aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

A BROAD MARKET SUMMARY

I did not vote because I don't have either one yet, but XPS and Spektrum are the ones I am considering.

XPS and Spektrum appear to be the dominant players, if you count forum buzz as a market indicator. Futaba is out there but does not seem to be widely adopted as their first offering is very limited and their modules and more feature rich 2.4 GHz radios are not shipping yet. Futaba's prices are also higher.

Both XPS and Spektrum seem to be getting good reports. While there are more problem reports on Spektrum, their installed base is huge compared to XPS so you would expect to see more problem reports. I don't see this as a negative indicator.

Different Market Approaches

It seems that XPS and Spektrum have targeted a different part of the plane/heli market as their entry points. Both have been building out from their starting points. With Spektrum's longer availability they have a much larger user base and a broader product line today.


XPS - Extreme Power Systems
www.extremepowersystems.net

XPS chose to go after the larger plane and experience flyer market first. They are only selling after market transmitter modules. They are not offering an XPS transmitter. So, their target market is upgrade modules for existing owners who have module based systems. This addresses the mid market to high end users and really does not address the entry level market at all.

XPS initial offering is based on 8-10 channel receivers and a receiver design that calls for a little more room in the plane. If you are flying glow, gas, larger electrics and gliders with large spaces in the fuselage, it seems that XPS is an excellent choice, and perhaps even the better choice. However if your transmitter is not module based, or if you are buying your first radio, you can't choose XPS. While XPS has more transmitter coverage and better receiver prices for the size receivers they are selling you have to buy someone else's transmitter first.

XPS receivers seem to claim longer ranges and XPS is willing to share specs more openly. They have a small 6 channel receiver coming and it looks good, from a specs and a price point of view. The published specs say 1500 foot rated range. That would be great for most electric planes under 70 inch wing spans which is a huge part of the electric market. For planes larger than that, their larger receivers will probably fit and do a good job.

For gliders the XPS receivers seem to be a challenge. For hand launched gliders their new 6 channel may be too large. For most slope gliders under 2M, the bulk of the slope market, the 6 channel will probably be fine. For thermal duration gliders that are 1.6 M or larger the 6 channel probably does not have enough range. And since gliders tend to have narrow fuselages, the 8 channel may have a problem with space.

XPS seems to handle low voltage pack issues better than Spektrum. Specs suggest that the XPS systems are faster to reboot if the pack has a momentary drop below a critical voltage level. It has been suggested that their response times are also faster, but I don't know if that can be seen or felt so not sure if it is an issue. XPS also promises 2 way telemetry in the future. Nice!

XPS uses a channel hopping approach to frequency management. They suggest that they can have over 100 simultaneous users. With XPS you are highly unlikely to get locked out due to the radio slots being all used up by XPS system. Even at large events with hundreds of pilots, some will be on XPS, some on other 2.4 GHz standards and some on 72 Mhz. Available channel space for XPS users should be assured.


SPEKTRUM
www.spektrumrc.com

Spektrum targeted the parkflyer and micro heli market first with their DX6 and have built out from there. New users could buy a 6 channel computer radio with a good range of features as their first transmitters. Reports suggest that this is the fastest growing part of the market and one that will readily adopt a new standard so this was a good starting point for building a new installed base. Once satisfied with the Spektrum system these new flyers would likely stay with the Spektrum standard. Based on forum buzz, the DX6 is still selling well as the price is holding up with little discounting being seen.

The follow on DX7 works with the 6 channel DX6 receiver so there is an upgrade path within the Spektrum label for those who want more channels and more features. Now that JR has adopted the Spektrum standard, you can buy a full range of transmitters that will work with Spektrum receivers.

If you are a new flyer, or if you are flying small planes or tight fuselages, Spektrum seems to be the better choice. They now have a wide selection of receivers going from micro receivers to 9 channel multi-receiver offerings. With JR adopting the Spektrum standard and modules for Futaba coming out, their base can expand even further. Spektrum has established itself as THE dominant standard in the 2.4 GHz airplane/heli market. They also have a major position in the RC car market. It is unlikely that Spektrum will be the only major standard, but it will certainly be one of them.

Reports suggest that the Spektrum's receivers are more vulnerable to low voltage pack problems as their receivers are comparatively slow to reboot and require signal. However, now that this is known, with proper planning this should not be a major issue as you should take it into account in your installation. While they have been resistant to releasing any numbers on receiver ranges, the user community has been active in establishing some acceptable ranges for their receivers. Seems Spektrum has been conservative in their marketing information and their receivers can be pushed out further than would have been initially suggested.

Spektrum's approach limits their system to 40 simultaneous users. While this number seems large compared to typical pilot population, as 2.4 GHz becomes the standard and frequency control starts to go away, will Spektrum users be locked out at large events? While you might only have 5 Spektrum pilots in the air at one time, you could easily have more than 40 Spektrum users at an event. If you have 40 Spektrums turned on in the pits, will you be locked out from flying even as you approach the line? Again, we can expect that many pilots will be on other standards, but will this become an issue in the future? It is something to consider.

FUTABA

What of Futaba? It is too soon to tell. There don't seem to be that many 6EX 2.4 GHz systems out there yet. Those who have them seem to report that they work well but many are dissatisfied with the features of the transmitter and the price for the features provided. However this does give Futaba an entry level system for new buyers, though more expensive than the Spektrum DX6. If you take the price of servos into account, it is about the price of the DX7 but with a vastly more limited feature set than the DX7.

We really can't rule Futaba out as they are a major force in the market. They are just a bit late and slow to get up to speed and their prices are high. They are only focused on Futaba customers at this time as they have made no announcements of modules for other brands. Once they get rolling, they may become a major player in this 2.4 GHz market. I am sure their technology will be good, but will it be niche, like PCM, or will it become a market standard. Only time will tell. If Hitec or someone else were to adopt the Futaba standard that would be a huge boost on their market position. This is the dark horse player at this time.


A Personal Prospective

As an experienced flyer who already owns a module based transmitter, I like that XPS is available for just about anything including my Futaba 9C and my Hitec Prism 7X. If I go with the XPS standard and want to move to an EVO, Hitec, JR or something else in the future, my XPS receivers will work with those transmitters. I like the XPS prices better. The fast reboot of their receivers and the promise of two way comms in the future is very attractive. I would LOVE to see Hitec or Airtronics or someone else adopt the XPS standard so that new users could buy into the XPS standard when they buy their first transmitter. That could result in an explosion of the installed base which I think would be good for XPS and XPS owners.

I like that Spektrum has such a large user base, as there IS safety in numbers. However that could be a lock out issue looming for the future. And they don't have a module for my Hitec transmitter. Their receivers run the full range and the prices are good. With JR on board this standard is well established.

If I was going to buy today, I would buy Spektrum based on the selection of receivers and the ability to fit their receivers in my planes. My electric planes tend to be small and light. Some of my gliders have really tight fuselages and I will need LOTS of range for the gliders. Spektrum has receivers that meet these size, and range specs. For the moment XPS does not.

I fly a Futaba 9C but do not consider Futaba as one of my likely choices based on price, availability and the fact that I would be locked in to a Futaba brand for any transmitter upgrades. Futaba could become the PCM of the 2.4 GHz world. Maybe better but brand specific. That does not interest me at this time.

Your needs will be different, but I hope this summary is useful in your choice. I think both are good choices. It is just a matter of what works best for you.

d_wheel

I have used all 3 systems currently available, and will continue using the DX7 and 6EX until Futaba ships their 14mz module. If it takes too long, I will probably purchase a Spektrum module to tide me over.

The reason I no longer use Xtreme Power is the fact that it only has 1 receiver antenna. Although I used one for many, many flights without any problems whatsoever, I simple feel more secure with the data link knowing there are more than 1 antenna to help eliminate multi path and shading problems.

The reason I will not stay with Spektrum once the Futaba modules are available is the fact that Spektrum chose to go with a non-hopping method. They pick 2 frequencies at boot up, and stay on them regardless of what might pop up later.

So, in my humble opinion, Futaba has the most robust system. They use 2 receiver antennas AND continually hop from frequency to frequency. Spektrum is second because they have 2 receivers to deal with the shading and multi path problems but do not hop off of noisy frequencies. Xtreme Power is third because they do hop to a different frequency if necessary, but only have one receiver antenna.

Later;

D.W.

Phil Heller

My Feedback: (9)

You only need one --- if it's done right! Sorta like a wife.

Phil

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

The question that started this thread is, which is better, XPS or Spektrum. Better in what way?

Technology?

Price?

Performance?

or

The ability to meet your individual and personal needs.

Once I have confidence that they all work then it is a question of which will work for ME. I now have that level of confidence based on what I have read on these forums and in the news. Each is different but they all seem to work.

Then the focus should turn to which will work best for you. I will give you an example of my issues and needs.

If I understand it correctly, XPS's 2" rule won't work for me. None of my planes have a 4" wide fuselage so there is going to be servo wires and push rods, a battery pack or something within 2" no matter where I put it. My primary planes have fuselages that are less than 2.5" wide. even a 1" rule would be a challenge.

As you will see in the photos, things are tight in my gliders and parkflyers. In most cases the receiver is right next to the servos, a battery or something else, and wires are all around. the two servos mounted on the left side in a fuselage now have the receiver, a Hitec Electron 6, sitting right in front of them.

The photo with the servos mounted on a board shows the receiver wrapped in foam. That whole package then slid into the nose nose of the slope glider with the red wings and the tan fuselage. Right in front of it, wrapped in foam, is the battery. there is no room for clearence.

In the white fuselage, my Thermal Dancer 3.1M sailplane you see the servos. The battery is in the nose and the receiver is just behind and is wrapped in bubble wrap. The fuse is mostly Kevlar wtih a few strategic carbon strips. The wing is carbon cloth top and bottom. The receiver sits under the wing.

If I am missunderstanding the 2" rule, would someone please clarify it for me?

I am not XPS bashing here as I believe they have an excellent system. I am sharing MY personal challenges and how they will guide me as to which system will meet my needs. Your installations will be different. Your planes will be different and so your needs will be different.

Whether they frequency hop or not really is not the driving issue for me, as long as they work.

tomlee

My Feedback: (1)

Hi guys, I have both and my thinking is quite simple.

If you do not own a module radio---DX-7. Which will do for 95% of us for a long time. I fly mostly fuel in the 60 to 1.40 sizes using both the AR6000 and AR7000 receivers.

If you own something like a 9c, and you like the radio, XPS is a good option. Currently using three receivers and expecting to buy a couple more as I like the functions of my 9C.

I had a bad experience with a 6100 and a XPS. JR told me they checked the receiver and it was o.k, XPS sent me a replacement.

I am very happy with both systems.

Cheers, Tom

Parkerm

My Feedback: (6)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=710718&page=3

Clarifying the 2" rule......

DavKhy

My Feedback: (2)

I have both systems, Spektrum and Xtremelink. Ihave about 100 flights on my Xtremelink system and have had no problems. Range is unbelieveably far. The Xtremelink module system beats Spektrum by a mile. Xtremeline changes frequencies if interference is encountered, the receiver is bi-directioinal which means that the receiver talks to the transmitter, this is used for the telemitry coming in the future, and for other communition to the transmitter. Best thing is that I don't have to spend $700 on a 2.4 JR9303. The XPS module for my 9303 was $189 for transmitter module including an 8 channel receiver. Receiver is smaller than my 149 Futaba PCM receiver for my 9Z. Another plus for XPS is that they have a forum on RCGroups and the head man at XPS Jim Drew is always on the forum answering questions from forum users. That is great customer service. RCGroups/Vendors/XtremePowerSystem.

Now Spektrum, I have the DX7, I have read the posts about the voltage issues and do not want to expose any of my planes to the possibility of getting lock out while in the air and have to wait seconds for the receiver to reboot. The reboot of the Spektrum I read is several seconds where the reboot for XPS is around .4 ms. Another issue are the servos that come with the DX7 - 821's. I have seen many 821 users break the output shaft on the servos. Several helicopter users, at my field, have had the output shaft break in the air, resulting in Raptor 30 crashes. I have also see some brand new 821 servos break output shafts on the first outing on an airplane, while range testing, before first flight. One other issure I do not care for is that I have read that Spektrum uses a linear voltage regulator that actually wastes energy(turns into heat) to drop voltage down where needed, in the transmitter. This heats up the circuit board in the area around the regulator. I'm no electronics expert but I do know that heat and electronics do not do well together. There is a modification to change the linear reglator to a switching type regulator. This mod will cost $15.00 and will increase battery life by almost 1/2(See RunRyder - Spektrum DX6 & DX7 forum. Not sure about what the change will do with the warranty, but based on these observations, I have come to the conclusion that Spektrum was trying to spend as little as possible to get this system on the market.

Well this is my experience and I hope you will use this information to help you make your decision.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

DavekHy,

You say you have both systems. Great! Your experience could be very valuable here.

You report good experienc with the XPS. Great! You said nothing about ever using the Spektrum system. Have you actually used your DX7?

Can you tell us what kind of planes you fly and something about the installations?

I understand the servo issue but we are not discussing servos here and I don't think I would take servos into consideration as to whether Spektrum or XPS would better meet my needs.


Appreciate any experience you could relate.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

I fly 40% gas. I also use a JR 10X. I am also a owner of a LHS. From the outset I said I would switch to the first one that came on the market, and I did. We now have three systems that work in three different ways, and they all work, and the key word is work. This discussion too me is the Ford or Chevy, JR or Futaba question. If they all work and it does what you want, then it is the best, but to me there is no "one" best. Now saying this and the fact that I can sell two out of three, guess which ones I will promote. I don't understand how all three work and to me it's not important only that they do.
I have followed all the threads on this subject so I can give my customers my experences having used it. I have either used it or seen all three work, and at times had all three in the air at the same time. I picked my system for three reasons, (1) It came on the market first (2) it worked in my radio and (3) I know that the company will still be in business many years from now.
Now the only thing I want from all these companies is to stop the B/O's so I can sell and pay the bills. Dennis

DavKhy

My Feedback: (2)

I have used the Spektrum for about 10 weeks and I must say that I have not had any problems. Even though I have been lucky to not have had any bad experiences with the Spectrum, there are just too many lock out issues and reboot issues documented in posts for me risk an expensive airplane. I do not like the fact that the Spectrum systems do not change channels when interference is experienced. I will probably sell my DX7 in the near future. I know, there have been some XPS issues, however Jim Drew talks to the customers and either supplies suggestions or to send the unit back for checking. I dont see any other electronic design engineer from Futaba or Spektrum working closely with the customers. I dont work for XPS, Im just a happy customer.

I have been in R/C since 1965 and have had my share of radio problems in the past with the AM systems. Im sure that all the manufacturers will continue to improve the technology and things will get better in the future.

aejar,
Sorry I did not real all of you posts. Looks like you have everything covered. Thanks

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. There is no lock out issues with Spektrum, there is only user issus with batteries. Many have gotten lazy about battery maintance. I know for a fact that the Spektrum techs have called customers when they have problems to help them one on one.
The issue is which is better and that is a choice you make. Dennis

DavKhy

My Feedback: (2)

The info about Spektrum is from RunRyder posts from other users. I find it hard to believe that that many people neglect their batteries, but maybe so.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

DavKHy,

Thanks for the report. Seems you have both systems and both have worked as advertised with no issues. You have a preference for one and are planning to standardize on that one. Makes sense!

Very helpful. We appreaciate your sharing your experience.

Thanks!

roushd1r

I fly everyday (yes, everyday), weather permitting. 10 flights minimum a day x 300 days. - 130 days for bad weather, x 2 years= 6,000 flights with the AR6000, 6100, 7000 and BR6000. Not one glitch. Individual channel failsafe can be had with the BR6000. It is for "robots", but works perfectly with planes. I couldn't say a bad thing. On a clear day, I have flown as high as I could with the AR6000, and still had control. The plane was literally a speck... I fly in the rain and fog, and that will be the only time I notice a difference in the distance, which is still "visual range". 2.4ghz is a small wave so it can get "lost" in inclement weather. It is also somewhat directional, that is why you can change the angle of the antenna on the transmitter. I keep mine vertical to the ground. With all the changes in weather out here, and number of flights, I couldn't be swayed to another product.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

Based on the sales numbers I've seen Spextrum seems to be the number one choice with XTM second and Futaba a poor third. The question of which is better will never be answered because i believe they are all good, only time will sort out the "winner" if there is such a thing. I made my move with the first system came out. But to be fare in the post I am a JR dealer. If XTM had been on the market first I may have gone that direction.
As far as the battery issue based on the current post that seems to have become a non issue as more people understand the systems better and have upgraded their RX batteries and watch them closer. I don't think it was neglect but the lack of knowledge.
My concern is in the long haul. Who will still be in the market five, ten years down the line. As new 2.4 radio's come out will the market for the moduals dry up.
We have all three systems flying at our field without any mishaps. At the last big heli show with 720 pilots only 130 of them were on 72 and had to be inpounded. What systems were the other 600 using nobody said, but this show proved that 72 is on the way out.
Use the one you like and can afford and thats the best one for you. Dennis

tadawson

One of the best features of the XTM is the support for pretty much any brand - something that neither Spektrum or Futaba can claim. The total interoperability of radios and aircraft, which let's me buy the TX I want to buy, and not be brand locked is huge.
Or, to fly the same plane with any radio, with no aircraft equipment changes. HUGE!!!! On this basis, I think its XPS, Spektrum, and Futaba lagging on dead last with a proprietary Futaba-only system.

- Tim

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

I may be wrong but Spektrum will work on all the radio systems. JR, Futaba and HiTech. It is my understanding that Futaba will not work on JR but will work with HiTech. Again tadawson, you bring up my main point. At some time in the future the radio companies will stop making 72 and doing service on them. When will that happen, nobody knows. My guess is within 10yrs of the last 72 radio made. If you'll remember the move to narrow band in 92, it wasn't long before the radio companies quick doing the change over on the old radios. Even today its cheaper to buy a new radio then narrow band a old one. Until this happens it's a wide open market. Dennis

tkilwein

Spectrum, XPS, JR, Futaba and any others, WHO will be around in a few years or more for service?
Who has a good product you trust with your pocket book?
Who has good service and good communications in place? I don't mean 24hr by 7days, just 5x8.
My personal experience with Futaba and JR was good, even if it was just a question or service checkup.

My 9zhs I bought in 94 and it is now my backup-buddy box, 13years later, I can still can get it worked on.
I could probably even get my retired JR Galaxy 8 worked on, yes I still have it collecting dust.
My money will go to Futaba when they get out, I am in no rush to have 2.4GHz at this moment.

I have had a few no name brands, Cirrus, JR Galaxy8, JR10x, Futaba 4??, 8uap, 6xh, 9ZHPS and now 14mz.
Some have come and gone, JR and Futaba have always been there, since 82 when I started RC.

It sucks when you invest large $ into something and the company just disapears when you need them.
Been there done that.

Just my 2cents.
Tony

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

When you say 'XTM' are you referring to XPS?

Don Lowe

Thought I would add my two cents worth. I have flown Spektrum(DX6,DX7 and module extensively since last year. I have flown two versions of the Extreme. The Spektrum systems have been solid in 8 different models. I had difficulty with Xtreme(lockouts) until they modified it with the new antenna. I fly it now with the Spektrum antenna because I like the antenna orientation better. So far it seems solid. I have flown the Futaba(FAST) 6-channel and their new module system. Both seemed to be tight links. There is no question in my mind but what SS is the future. I have recently witnessed two shootdowns locally with 72. People are people and these things happen; this CANNOT happen with SS. I have also seen severe ignition noise problems resolved by a switch to SS; a real PLUS for large model flyers.

roushd1r

As far as being brand locked, you are. It's irrelevant what transmitter brand you use, the electronics are forcing you to be "brand loyal". The transmitter is just a box with sticks without it's transmission circuitry. The features in the software are useless, if it can't get to the receiver. Until another company makes a 2.4 Ghz receiver (as with the 72 Mhz systems),you will be "brand locked". Hopefully they will standardize the 2.4Ghz protocol, so other manufacturers can develop receivers, and then we can see some more variety in the marketplace. For a while I couldn't find any AR6000 receivers. They were back-ordered for a month due to demand, and the Chinese new year. That is when I wished Castle Creations, or another manufacturer were on the 2.4Ghz bandwagon.

Phil Heller

My Feedback: (9)

As with radios, engines, kits, arfs or anything else - in RC or in life, what you have that works for you is "The Best"!

Phil

coronabob

My Feedback: (10)

From an engineering standpoint, the specifications on the Xtreme won points with me. Xtreme is a technical marvel compared to the rest.

ntsmith

Who cares? Do yorself and Spektrum a favour and go buy the complete thing. Spektrum are fabulous.

tadawson

That has got to be the worst excuse for buying what may be an inferior technology that I have ever heard . . . really! It matters not if it's a module or an entire transmitter. Heck, the Spektrum transmitters are so low end right now that I would make a point of NOT buying one . . . . not when I can convert what I have (should I choose to do so . . . ).

- Tim