Ladyflyer

My Feedback: (2)

It would be totally irresponsible for any one to offer information on increasing range when doing so is obviously illegal . There are many reasons for the rules and regs.
The fact the individual is astute enough to rig a video transmitter but has no idea how to effectively increase the range would lead me to believe the person shouldn't be running any more range or the question was meant to cause controversy .
Why would anyone seek to increase the range after learning it is illegal and or they may cause damage or injury to other people enjoying the hobby legally ? Let alone innocent people who may wind up in the trajectory of this soon to be cruise missile.
He can probably find out how to increase the range without our help . Better that we have no part in it .

Steve and John B as usual polite ,constructive answers.
The flamers as usual only came to flame and again contributed nothing to the question at hand, only to complain in the manner of other's responses.

TomM

3 element yagi antenna aimed hand-held by an assistant.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/antennae3ycalc.html

Hyrax

quote:
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Originally posted by Ladyflyer

It would be totally irresponsible for any one to offer information on increasing range when doing so is obviously illegal. There are many reasons for the rules and regs.
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I feel we are going over old ground here but I’ll try one more time. YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE HE’S FLYING, AND YOU DON’T KNOW THE RULES AND REGS IN HIS COUNTRY!!!

quote:
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Originally posted by Ladyflyer

The fact the individual is astute enough to rig a video transmitter but has no idea how to effectively increase the range would lead me to believe the person shouldn't be running any more range
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Are you saying that because he was able to put a video transmitter on his plane(2.4 GHz microwave) that he should now know all worldly information ascertaining to the behavior and amplification of RF radiation (36MHz or 72Mhz). That is absurd.

Ladyflyer are you in the media? What a beat up! With no facts and making assumptions you have presented a bleeding heart story about illegalities, damage and injury and “innocent victims”. And nothing strikes fear into the heart of a member of the community like the idea of a “cruise missile” bearing down on their innocent selves. Please get hold of yourself. You’ve been watching to many terrorism news articles.

On a lighter note, thank you TomM. Visited your link. A very simple and cost effective way to boost the range. By doing this you are not increasing the gross power output of your transmitter, just concentrating it into a directional beam. This would not effect other hobby users in comparison to upping the power to an omni direction antenna.

kcrunch racer x

i sat back and read and thought to myself let it go but i cant. to interject on a personal note i have a friend that was injured several years ago by a plane that went out of range from the field. it was found that the remote and the reciever had been tampered with. the flyer had the guys name easily traceable and my brother-in-laws nephew was paralized for approximately 4 years. it was not pretty. the thought that others have not tried to change the total range of the tx is crazy of coourse we all woould like to do something or another i have created so many mods overh te year that i may as well patent them LOL. but they were all to the love of my hobby which is a big part of my life as well as all of you here that is whay we spend time talking to each other ot attempt to tap the minds and vast wells of experience and the knowledge pools.

guys dont insult just make your oppinion which you are entitled to and state facts not fiction and leave the flame wars out of it. that is the part of boards that we all could do without.

Steve Lewin

Those of us that can read do know where john is. His location says he's in London, England, UK. He could be lying but why would you assume that ? I too am in the UK and I do have a fair grasp of the rules and regulations that apply in my own country. That's why I explained some that he may not have been aware of.

I see you still haven't got round to offering any technical help. BTW, for your information, we don't fly on either 36MHz or 72MHz.


Steve

bassmanh

My Feedback: (5)

well i to was going to leave this alone but i just cant. i have only been in the hobby for a short time, but have read and understand why things like this SHOULD NOT BE DONE......

awhile back in the AMA magazine they had an article about such things as using planes with GPS units and other ways of flying beyond sight range and how it may cause problems. it has nothing to do with rules and regulations it has to do with responsibility to our hobby and keeping it from being scrutinized by the FAA and not giving the people who want our hobby shut down anymore ammo.....

it all comes down to BEING A RESPONSIBLE FLY-ER AND KEEPING THIS WONDERFUL HOBBY SAFE AND SECURE FOR ALL OF US IN THE FUTURE.

and no i am not giving any advise on how to get more range from a TX as it is not something that i feel needs to be done as it will ONLY HURT OUR HOBBY.

my .02 worth thanks for listening :disappoin

David Cutler

You like to make enemies, don't you?

It's older people now as well?

Leave it alone please. This is a great forum, full of helpful kind people. Whey not join them?

-David C.

ECStrat

Hey johninformation Did you ever get any help ? I just wasted 30 minutes reading this thread and was surprised that no one here has ever done ATV. I would have to agree with most as flying away from ya is not a good idea but the video is cool. I put a camera in a 1/4 glider years ago and it was pretty cool. I found with the 8mm CCD cameras the 16mm lens worked the best. About the range though, the one thing to keep in mind is stray RF getting into the RX of the aircraft. I built a filter circuit for the RX antenna and wrapped all the leads with toroids to help with the stray RF. Also with the big cockpit all the video was mounted in the nose and was able to shield it with copper foil as all the radio gear was under the wing root area. I just had a 1/4 wave antenna coming out of the nose of the glider and the copper foil acted as the ground plane. Also keep in mind that when you can't ground anything to the earth the radio waves radiate from everything hooked to the video camera(Including the grounds). Aside from breaking the law the best bet would have a helper point the video receiver antenna ( a higain tuned antenna)at the aircraft and hopefully the video transmitter has a output control where it is best to use the least amount of power for the video camera. Keep in mind if you remember the old AM days where one could easily get swamped and shot down if you flew close to someone holding another transmitter on a different frequency. Same thing holds true even though they are on totally different bands.

Good luck and have fun with the camera and by the way I will be going to Bournemouth soon to do some ridge soaring

EC

rc-cam

My Feedback: (1)

I think it has been established that the topic's author is located in the UK. In the UK, the max EFFECTIVE RADIATED RF POWER for radio controlled models is 100mW (0.1W). Any attempts to increase this, including adjuncts to the antenna system, custom adjustments, or mods to the RF amp, will result is a violation of the Queen's RA regs and ETSI.

http://www.radio.gov.uk/publication/ra_info/ra60.htm

The workaround is to leave the Tx alone. Instead, make all your improvements to the Rx. A skilled radio tech could replace the existing Rx aerial with an ideal 1/4 wave length, counterpoise it with a 1/4 matching element tied to the Rx's RF ground, AND optimize the antenna matching network (perhaps as simple as a antenna matching coil tweak).

I estimate that this will result in at least a +6dB of gain, which is the same as quadrupling the Tx's RF power! This will double the existing range. No violations will occur if you leave the Tx power alone.

Lastly, my opinion is that anyone that is not a skilled RF tech should just forgot any idea of hacking your R/C Tx's or Rx's RF circuitry. Your DC circuit education/experience will do you no good in this domain. As such, the mods should be performed by someone that knows what they are doing.

BTW, under typical circumstances, regardless of global territory, ad hoc increases of an unlicensed R/C transmitter's RF power will end up violating some part of the radio spectrum regulations. If there are any countries out there that have no restrictions then please forward specific information on the local regs. It would be interesting to see what countries have such rules.

Ladyflyer

My Feedback: (2)

Well hyrax,
Yes ,I did READ that he was in Great Britain . Your assertion that I did not know was of course baseless. In England it IS ILLEGAL to boost the EFFECTIVE RADIATED POWER so your yagi thing is out the window as well.
Yes other than optimizing the equipment he has or working on the receive end , it is illegal to do what he is asking and yes the range expansion methods are basic .

Your poor leap of logic regarding my statement about knowledge is a bit off target. What I said was if he can rig the video but has no idea how to increase the range of a low VHF signal I would be led to belive he shouldn't be attempting in the first place .

For YOU to assert "that he should now know all worldly information ascertaining to the behavior and amplification of RF radiation (36MHz or 72Mhz). to increase his range is indeed absurd . For you to claim we are out of line somehow by pointing out the shortfalls of his intentions is beyond absurdity . (BTW the word is PERTAINING to ,not ASCERTAINING )
YOU are the one in need of a grip on yourself .


It is dangerous for someone with that lack of knowledge to fly outside the range of vision.
No ,I have nothing to do with the media. I like RC flying and have no wish for ignorant irresponsible people to give the hobby a black eye.
The law limits us to the lowest common denominator at times for good reason. There are exceptions that sneak in below th lowest unfortunately.

The LEGALITIES are not "baseless" at all they are FACT your contrary aSSertion is quite baseless. I have every right to comment on the possible downside and there is no doubt a plane causing injury to someone that had a pilot four miles away would make for bad press. It is hard enough to get and keep good flying sites.

hyrax Quote:

"I feel we are going over old ground here but I’ll try one more time. YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE HE’S FLYING, AND YOU DON’T KNOW THE RULES AND REGS IN HIS COUNTRY!!! "

I do know quite a bit about the RULES in that country . I may well know more about that than you.
It was however a BASELESS statement on your part. Not the first ,of that I AM sure.

Hyrax you have pretty much shown us your stuff . Rant on if you wish , I for one have already given you more time than you are worth .

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

LF, you're a spirited lass a'right. There might be some Scots genes in ye right enuff!

ECStrat

Just remember when you modify a RX antenna you need to re tune the front end of the receiver. I would not recommend it if one does not have the proper equipment to do so.

WOW a 1/4 wave at 35mhz = 14+feet overall length I have a plane that big.

Hyrax

way off topic

rc-cam

My Feedback: (1)

Yup, each element would be about 6.7 feet long. That would be accommodated on a larger model by stringing it out from the fuselage mounted Rx, to the wingtip, then routed back towards the tail (or follow the curvature of the wing). At 72Mhz it is a much more cooperative installation.

David Cutler

Looks like Ladyflyer had better change her name to Desdemona now.

-DC

Hyrax

Croak

David Cutler

Exeunt all players; including the frog.

-DC

visioneer_one

My Feedback: (506)

edited 'cos I liked Hy's treatment of the Play.

Ikaros

About transmitters:

If I had to substantially extend the range, using standard radio gear, I would cascade couple one or more extra receiver-transmitter set ups. It could be done using an interface between the receiver and transmitter, forming a slave transmitter. The location of the slave transmitters would restrict the flying route.

Tampering with the transmitter RF circuitry is illegal in most countries and is of course totally unacceptable.
____________________

About flying beyond visual range:

I do not fly BVR but that is mainly of economical reasons.

Compare flying BVR with a 2,5 kg model, cruising at 50 km/h in the country side, inhabited by let's say 1 person per km˛, to normal flying at the local club with a 1/3 scale Extra, or a turbine-jet cruising at 250 km/h, possibly with 200 people watching.

Any risk should be estimated using hard facts and be compared to other things of about same or higher magnitude.

People tend to under-estimate the risks with things they like and over-estimate the risks with things they don't like.

However, if ever someone gets hurt or killed by a model, flying BVR, it might be outlawed and that would be sad.

It would be better to have restrictions about it before that, making it explicitly legal if done right and minimizing the risks to acceptable levels.

For example, no gasoline, no turbine, max weight X kg, max engine running time X minutes. No operation in urban areas except small electric models like slow-flyers and such.

For many people, this is a very interesting hobby and I understand how fun it is and I do not see anything wrong with it at all.

In the future, you will see a lot of development in this field.

Cheers,
Ikaros

Ladyflyer

My Feedback: (2)

Hello Ikaros,
Flying beyond visual range sounds like it would be a great deal of fun and the challenges rewarding as well.
It would seem best done over water or vast unpopulated areas. Of course the legal ends would require attention as well.
There is a company in Israel that makes GPS gear and microprocessors that enable autopilot type operation.
Of course all of this activity is pretty much advanced operation and it would be near impossible to equip a person with the required abilities in a forum such as this .
Certainly more than any mouse could deliver

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

Ladyflyer,
This company in Israel that makes these things, would you have more info, I am very interested as I am a consultant on a University board and we are working on a project that would require somethings of this nature.

Thanks in advance.

Ladyflyer

My Feedback: (2)

Sure, I'll see if I can find their ad . It was in one of the major magazines.

rc-cam

My Feedback: (1)

This will get you started in your research:

http://www.uavflight.com/UAV_Products.htm
http://www.micropilot.com/
http://www.u-nav.com/
http://www.wecontrol.ch/
http://www.cloudcaptech.com/
http://www.steadicopter.com/

bowanarrow

"Most of us don't fly predator type aircraft. Why in the world would anyone want to fly a hobby aircraft out of his/hers normal range of vision? What is the mission here?

brad"



I got no answer from Hyrax and I guess I didn't really expect one. But I will ask again .. especially interesting because it seems to be his secret.. "What is the mission here"?

brad

SnowOwl

My Feedback: (1)

To Ikaros
(post # 44)

...About transmitters:

...cascade couple one or more extra receiver-transmitter set ups. It could be done using an interface between the receiver and transmitter, forming a slave transmitter...


At the risk of appearing negative, this repeater set-up would be illegal in the U.S. at least. Using a Radio Control system to control another radio is prohibited. I'm pretty sure the posts about improving the receiver antenna system is the most productive avenue to pursue.
I don't know how it is in the U.K., but if you fly this, and any of the many bad things that might go wrong did, whoever your insurer is probably wouldn't have much trouble wriggling out from under the burden you put on them because this is obviously not the activity they agreed to cover.
I remember daydreaming in school about a system a lot like this. Turbine powered of course, with machine guns for chastising my enemies. I can't remember who I wanted to use it on then, but I have a whole list of new names...