Half Scale Nieuport 11
11-11-2015, 09:14 PM
#802
My BUSA 1/3 DR1 is powered with a GT-80 turning a Xoar Axial 28 x 6 prop. I can knife edge from horizon to horizon and hover for a while before it drops off. I have to concentrate to keep it scale for a whole flight (for scale competition). But for Dawn Patrol flying it is a very nice combination.
I think that my tripe would fly with a G-38 ....... granted it would have to stay on the wing and you couldn't horse it around, but I think it would fly.
I learned to fly off of grass with a Goldberg Falcon 56 powered by an OS 40 2 stroke. The plane was originally designed to fly on 3 channels with .19 cubic inch engine.
I experimented and put an OS 25. The prop on the 40 was a 10 x 6 and the prop on the 25 was a 9 x 6. The rpms on both engines were in the same range. On grass it was an adventure to get airborne but on a hard surface took off just fine with the 25. In the air performance was livelier with the 25 because the wing loading was lighter. Speed in level flight was about the same. Naturally the 40 could hang the plane anywhere you wanted.
I guess the point of all my rambling is that flight is not dependent on big power alone, but rather a combination of many things ....... the most important is what the pilot expects from his model. Some of us like to flip the toggle switch on the engine and never look back where as some of us like to fly on the wing and putz around most of the time. The ideal place for me is to be somewhere in between - enough displacement to give spirited aerobatics or scale maneuvering and enough wing area to allow for a nice evening or morning casual flight.
"You pays your money and you makes your choices" (was this a quote from an old Popeye cartoon?) yuk yuk yuk yuk
11-11-2015, 11:37 PM
#803
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I don't generally fly such large models as you ... though I've dabbled from time to time.
I once built a ten-foot Bird Dog, at 22lbs, which flew very well on a Quadra 42. Not a wild aerobat, of course ... but, I chose to build a Bird Dog.
Anyway, I have heard it said that you can build 'em too light. You get into the realm of having high drag, coupled with low inertia, which can make landings a bit fraught if the wind is gusty. So, yeah, it might sometimes be advantageous to trade lightness for practicality.
I once built a ten-foot Bird Dog, at 22lbs, which flew very well on a Quadra 42. Not a wild aerobat, of course ... but, I chose to build a Bird Dog.
Anyway, I have heard it said that you can build 'em too light. You get into the realm of having high drag, coupled with low inertia, which can make landings a bit fraught if the wind is gusty. So, yeah, it might sometimes be advantageous to trade lightness for practicality.
11-12-2015, 10:36 AM
#804
I don't generally fly such large models as you ...
Anyway, I have heard it said that you can build 'em too light. You get into the realm of having high drag, coupled with low inertia, which can make landings a bit fraught if the wind is gusty. So, yeah, it might sometimes be advantageous to trade lightness for practicality.
Anyway, I have heard it said that you can build 'em too light. You get into the realm of having high drag, coupled with low inertia, which can make landings a bit fraught if the wind is gusty. So, yeah, it might sometimes be advantageous to trade lightness for practicality.
I cannot totally agree with that premise. I think you can build them too light in structure - i.e. very fragile and easily broken.
But I don't think they can be too light in wing loading - to me "lighter is definitely better".
Sure the wind can buffet them a bit, but less mass (weight) is easier to control than more mass.
My opinion and you know what is said about opinions .........
11-12-2015, 11:22 AM
#806
Gosh, I hope not ...... I know for sure that is not in this year's budget! (or any year in the near future for that matter)
On paper, Joe, it fits just fine ......... ok, ok .... ok then would you believe it fits, BARELY! I have test fitted the fuselage and that just does fit. The cabanes will have to come off because of the overall height. I am sure it will fit.
Well, at least that is the plan.
On paper, Joe, it fits just fine ......... ok, ok .... ok then would you believe it fits, BARELY! I have test fitted the fuselage and that just does fit. The cabanes will have to come off because of the overall height. I am sure it will fit.
Well, at least that is the plan.
11-12-2015, 12:46 PM
#808
I heard that, Joe! This plane definitely limits me to one model per trip. Unless I can maybe get a quarter scale something or the other to break down far enough that I can get it in my little tear drop camper. mmmmmmmm might be something to consider
11-12-2015, 12:50 PM
#809
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That reminds me that the Nieuport 11 had a ... literally ... fatal design flaw.
The interplane strut is a V, which means that there is only one point of attachment for the lower wing. This (with the flimsy structure) compromises the wing's torsional rigidity such that, at high speeds, the LE can bend down and "tuck under" causing an immediate failure of the wing structure.
No problem if you keep good control of the speed. I had a 1/4 scale version of this type and it flew without problems. Buuuut, I was aware of the flaw. And, now, so are you.
The interplane strut is a V, which means that there is only one point of attachment for the lower wing. This (with the flimsy structure) compromises the wing's torsional rigidity such that, at high speeds, the LE can bend down and "tuck under" causing an immediate failure of the wing structure.
No problem if you keep good control of the speed. I had a 1/4 scale version of this type and it flew without problems. Buuuut, I was aware of the flaw. And, now, so are you.
Last edited by bogbeagle; 11-12-2015 at 01:03 PM.
11-12-2015, 12:51 PM
#810
.....here is one of those occasions where the structure is sound enough for flight loads but needs some gussets added to keep the wing tip glue joint from breaking loose
from hanger rash and possibly that occasional ground loop .....who ? me?
11-12-2015, 01:05 PM
#811
That reminds me that the Nieuport 11 had a ... literally ... fatal design flaw.
The interplane strut is a V, which means that there is only one point of attachment for the lower wing. This compromises the wing's torsional rigidity such that, at high speeds, the LE can bend down and "tuck under" causing an immediate failure of the wing structure.
No problem if you keep good control of the speed. I had a 1/4 scale version of this type and it flew without problems. Buuuut, I was aware of the flaw. And, now, so are you.
The interplane strut is a V, which means that there is only one point of attachment for the lower wing. This compromises the wing's torsional rigidity such that, at high speeds, the LE can bend down and "tuck under" causing an immediate failure of the wing structure.
No problem if you keep good control of the speed. I had a 1/4 scale version of this type and it flew without problems. Buuuut, I was aware of the flaw. And, now, so are you.
Yes, that is true. Fortunately models have a much higher strength to weight factor and it doe not come into play. It was a concern for me mostly because it plays havoc with aileron trims. On my third scale it did not present any kind of a problem until I chicken danced it down the runway a couple of times and the bottom of the v strut attach point loosened up, then the aileron trim changed a lot. In the air, my design has proven strong for any kind of flight loads that I subject it to and I have flown it pretty hard powered with a G-62.
But point taken, I will fly this a bit more sedately than my 1/3 scale.....and sneak up on the more violent maneuvers and heavier air loads.
11-23-2015, 05:45 PM
#812
Turtle Report:
Started work on the rear cabane ..... GTM 1/3 scale Fokker strut material joined at the top with 1/8" x 1/2" steel from Ace Hardware. JB Weld was used to join them. It will attach to the fuse with 1/8" x 1/2" aluminum also from Ace. Normally I would use a #4 bolt, but since this will be assembled and reassembled with each use, I plan on using #6 bolts and blind nuts - easier to handle and easier to see when dropped in the grass.
Started work on the rear cabane ..... GTM 1/3 scale Fokker strut material joined at the top with 1/8" x 1/2" steel from Ace Hardware. JB Weld was used to join them. It will attach to the fuse with 1/8" x 1/2" aluminum also from Ace. Normally I would use a #4 bolt, but since this will be assembled and reassembled with each use, I plan on using #6 bolts and blind nuts - easier to handle and easier to see when dropped in the grass.
11-27-2015, 09:49 AM
#813
Turtle Report:
Still working on the cabanes ..... do you know how many ways there are to measure and set up this model? ..... and how many steps are involved with the process?
Answer - Almost more than I can count ........level the building board in all directions (the board was already straight and true but wasn't plumbed exactly square to the world) ....then level the plane (I am using top longerons as the reference) ....... then adjust the forward cabanes to get the wing incidence to the proper setting, in this case it is 1 degree ........ then trammel the wing (measure from tail to each wing tip and adjust until the measurements are equal ..... then make sure that the stab and wings are level to each other ...... cut and fit the cabane material and mount to the fuse and go thru all of the above procedures again...... WHEW
Then hang the bottom wings doing all the aforementioned again, or most of them.
Then make and mount the brackets for the flying and landing wire attachments ...... fit all the wires and then do all of the steps listed above for one last time (we hope).
Anyhow, the process continues ........
Still working on the cabanes ..... do you know how many ways there are to measure and set up this model? ..... and how many steps are involved with the process?
Answer - Almost more than I can count ........level the building board in all directions (the board was already straight and true but wasn't plumbed exactly square to the world) ....then level the plane (I am using top longerons as the reference) ....... then adjust the forward cabanes to get the wing incidence to the proper setting, in this case it is 1 degree ........ then trammel the wing (measure from tail to each wing tip and adjust until the measurements are equal ..... then make sure that the stab and wings are level to each other ...... cut and fit the cabane material and mount to the fuse and go thru all of the above procedures again...... WHEW
Then hang the bottom wings doing all the aforementioned again, or most of them.
Then make and mount the brackets for the flying and landing wire attachments ...... fit all the wires and then do all of the steps listed above for one last time (we hope).
Anyhow, the process continues ........
11-27-2015, 04:48 PM
#815
The bottom bracket to strut fittings have now been secured with JB Weld. Bolting them to the fuse sides is next (after the JB Weld sets up), then on to the front cabanes.
11-28-2015, 07:34 PM
#820
Hey, while we are the subject of pertinent catch phrases, Arts build reminds me of another saying a friend told me once... We were discussing some really good deals on cheap arfs and less than stellar looking airplane kits.
He turned to me ..dead sober..face unflinching and said...
"Lifes to short to fly ugly airplanes"
He never cracked a smile, and I can't say he invented that line.. but I was laughing pretty hard about it then, and I agree with it more all the time.
He turned to me ..dead sober..face unflinching and said...
"Lifes to short to fly ugly airplanes"
He never cracked a smile, and I can't say he invented that line.. but I was laughing pretty hard about it then, and I agree with it more all the time.
11-29-2015, 05:59 AM
#821
My Feedback: (34)
Art, progress is steady and true!
We did some 1/3 flying yesterday and my friend Mark has a 1/3 tripe and I flew my E(v) D-VIII. He is having some landing problems as it "chicken dances" on the wing tips and tips over on landing. Any advise? I think he is trying to land too slow and in a stall attitude.
We did some 1/3 flying yesterday and my friend Mark has a 1/3 tripe and I flew my E(v) D-VIII. He is having some landing problems as it "chicken dances" on the wing tips and tips over on landing. Any advise? I think he is trying to land too slow and in a stall attitude.
11-29-2015, 06:06 AM
#822
My Feedback: (34)
I did my first loops with D-VIII yesterday on flight number 9. She is 40 lbs and G62 with Axial xoar 24x6 (6600rpm) First was diving down about 15 degrees and pull elev without much drama.
However, second loop same entry. Damn rudder touchy as all heck. I just touched it slightly for right rudder just at the top of the loop, as with my other planes, and it snapped out at the top to the left, then started the spin to the right but pretty nosed own. Recovered fine in about 75-100ft altitude loss.
As Stuka Barry told me the rule is: no rudder expect on T-off or landings. I will try those PK props you sold me too!
So now Im ready to make the trip to Southern Dawn Patrol, 4,5 Dec in Georgia. Any of you Midwest hot dogs going?
However, second loop same entry. Damn rudder touchy as all heck. I just touched it slightly for right rudder just at the top of the loop, as with my other planes, and it snapped out at the top to the left, then started the spin to the right but pretty nosed own. Recovered fine in about 75-100ft altitude loss.
As Stuka Barry told me the rule is: no rudder expect on T-off or landings. I will try those PK props you sold me too!
So now Im ready to make the trip to Southern Dawn Patrol, 4,5 Dec in Georgia. Any of you Midwest hot dogs going?
Last edited by FireBee; 11-29-2015 at 06:15 AM.
11-29-2015, 07:57 AM
#823
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." ........and the same applies to ugly, too.
I thought that my old wing warping Eindecker was ugly as hell, but after flying it for 6 or 7 years it had become a thing of beauty.
The take away is that nothing is "static" but constantly and forever changing.
As for tips on Mark's chicken dance to nose over landings ......... insure the wheels are tracking true and that it has equal camber in each wheel ......... triple check the CG ......... wheel landings are preferred until intimate knowledge born of experience warrants otherwise ........ if it is a scale outline tripe such as a GTM kit, there will be a smaller margin for error, but if it is a BUSA DR1, well that is another story entirely. I have been flying my BUSA tripe with a GT-80 for 2 full flying seasons and have yet to nose it over (well except for when I landed it in the rough) ....... I have certainly used the wing tip skids a few times and whole heartedly recommend that they be on the model.
......... oh don't forget to use the "RUDDER!"
In any case, burn lots of fuel and shoot lots of touch and go's and practice landing until it becomes second nature. There are so many things that can go wrong it is very tough to give specific advice without actually observing the "chicken dancing".
Cheers,
Art
I thought that my old wing warping Eindecker was ugly as hell, but after flying it for 6 or 7 years it had become a thing of beauty.
The take away is that nothing is "static" but constantly and forever changing
.As for tips on Mark's chicken dance to nose over landings ......... insure the wheels are tracking true and that it has equal camber in each wheel ......... triple check the CG ......... wheel landings are preferred until intimate knowledge born of experience warrants otherwise ........ if it is a scale outline tripe such as a GTM kit, there will be a smaller margin for error, but if it is a BUSA DR1, well that is another story entirely. I have been flying my BUSA tripe with a GT-80 for 2 full flying seasons and have yet to nose it over (well except for when I landed it in the rough) ....... I have certainly used the wing tip skids a few times and whole heartedly recommend that they be on the model.
......... oh don't forget to use the "RUDDER!"
In any case, burn lots of fuel and shoot lots of touch and go's and practice landing until it becomes second nature. There are so many things that can go wrong it is very tough to give specific advice without actually observing the "chicken dancing".
Cheers,
Art
11-29-2015, 03:58 PM
#824
Senior Member
If color opacity is wanted, may I suggest using home latex paint? That may be the least expensive option, particularly for a model this size. You should be able to get the exact color match you want at your local Home Depot or Lowes. There is a guy here in the NE that uses the paint ( I don't remember his name, sorry) and reports excellent results. Will probably take some experimentation to get the right consistency for spraying but for this group, that's par for the course, no?
I used Stits system once. Instant sensitivity to the solvent. The smell alone from just opening a can makes me throw up. No ER visits thank goodness and I won't tempt fate any more.
11-29-2015, 08:09 PM
#825
Hey Matt
Welcome to our world of "Dawn Patrol"...... and thanks for the good words. I (a lot of us do) use latex house paint on my last couple of three models coupled with some rattle can stuff in a few places. It works really well ...... I usually mix in a little bit of additive to help it flow out a bit and reduce brush marks. Back in the day most of the finishes were brushed on .......
Balsa USA is a good place to shop if you are looking for 1/3 scale kits. They all fly well. I am not aware of any commercially available larger than third scale WW1 models except for the Bill Hemple 65% DR1. Most of the larger models are from blown up plans or built from 3 views or factory drawings. Vogelsang is another good source of 1/3 scale WW1 model kits.
I think you will find the Dawn Patrol events a lot different and a bit more relaxing than competitive aerobatics.
There is also a lot of good information on RC Scale Builders web site .... and a bunch of good builders and very helpful, too.
Chime in any time.
Cheers,
Art
Welcome to our world of "Dawn Patrol"...... and thanks for the good words. I (a lot of us do) use latex house paint on my last couple of three models coupled with some rattle can stuff in a few places. It works really well ...... I usually mix in a little bit of additive to help it flow out a bit and reduce brush marks. Back in the day most of the finishes were brushed on .......
Balsa USA is a good place to shop if you are looking for 1/3 scale kits. They all fly well. I am not aware of any commercially available larger than third scale WW1 models except for the Bill Hemple 65% DR1. Most of the larger models are from blown up plans or built from 3 views or factory drawings. Vogelsang is another good source of 1/3 scale WW1 model kits.
I think you will find the Dawn Patrol events a lot different and a bit more relaxing than competitive aerobatics.
There is also a lot of good information on RC Scale Builders web site .... and a bunch of good builders and very helpful, too.
Chime in any time.
Cheers,
Art