tomhugill

If you want realistic wood tool handles you can make them up with cocktail sticks. Given your skills it should be a piece of cake for you! On my DAK tiger I used wooden handles with the ak DAK wash. They came out quite well!

rivetcounter

Steve, my 1/6 Tiger build is merely a reasonable representation of a late Tiger it has its faults and not all is perfect, a few years earlier I also built a 1/16 Tiger using the Aber kit again this was a late model Tiger.
http://www.modelwarfare.co.uk/graphics/Rivet01/
http://www.modelwarfare.co.uk/graphics/Rivet03/
XF59 and XF60 mix, stir well then pour both bottles into a bottle say 4 times the size then in each of the original Tamiya bottles fill approximately half way with XF20 thinner shake vigorously for a few minutes then add this to the larger bottle and again shake, depending on how thick you like your paint either add more thinner or use as is this also depends on airbrush just like Dunkelgelb people will tell you there preferred method what works for one person wont for another.

Dunkelgelb for me and I have seen many different shades of original paint this is down to many factors mostly done with contamination of the original paint to me there is no true shade when I complete my schwimmwagen and Kübelwagen they will both have different shades of Dunkelgelb and on top of paint shades you will also have the effects of sun bleaching the paint obviously the older the paint the more it will have been effected by bleaching hence why I just go with whatever shade I like the look of.

If you are going to experiment use some plasticard or even cardboard as opposed to the model after all you have done an outstanding job on this Tiger not to mention the time taken to build don’t ruin things now with rash paint decisions

rivetcounter

Tom, every time I see pictures of your Tiger I have to admire your work you must be proud of your achivments

metalhead1986

Tom - I appreciate your confidence in my skills, but, even though I had considered trying to make wood handles for the tools, I decided to use them as is for now. Sometime down the road, I very probably will take a shot at it.

You Tiger looks great. That color is really nice, and probably will be somewhat close to what I am looking for. The weathering is also very nice. That is one skill I have no experience with. Sometime in the near future, I may build a 1/35 Tiger (or some tank) specifically to try my hand at weathering. For now, it will probably be painted like it cam out of the factory.

Rust chips are one thing I may try my hand at. We shall see.

Steve

metalhead1986

rivetcounter -

Your late Tiger may not be perfect, but it looks great. You went much further with the photo etch than I did. The skirts were one place I thought about going with photo etch, but I figured that running it outside or maybe battling it in future might be hazardous to the brass skirts. I know, battle damage, but I would hate to see all my hard work end up on the battlefield.

Thank you for clarifying your mixing of XF-69 and XF-60. I will see how I like the color and go from there.

Don't worry. I would never experiment with the Tiger. Here is what I am doing:



Nothing will go on the model until I am happy with the color, consistency, etc.

Steve

metalhead1986

It's been a while since I updated this thread.

Since I made my last update, I decided on the base color for the Tiger. I decided on a 50-50 mix of Tamiya XF-60 dark yellow and XF-2 flat white. It turns out this is a little lighter on the model than the sheet of styrene I used for testing, but it is very close to what I had in mind, so I am happy.

I am almost done with the base coat on the Tiger an will soon be ready to apply decals, and that is where my next questions comes in.

What product is good to use for the gloss coat needed to apply the decals to? I have heard Future is good, but that it may not play well with the Tamiya paint.

Also, do you apply this locally, where the decals will be placed, or do you spray a wider area to avoid ridges?

Lastly, what product is good for the final dull coat? I would like something that airbrushes well, as I really don't want to brush it on. I guess rattle cans would be OK, but since I have gone through the trouble of airbrushing, I figure the final matte coat should be airbrushed on, as well.

ausf

I've been using Future for about 15 years now and for the first bunch, I only used Tamiya paint, so you're fine there. I spray the whole tank, it gives a good hard coat and sets up for washes, filters, etc.

After the decal is down, I respray Future over it, and if there's even a hint of a ridge, you can float some more up to it using a brush. Future is self leveling.

For dull, you can add go straight Tamiya or add their Flat base (I think it's X-22) to Future (experiment with the ratios or research online). I typically will mist a coat of a sandy brown or dust over the whole model if I still have a gloss, but usually by the time I've hit it with washes and pigments, there's no shine left.

Marc780

Metalhead I know a lot of people use gloss paint or even that floor wax on their models. If they get the results they want that's fine, but that doesn't make sense to me, just for realism. If I were you i'd just put a gloss on the areas you want to weather and where the decals are going to go. I skip gloss entirely, I just use CA glue to hold on the decals, since two of my tanks have zimmerit and it's the only way to get them to stick on the zimmerit.

Real tanks do of course get filthy, but they are also sometimes clean especially say before an inspection or some such, and you can make them every condition in between that you'd want to make them, EXCEPT shiny. I prefer light weathering, some people like to go the worn beat up look. The point is the paint of all tanks on a battlefield in real life look dry as chalk, whatever condition they are in. Except maybe the T-80 'show tanks in Red Square in Moscow on the May Day parade none of them ever look showroom new, or shiny at all.

That's for tactical purposes of course, shiny big things draw enemy eyes, and fire. Besides which, armored vehicles are all painted in matte (flat) colors at the factory. So if you add a gloss, to me it would only be temporary anyway, for weathering purposes, and I would waste little time on putting a matte finish afterwards. A shiny surface is better for doing a wash so the paint will flow into the panel lines. I just work around that, I use arroyo washes and run it into the seams etc. then quickly wipe off the excess.

If you used Tamiya paint it's an acrylic, I think, so you need to use the same kind of paint for an overall flat or gloss.So that's what you need to use for your clear. If you use an enamel like Testors, or the rattle can matte clear from lowes or home depot, this could make your paint job peel, craze or wrinkle. And you don't want that. I don't use tamiya because it's expensive, and my local hobby store never has the colors i want anyway. It's easier, for me, to work with good old enamel like Testors, then you can coat it with any other paint you want-hardware store paint is usually enamel and it's $5 for a big old can. Even if Lowes/Home depot paint doesn't come in the color you want, or only came in a gloss, you can just paint matte clear right over it. I only use hardware store paint for the basic colors like white, black, and red primer, and matte clear, but with our tank models you do use those colors a whole lot, even if not in big spray can quantities its still cheaper-and black is black after all.

Cold Comfort

My Feedback: (1)

"Except maybe the T-80 'show tanks in Red Square in Moscow on the May Day parade none of them ever look showroom new, or shiny at all."

Funny this line made me think of the time I was in the millitary and an officer was told to clean up some of the pick up trucks for parade. Apparently he wax and polished them up, only to fine that the wax kinda voided the radar aborbing effects of the paint. This was something I heard from someone who heard it from someone else so I don't know if there was any truth behind it, but make for a funny story anyway.

mondo

Tamiya paint - all acrylic paint can crack if fast drying varnish is applied to it before it's dry. Mr Surface has the same effect on acrylic paint as it shrinks when it dries. I've pretty much stopped using varnish except directly after the base layer as it affects pigments and dust effects

mondo

You'd be surprised. There's lots of different shades and takes on black.

ausf

It has nothing to due with realism, it's just a step in the process. Not only does it give an ideal surface for decals since it they won't trap air and 'silver', but it seals the color layer so any use or washes and pigments won't bloom. A gloss surface allows for capillary action, so the dirt and grime will get into the crevices where it belongs. If you add a wash to flat paint, it dries outward from the corners, creating a hard edge that looks ridiculous.

When the desired effect is achieved, you clear coat with matte, so there's no showroom finish.

If you only gloss coat where you plan on settinga decal, you can end up with a ridge. Besides the fact that a finish coat changes how the paint reflects light, so if you do it different in one area, it'll look odd.

A good decal solution will get any decal to lay down well on zimmerit. Microsol and Microset are the best on the market.

This StuG has more Future on it than most kitchen floors, but it's not shiny:

Augustus1967

Excellent Painting Tools/Tiger/What Not Thread...

I've read through it several times, and am sure I'll be reading through it several more...

Still trying to find "My Paint"...
Currently playing with Vallejo, Tamiya and Testors... Acrillic and Enamel, as well as some Rust-Oleum and Krylon.
Quite a change from my early daze of Model Painting with Testors or Tamiya back in the "70's"...

I did pick up a jug of Future (Pledge)...
Should I be shooting Future over the Vallejo Primer Coat before laying down the Base color?
The reason I ask is, the Vallejo Primer seems Very Fradgle... Say on my Tiger 1 Early Metal Roadwheels.
It seems to want to Rub/Peel off under my thumb, even after several days drying time.

Thank You for posting this thread...

-gus

metalhead1986

Gus is right. This is a great discussion, even if my path has diverted slightly from where it was heading earlier.

I have pretty much decided to skip weathering on this tank, as I have no experience with weathering yet and don't want to give it a shot on something this expensive and that has taken me so much time to get to this point.

For the top coat, would you recommend a coat of future, even on the wheels and other parts that are not going to get decals, just for the protection? Then, use a matt varnish or the like over that to get the finish back to where I want it?

Now that I am on the topic of matte coatings, what would be a good choice to end up with a nice matte finish over the Tamiya acrylics?

I have been looking at a number of possibilities, but none of them have jumped out at me yet as the one I will be using. Each seems to have its own plusses and minuses.

When I have time later, I will post a little more on the research I have done, but I wanted to get this out there and see what other possibilities exist.

I have spent plenty on paint that I did not use, trying to get the color I wanted, and I don't really want to repeat that affair with the matte/dull coat.

And you are right Gus. The Vallejo grey primer does not bond with the metal or plastic pieces very well. From what I read, that is how it is supposed to work. One person suggested that the final protective layer should keep what you are describing from happening. That is one reason I asked about coating the entire model with Future, as is supposedly creates a very hard, protective layer on the model. I guess I will see what happens with my tank.

Thanks again,

Steve

CaptainB

Metalhead,
One of the great things about tank modelling, especially WW2 stuff is that their were so many variants of just about every tank going, that you can create a realistic looking tank without having to worry too much about historical accuracy, unless that us really your thing. Some great advice has been given here. I find that the tamiya weathering kits are really good for weathering at a basic level. Easy to apply and can be worked in and removed as you want to create a good effect. Might be worth a look for you............

Cheers

CaptB.

Marc780

Thanks for the tip Ausf, the results on yours sure look great. I just pass on what has worked for me. You do obviously know a lot more about this then I do, after all the effort we put to make our tanks actualyl run and so forth, its a shame to botch it at the last moment...i painted my King tiger, the one in my picture gallery, about 6 times till i got it how i wanted! Now i almost treat it like a treasured "antique" in a sense that "Fer Gosh sakes dont do anything to mess it up!"

Metalhead, you can't go wrong with dry brushing so long as you are patient, know its a multi step process, and know when to stop. That's where i've fallen down in the past, its better to stop before its quite where you want it, and sleep on it then examine the model objectively.
Dry brushing is simple enough, and easy, but it eats brushes so get cheap ones. If you have a multi camo color, use your light paint on the dark areas and your dark paint on the light areas. Concentrate on the edges, use as little paint as possible. There should barely be any paint at all coming off the brush as you scrub. Like next to none. Adding more later is no problem, undoing what you've done-that's a problem. For a solid colored tank, like US olive drab-add a drop or two of white, to a bottle of the OD paint, mix, add more if needed, you just want to go the next lighter, and just barely lighter shade of what is on the tank already. Now start with the edges and high spots-i suggest, work the dry brush on the road wheels and bottom parts of the hull at first, until you just begin to notice a difference-then the most important thing is: now stop right there! Put everything away and come back and look at it later. Well the Norwegians have a saying "there is always the fix for the sausage that is too long", dumb as that metaphor sounds, with weathering it is the truth.

Probably the best possible way is to spray some of your base paint on a similar surface, then practice dry brushing on that. You can achieve some startling results with just dry brushing, but the key is patience, never try to do it all in one session, know when to quit, at least for a day or two. Being in a hurry seldom yields acceptable results and doing that, might make the tank look almost ugly and you want to repaint and start over. Had that happen more then once like i said.

metalhead1986

OK, I am having no luck with the Future.

First of all, as everyone probably knows, Future has been owned by SC Johnson for a while and sold under the Pledge moniker. After reading Matt Swan's page a few times, I knew I was look for Pledge multi-surface finish floor care. Pledge has changed the label since Matt updated hi page last, but I bought the right stuff, according to the UPC code. Now, at Home Depot I saw what they claimed was Pledge multi-surface finish floor care, but the name has changed to Pledge Floor Care Multi-Surface Squirt and Mop. The label says "New look, same great product," but I do not know if it the same formula or not. The UPC codes are the same, but I was not willing to take the chance.

Now, onto my experience.

I am using scraps of styrene I painted with various colors when determining what color I wanted to paint the Tiger. I don't know what the surface is supposed to look like after I lay down a couple of wet coats. but from what I have read, it seems like the surface should be very shiny and super smooth. My tests have a sheen to them, but the surface is far from super smooth. It is smoother than the paint I painted over, but it does not look like I think it should. I have used straight Future (Pledge), and even mixed it will a little alcohol, as Matt suggests, but I get the same result.

I thought maybe I was not laying down a heavy enough coat, so I purposely went overboard today with the coat I laid down. Not only dis it turn out cloudy, but the surface is still not super smooth.

Am I right about the result I should be seeing, and if so, what am I doing wrong?

Oh yeah, I am using a medium needle in my Paasche VL and have the air pressure set to 20PSI.

Thanks again,

Steve

ausf

I have a bottle of Future that's probably ten years old, so luckily I haven't had to try out anything else yet.

I shoot it straight, never ever thinned, @ 12-14 PSI from about 10 inches. I coat it light enough that I can just see where it's landing, and usually go around twice. I'll blast more if it's the area under a decal. It's never thick enough to run, but it's always smooth since Future is self-leveling. I haven't ready Swanny's directions since I bought the bottle, so I don't know about adjustments regarding a new product.

I'm a bit concerned by you saying that your coat of paint isn't smooth. ABing color should leave an extremely smooth finish, unless you're getting pebbly from tip dry or orange peel from too thick a coat. Future or any overcoat is designed to correct a surface, just seal or change sheen.

Cloudiness in any clear coat can come from too high humidity while spraying.

Marc780

Metalhead-I know some people get good results from spraying the wax. But they never leave it like that they always have to do more weathering, usually a "wash" or "filter"-other people on different sites explain exactly what those are and what results you are supposed to get if you do it exactly right. Those people know what they are doing and they get results they desire-to me, it makes no sense to put wax on a painted surface, that is always supposed to be flat/matte. Real tank's paint looks dry and chalky never shiny...

Your paint is cloudy because of the wax. I'd remove the wax and not use it next time, at all. If you use the wax then you have to weather it again, so your tank has a finish of primer and/or paint-then wax-then MORE PAINT. Stick with paint only and don't mix types. Testors and most other model paints are enamels, Tamiya is acrylic, they dont mix. WW2 German tanks are often a multi camo scheme, so most people, just use the other colors to drybrush adjoining colors to make them blend and get that effect of a real tank that's been outside on a battlefield for a while, instead of the factory new" paint you start with before you weather it.

For German tanks and other armor, from prewar times until 1942, they are grey. From 1943, right up til early 1945, base coat is Sandgelb" (sand yellow) and the camo colors are green (I use olive drab but a slightly lighter green, just add a little bit of white to the OD) and a reddish brown (not quite rust). So, to drybrush, use some sandgelb on the camo colors. On the yellow, use the brown to drybrush (looks more natural). It is easy to overdo this so i'd say STOP way before you are finished and use a brush that barely has color-like tiny specks. And scrub lightly. When you see color, STOP.

Then for the panels, a black wash. amazon has arroyo washes and i use burnt umber. I just paint the seams and panels, let the wash fill those, then immediately wipe off all excess 9or it will leave a puddle that will dry and look out of place).

I'd just skip the wax, if it turns your paint cloudy you are going in the wrong direction. It's ok to start over! I painted my King Tiger 5 times (i know, that's ridiculous) until i got what i wanted. Sand it down, prime with red primer, start over if you have to, there's nothing wrong with that!). .

mondo

Sorry but that isn't correct.

The yellow used (apart from some used in Africa, which were not classed as yellows but almost all browns) was Dunkelgelb RAL 7028. In the old RAL chart, there is no Sandgelb colour. At one stage in late 1944 the base coat was switched to Olivgrün RAL 6003 before switching back to RAL 7028. Much of it depends where the tank was built after factory standard coats were ordered. You can tell for instance where a Panther G was built by its camouflage pattern once they began factory painting them. Prior to the Dunkelgelb order, tanks were a type of dark grey however prior to that there was a two tone grey and brown scheme. For instance tanks which fought in the Battle of France could be found with this two colour scheme

ausf

Future isn't wax. That's a misnomer like calling a refrigerator an icebox. Future is an extremely durable self-leveling acrylic clear coating. You could get similar results by using a Tamiya clear gloss coat, the difference being that you'll pay a crapload more for the Tamiya bottle and it doesn't level.

Ever calculate the per gallon cost of a 23ml bottle of paint? The ingredients aren't much more expensive than a gallon from Home Depot, it's pigment in a binder with plasticizers and flow agents, it's all about marketing. Paying 100 times more for a product that doesn't offer better results doesn't make sense to me.

All that said, there are thousands of static modelers for each RC armor modeler and over the last 15 years, I can honestly say I don't know, met or have heard of one static modeler who doesn't use Future extensively, whether it's armor, AC or figures.

metalhead1986

Since my last posting, I have been doing some more testing with clear coats.

Since there seems to be some confusion, I want make sure you know that all the testing I am doing is on scraps of styrene painted with various combinations of colors that I was testing for the color for the Tiger. I have not laid down any clear on the Tiger yet and will not until I am completely sure of what I want to do.

I have tried a number of combinations of products and may try some more before making any decisions.

I was finally able to get Future to work OK. I moved to the smallest needle on my airbrush to get the undiluted Future to flow as I think it should flow. With the medium needle and 15psi on my compressor, the flow of the Future was too much for me. The smaller needle and 15psi sprays the future really nicely. Two coats built up a nice layer of the Future that was nice and smooth. I am sure I could get it even smoother if I practice my technique more.

I also bout a can of the Mr. Top Coat gloss to try out. It is not cheap, but I have enough sunk in to the Tiger already. What's another $17. I sprayed this as I sprayed the Future, with two not-too-heavy coats going down on another sheet of the painted styrene. I let this dry for a dew days, and man is this product smooth. The resulting finish was so smooth the Microset just pooled in a big droplet on the surface, while it was able to be spread onto the Future into the shape of the test decal. This is really nice stuff.

Next, I took some scrap decals and applied them to the surfaces of my test pieces, using the Microscale products I had just purchased. The decals laid down nicely on both surfaces. The Mr. Top Coat being so smooth, the decal slipped and slid around really easily. I had to position it and just let it sit until the liquid evaporated. I was worried it would not adhere well to the surface, but when dry, the decal adhered really nicely.

For decals, either surface would work very nicely,

On the Future test piece, I applied one more coat to seal the decal and let it dry for a few days (family obligations pushed off the matte finish testing.

For the matte finish, I have both Vallejo Matte Varnish and Testor's Dullcote.

For the Future test pieces, I used the Vallejo Matte Varnish. Being and acrylic product, I know it will not be as tough as an enamel or lacquer product, but going over the Future, I figured this would not be an issue. I sprayed three light coats over the future, with one day in between each coat to dry (not much time to spray in one go right now). The Vallejo varnish needs to be thinned a little to spray nicely though my airbrush, but the results are very nice. It is not as matte as the original flat Tamiya paint finish, but it knocks the sheen right off the Future.

As for the Dullcote, I am working on testing it right now. I laid down one coat over the Mr. Top Coat coated test piece and also over another Future coated test piece. The first thing I noticed was that the Dullcote comes out very heavy from the can. I will certainly need to adjust my technique if I go this route. I have one coat on the pieces so far and will check on them later today to see if I want to lay down a second coat.

So far, the Vallejo Matte Varnish seems hard to beat, so the Dullcote has its work cut out for it.

I ma still unsure of what gloss coat to use, as I am more than a little afraid to screw up the work done laying down the base coat. The Mr. Top Coat is less scary than the Future, but I am sure that a little more practice with the Future and I will be able to control it well.

I am also on the fence about gloss coating the entire tank, instead of just the areas where decals will be placed. I know it will protect the paint, but we go back to my being afraid to screw up the paint. I am leaning towards doing the whole tank, so the paint is protected. I just need to be more sure of myself.

That's where I am now. More to come as the week progresses (I hope).

Steve

mondo

I didn't really get on with the airbrushed vallejo varnish, I always got that white effect from it to do with too much humidity but the spray can version is fantastic. Just very hard to get hold of.

metalhead1986

Oh yeah

One thing I am sure of is that this tank will not get any weathering. That is another battle I have been having with myself. Once again, I am afraid to royally screw up the work I have already done.

I have been thinking about just gloss coating the tank, applying the decals, and then get a 1/35th or 1/48th scale model to mess around with weathering on, but I am really leaning towards leaving the weathering for my next project, or maybe going back and doing it on my Leo, since I never top coated the base coat.

A factory new finish has never bothered me, so that is the way I am 90% sure I will be going with the Tiger.

Steve

metalhead1986

Mondo,

Living in Florida, humidity is usually a way of life, but right now, the humidity is very low (for us), and I did not have any problems with the Vallejo varnish turning white. I did make sure to lay down multiple light coats, as I have read that helps to prevent the white effect.

If I could find rattle cans of the stuff, there would be no contest where I would go with the matte coat.

Steve