Building and Flying WWI Biplanes etc.
12-18-2002, 03:42 PM
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I have limited flying experience (Almost ready to solo) and just finished building a Fourstar 60
( http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jchumley/fourstar.jpg, easy to build, looks good, waiting for weather to fly ) .
I am embarking on an ambitious project, a Proctor Nieuport 28. I have extensive experience in wood working so I think I can handle the buillding. I also work a few blocks form THe Smithsonian Air and Space where I can peruse the restoration documentation for the N28 they restored a few years ago. I have no Idea what it is like to fly one though. I have heard differing opinions about flying WWI biplanes. Am I going to end up with a great looking (I hope, I hope, I hope) plane that is no fun to fly or is it a matter of set up and expectations?
Some posts have mentioned the need for coordinated turns. What are coordinated turns?
While I am asking, I am converting a homelite 33cc to power this plane. (I would love a five cylindar radial but I could cojnvert five of these engines for less $). Will the 33cc be too much power?
Lets see. That about covers it for now. Mostly I guess I want some insight into actually flying these things.
Thanks,
Jeff
( http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jchumley/fourstar.jpg, easy to build, looks good, waiting for weather to fly ) .
I am embarking on an ambitious project, a Proctor Nieuport 28. I have extensive experience in wood working so I think I can handle the buillding. I also work a few blocks form THe Smithsonian Air and Space where I can peruse the restoration documentation for the N28 they restored a few years ago. I have no Idea what it is like to fly one though. I have heard differing opinions about flying WWI biplanes. Am I going to end up with a great looking (I hope, I hope, I hope) plane that is no fun to fly or is it a matter of set up and expectations?
Some posts have mentioned the need for coordinated turns. What are coordinated turns?
While I am asking, I am converting a homelite 33cc to power this plane. (I would love a five cylindar radial but I could cojnvert five of these engines for less $). Will the 33cc be too much power?
Lets see. That about covers it for now. Mostly I guess I want some insight into actually flying these things.
Thanks,
Jeff
12-18-2002, 03:54 PM
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Hey JWC,
I don't think you will have any trouble flying the Nieuport. Like most biplanes it will fly slow & easy. As far as the turns, I usually mix in a little rudder with the ailerons to get that nice scale turn. I saw you were going to use a Homelite 33cc on the plane and that is what got my attention. I am a partner with RS Engines located at http://webpages.charter.net/rsengineconversions/ and it just so happens we convert the Homelite 33cc and sell it as the Brute33. When you start the conversion on your engine, just give us an e-mail and we can help you on parts and advice. The advice is free.
I don't think you will have any trouble flying the Nieuport. Like most biplanes it will fly slow & easy. As far as the turns, I usually mix in a little rudder with the ailerons to get that nice scale turn. I saw you were going to use a Homelite 33cc on the plane and that is what got my attention. I am a partner with RS Engines located at http://webpages.charter.net/rsengineconversions/ and it just so happens we convert the Homelite 33cc and sell it as the Brute33. When you start the conversion on your engine, just give us an e-mail and we can help you on parts and advice. The advice is free.
12-18-2002, 04:01 PM
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A coordinated turn is one in which you apply aileron AND rudder in the same direction. The purpose is to keep the tail "up" in the turn. Some planes require this, or the tail will slide down, and sometimes bad things happen.
12-18-2002, 05:13 PM
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engine choice
The 28 is a great flying airplane. They do require an attentive pilot because you must fly all axes simultaneously. Landings require specific attention that the airplane is traveling in the same direction relative to ground-- i.e. if you are skewed when you touch down froma cross wind, the dance will begin and it usually ends with the airplane on its back. I have extensive experience with the proctor N-11. It all boils down to the moment you touch down.
That being said, I have seen one 28 that was flown with a Webra Bully 35. The power was absurd, and the vibration was even worse. The owner finally removed it and put a four stroke in. I would caution against the use of an engine like this personally. I would highly recomend that you speak to Gary or Joe at Proctor-- look them up at www. proctor-enterprises.com.
Jeff Lovitt
That being said, I have seen one 28 that was flown with a Webra Bully 35. The power was absurd, and the vibration was even worse. The owner finally removed it and put a four stroke in. I would caution against the use of an engine like this personally. I would highly recomend that you speak to Gary or Joe at Proctor-- look them up at www. proctor-enterprises.com.
Jeff Lovitt
12-18-2002, 05:15 PM
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RS engines
Thanks wrhardin. I have checked out your site and emailed asking about the availability of mufflers. I have since learned that I work with someone who used to fly RC and has metal fabricating skills and a shop in his basement so we are going to make the parts I need (I see new tools in my future) and he will turn and balance the flywheel. In fact. I am thinking about a prop nut shaped like the front of a Gnome Rotary engine just for kicks. I do have a question though. I called CH ignitions about electronifying this engine but it would be custom work unless the shaft taper happens to be an exact match for one of his stock conversions. Do you know if the taper is the same as the Homelite 30 or 25?
Thanks, Jeff
Thanks, Jeff
12-18-2002, 06:21 PM
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JWC,
The taper and thread size are the same as on the Homelite 25cc and 30cc so the same prop spool will work. The timing trigger (hall effect transistor) will need a custom mount. Here at RS Engines, we are working on the timing trigger mount for the Brute series engines and it should be ready by about mid Feb.
The vibration that Jeff Lovitt mentioned in his post may be a problem with any single cylinder gas engine. Be careful with the fly wheel to take the material off uniformally and be sure the center is at exactly 90 degrees to the crank shaft all around. You might also want to consider using the Dubro soft mounts that are made for a 120 four stroke.
We have a B&B muffler to fit the Homelite 33cc
and should have a Slimline pitts style by early in the year.
The taper and thread size are the same as on the Homelite 25cc and 30cc so the same prop spool will work. The timing trigger (hall effect transistor) will need a custom mount. Here at RS Engines, we are working on the timing trigger mount for the Brute series engines and it should be ready by about mid Feb.
The vibration that Jeff Lovitt mentioned in his post may be a problem with any single cylinder gas engine. Be careful with the fly wheel to take the material off uniformally and be sure the center is at exactly 90 degrees to the crank shaft all around. You might also want to consider using the Dubro soft mounts that are made for a 120 four stroke.
We have a B&B muffler to fit the Homelite 33cc
and should have a Slimline pitts style by early in the year.
12-19-2002, 12:54 AM
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Building and Flying WWI Biplanes etc.
Hi JWC:
I have a Proctor Nieuport 28 powered by a Magnum 1.6 four stroke twin. This setup is near perfect and gives very realistic flight performance (including sound). I do think a gas engine would be overkill for this model, from both a power and vibration standpoint.
I've found that mixing in about 20% rudder with ailerons really smooths out the turns and significantly improves roll rate.
The model is extremely easy to take off, even from a paved runway with just the tailskid. Just get the tail up early in the T/O roll. Landings are equally easy, although in a crosswind it can be a challenge to keep her off the wingtips.
You'll enjoy this project, I'd build another in a minute.
Take care
I have a Proctor Nieuport 28 powered by a Magnum 1.6 four stroke twin. This setup is near perfect and gives very realistic flight performance (including sound). I do think a gas engine would be overkill for this model, from both a power and vibration standpoint.
I've found that mixing in about 20% rudder with ailerons really smooths out the turns and significantly improves roll rate.
The model is extremely easy to take off, even from a paved runway with just the tailskid. Just get the tail up early in the T/O roll. Landings are equally easy, although in a crosswind it can be a challenge to keep her off the wingtips.
You'll enjoy this project, I'd build another in a minute.
Take care
12-19-2002, 06:44 PM
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jwc,
I think the 33cc Homelite conversion would work fine in that plane. I'm putting one in my BUSA Fokker Triplane. I've run it several times on a test stand and it is very smooth and easy to start. Vibration does not seem excessive. I'm also using the stock expansion muffler because there's plenty of room in the cowl. The sound wouldn't be as nice as something like a twin 4-stroke, but I really like the economy and reliability of gas engines.
I agree with everybody about the use of rudder. WW1 planes are kind of slow, so they need more help from the rudder, otherwise you'll get an ugly, sideslipping kind of turn. Differential aileron throws (more up movement than down) help some. I had to put a lot of aileron throw in the ailerons of my BUSA Nieu28 to get it to do a roll. It has a 23cc gas engine in it. The Proctor Nieu28s that I've seen at contests and airshows fly very well. I think all of them have had some kind of 4-stroke in them.
R/C Scale International had a couple of nice articles on the Proctor kit this past year. You might be able to find them at their website. It's called Traplet Publications.
Jim
I think the 33cc Homelite conversion would work fine in that plane. I'm putting one in my BUSA Fokker Triplane. I've run it several times on a test stand and it is very smooth and easy to start. Vibration does not seem excessive. I'm also using the stock expansion muffler because there's plenty of room in the cowl. The sound wouldn't be as nice as something like a twin 4-stroke, but I really like the economy and reliability of gas engines.
I agree with everybody about the use of rudder. WW1 planes are kind of slow, so they need more help from the rudder, otherwise you'll get an ugly, sideslipping kind of turn. Differential aileron throws (more up movement than down) help some. I had to put a lot of aileron throw in the ailerons of my BUSA Nieu28 to get it to do a roll. It has a 23cc gas engine in it. The Proctor Nieu28s that I've seen at contests and airshows fly very well. I think all of them have had some kind of 4-stroke in them.
R/C Scale International had a couple of nice articles on the Proctor kit this past year. You might be able to find them at their website. It's called Traplet Publications.
Jim
12-20-2002, 01:10 AM
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jwc,
My Proctor Nie28 has been flying since 1987. It's powered by an OS 160 twin which gives it scale-like flight with very short take-offs. For a scale airplane, I can't think of an easier plane to fly-you made a great choice!
Just two things to add to the good advice you have received above: 1. In addition to coordinating rudder and aileron to initiate the bank, it also requires a touch of in-turn rudder during the turn. This prevents it from slipping, losing altitude and/or airspeed. 2. Like most big scale planes, it likes to have some throttle left in until just before touchdown. Aside from those two things, it flys like a Telemaster.
The uncovered structure is a thing of beauty-maybe you could post some pictures when you get it framed up?
My Proctor Nie28 has been flying since 1987. It's powered by an OS 160 twin which gives it scale-like flight with very short take-offs. For a scale airplane, I can't think of an easier plane to fly-you made a great choice!
Just two things to add to the good advice you have received above: 1. In addition to coordinating rudder and aileron to initiate the bank, it also requires a touch of in-turn rudder during the turn. This prevents it from slipping, losing altitude and/or airspeed. 2. Like most big scale planes, it likes to have some throttle left in until just before touchdown. Aside from those two things, it flys like a Telemaster.
The uncovered structure is a thing of beauty-maybe you could post some pictures when you get it framed up?
12-20-2002, 02:06 PM
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Building and Flying WWI Biplanes etc.
Don't forget the incidence meter. It can spell the difference between a great flying bipe and a dog!
BTW, I've had Bill Effinger's plans for the 80" Nieuport 28 for years. Now that I can get the cowl and accessories from BUSA, I might just have to build it. I think it may be the prettiest of all the WWI scouts with the possible exception of the Nieuport-11 and the Nieuport-17.
BTW, I've had Bill Effinger's plans for the 80" Nieuport 28 for years. Now that I can get the cowl and accessories from BUSA, I might just have to build it. I think it may be the prettiest of all the WWI scouts with the possible exception of the Nieuport-11 and the Nieuport-17.
12-21-2002, 04:00 AM
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Here's another "Hat-In-The-Ring" Nieuport 28. I built this one from the BUSA kit. Modified the LG and struts to be more scale and put some undercamber in the ribs for the same reason. It's powered by a 23cc gas engine and flies great. No vibration problems whatsoever and no ballast needed in the nose.
Jim
Jim
12-21-2002, 04:52 AM
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Tmoth4-
Great job on James Meissner's #8 Nieuport! A book I just read said that he survived a mid-air collision with a German fighter in that exact airplane.
In your photo gallery it has a great view of that Liberty Loan poster on the lower wing-how did you do that? Looks very professional.
Let's see some more N28s, maybe we could have a fly-in? :idea:
Great job on James Meissner's #8 Nieuport! A book I just read said that he survived a mid-air collision with a German fighter in that exact airplane.
In your photo gallery it has a great view of that Liberty Loan poster on the lower wing-how did you do that? Looks very professional.
Let's see some more N28s, maybe we could have a fly-in? :idea:
12-21-2002, 02:26 PM
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tmoth4
Believe me, I have looked at and read all of your Nieuport posts. I hope mine turns out as nicely as yours! Any input you or others have is most welcome. Just call me "Grasshopper" (If you are old enough to get the reference).
Now the questions. What covering material would you suggest for the most realistic look? Also, did you spray or brush the cammo? I read that the first 28s were brushed but the later ones were sprayed.
Jeff
Now the questions. What covering material would you suggest for the most realistic look? Also, did you spray or brush the cammo? I read that the first 28s were brushed but the later ones were sprayed.
Jeff
12-21-2002, 02:27 PM
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Thanks JD!
I'm glad you recognized Meissner's plane. I found a few pictures of the one being restored (I don't know if it's done yet) at the Garber Facility website of the Smithsonian, and his is the one they're doing. I also found a few pictures of him and his plane at "The Nieuport 28 Page" website. Lot's of original Nieuport 28 pics there.
www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/n28/n28.html
I found out that he had his upper wing fabric come off on two occasions and he landed safely. Great piloting and a great plane, I guess!
I found a good picture of the liberty poster at one of those sites and copied it into Photoshop. Then I resized it and printed it out on thin photo quality paper, cut it out, pasted it on, and painted some clearcoat on.
It would be great to have a Nieuport gathering sometime. If you're interested, and I'm sure you will be, the Air Force Museum is having an extended version of their bi-annual "Dawn Patrol Rendezvous" fly-in with full-size and R/C WW1 planes. I participated in it last time and it was fantastic. The rumor I heard is that a full-scale Vickers Vimy might show up. Check out the USAF Museum website.
Jim
I'm glad you recognized Meissner's plane. I found a few pictures of the one being restored (I don't know if it's done yet) at the Garber Facility website of the Smithsonian, and his is the one they're doing. I also found a few pictures of him and his plane at "The Nieuport 28 Page" website. Lot's of original Nieuport 28 pics there.
www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/n28/n28.html
I found out that he had his upper wing fabric come off on two occasions and he landed safely. Great piloting and a great plane, I guess!
I found a good picture of the liberty poster at one of those sites and copied it into Photoshop. Then I resized it and printed it out on thin photo quality paper, cut it out, pasted it on, and painted some clearcoat on.
It would be great to have a Nieuport gathering sometime. If you're interested, and I'm sure you will be, the Air Force Museum is having an extended version of their bi-annual "Dawn Patrol Rendezvous" fly-in with full-size and R/C WW1 planes. I participated in it last time and it was fantastic. The rumor I heard is that a full-scale Vickers Vimy might show up. Check out the USAF Museum website.
Jim
12-21-2002, 02:31 PM
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Meissner's plane
The restoration was completed a few years ago. The plane is still at the Garber Facility near my house but it is not on display. It has been packed and crated to move to the new Dulles facility that opens next December. Too bad too because at Garber I could have gotten up close and personal with it but at Dulles it will be behind the ropes. Oh well.
Jeff
Jeff
12-21-2002, 03:03 PM
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jwc,
I covered mine with Solartex and brushed on thinned latex house paint for the colors, then clearcoated the whole thing. I didn't do rib stitching.
I'm using Sig Koverall on a DR1 now and I really like it. There's more steps involved than something like Solartex or Coverite. I'm filling the weave with water-based Minwax polycrylic. It fills 90 percent in one coat, but you have to seal the wood from water before covering to keep the grain from raising up. I think the Koverall is going to have a more realistic look than the Solartex, although the "antique" colored Solartex is pretty nice stuff.
JDHammer,
How did you cover yours? Did you do rib stitching? I like that snake pattern scheme. Do you have a front view?
Jim
I covered mine with Solartex and brushed on thinned latex house paint for the colors, then clearcoated the whole thing. I didn't do rib stitching.
I'm using Sig Koverall on a DR1 now and I really like it. There's more steps involved than something like Solartex or Coverite. I'm filling the weave with water-based Minwax polycrylic. It fills 90 percent in one coat, but you have to seal the wood from water before covering to keep the grain from raising up. I think the Koverall is going to have a more realistic look than the Solartex, although the "antique" colored Solartex is pretty nice stuff.
JDHammer,
How did you cover yours? Did you do rib stitching? I like that snake pattern scheme. Do you have a front view?
Jim
12-21-2002, 04:45 PM
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I gotta go w/ Tmoth4 on the covering for a good modern finish.
However, I do love silk & dope. Yeah, Yeah, I know it costs a fortune, and weighs alot, but boy that wonderful smell. Brings back memories.
However, I do love silk & dope. Yeah, Yeah, I know it costs a fortune, and weighs alot, but boy that wonderful smell. Brings back memories.
