate types), why not just just throw in an F3A model type that disables everything that doesn't compy with the rules including the illegal automatic timing functions (that I don't use ).

20 years ago very few CD's would have put up with oversized motors (certain class exemptions probably existed as they do today) even if they were more common and cheaper.

Either rules needs to be updated to refelct the available technology, or radio manufacturers have to be made aware that certain features (if they can't be disabled) might exclude their products from use in pattern competitions. If Futaba put a 3-axis (or even single axis) gyo into every 4+ channel rx in their lineup and it couldn't be disabled, then Futaba would be out of the F3A game, unless you wanted to fly their older products..

Silent-AV8R

As I noted, all a person needs to do is disable the telemetry and the hand wringing is no longer needed. I'll use it while practicing because knowing what my batteries are doing during actual flight is valuable information. I cannot see how that can in any way provide an unfair advantage during a contest, but the rules are clear. BTW, Spektrum now has a RX with a built in 3 axis gyro. I have no idea if it can be disabled.

bjr_93tz

I tend to agree with this, as long as pattern folk remain fine, upstanding members of the aeromodelling community with integrity beyond reproach.

Unlike their pylon brethren that try to slip .46 liners into .40 motors