mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

My girlfriend is Buddhist I have friends who are Hindu and non of them wear swastikas or have swastika tattoos. What I am saying is that when the average person in this country see a swastika and it is a sign of HATE. And when someone is in a group that is hated by that sign a light will go off their head and say "HEY this guy/gal could possible hate me so I should probably go the opposite direction". Thats what I am saying in the original post, I'm not trying to say that one kind of prejudice is right and another is wrong. But like it or not there are still hate groups out there, and if someone was into R/C and was into a hate group what do you think they would most likely want to model????? I know the history of the swastika and unfortunately the Nazi's have ruined it, like it or not. And the swastika we are referring to in this forum is the one of the NAZI's, so stop trying to romanticize it, the swastika on a ME-109 or that P-47 on this thread have nothing to do with Buddhism. And I realize that not everyone who wears a cross is religious, but my point is all symbols are not ALL good, Would you welcome a devil worshiper in your house, do you respect people who choose to molest little kids???? Some groups don't deserve respect and this is what I am talking about.

And no I don't have narrow views. I don't care if there was more hate in WWII in this country for the Japanese than the Germans. The Germans were trying to annihilate an entire race of people and take over the entire world because they felt they were superior. The Japanese self moto was taking back asia for the asians, granted the tactics were horrible with lots of unnecessary death, but that to me is the lesser evil. This country still had a long way to go itself back in the 40's just ask the Tuskegee airmen what kind of welcome they got when they returned home? I look at what I know about history and make my own conclusions.

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

boy this is turning into a history lesson for all of us. I bet if you ask any person of Chinese heritage whos family went thru the war....The rising sun means just about the same thing as teh swastika. WW2 was a war with rascist s overtones as we are seeing here. That goes for both the Americans and the Asians. Symbols will always be with us and will have different meanings thru out time. The christian cross sure was not a symbol of christianity up until hundreds of yrs later. I bet if we could travel back in time with the cross around our necks, we would probably offend Peter Paul and Mary. Now as a African American myself who has never been to Africa......so you can just say I have a "better American tan" than most. I try not to pass judgement, I want to know how and why....although I might get pissed or laugh my Butt off, I wont shy away from ignorance besides there is probably a lesson somewhere in there. This exchange of ideas has been good for all of us and should make all of our modeling projects just that more interesting for allof us. I hear and see those Civil War re-enactments and I think they are neat but just think that I could not truelly be an reenactor for obvious reasons because that was history. But do you think people truelly undersatnd that...thats the beauty of what we do...we get to showcase our love and our talents and teach at the same time. I like what Spitfire Mk1 does , models his planes after a pilot who has made the ultimate sacrifice.

IronCross

Ram-bro
I beg to differ with you... You could be a "reenactor " .....
Many free blacks fought valently for the South... The first year or two of the civil war had nothing to do with slavery... It was over the North's taxation of the South and state soveranty. It was only in the second year of the war, Lincoln was up for reelection, the war was not going well, that the slavery issure was added to justify the war and help get him reelected... Once agian history has been twisted to suit the times... The Confederate flag which went to war for some noble ideas has been turned into what is now supposedly a racially devisive symbol...

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

I guess I kinda knew that but I wanted to make a point.....you ruined it for me But your point is well made .

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

You mean the North right? About 180,000 African Americans fought as union solders (buffalo solders). However there were a few fighting for the South (not sure why??), however those few are all but lost in history now with no specific records... The confederate flag issue is a whole other topic, that I shall not comment on.

t_burley

My Feedback: (59)

well call me racist if you will, but it wont stop me from putting a Swastika on
a German aircraft! how stupid is that? I am German! My grand parents are from Germany,
but because I put a Swastika on my 109, has NOTHING to do with me being a racist,
nor condoning hatred!?!?!?! makes no sense. it is History, it happened.

and the P47 in the German scheme, very kewl indead. if you knew about that pilot, and
how that plane came to being painted that way, you would also know that that plane
never took an American life in those colors. also, if that is so bad, what about all
those German, or Japanese planes, that the Allies captured, and painted with stars and
bars! would that not offend you then, to see a BF109 painted in an American captured
scheme?

this PC stuff is getting a little outta hand. I understand that you are African American
Mugenkidd, but quit throwing out the race card here. I hope that someday you dont
see my German planes up close, as I guess we would never be able to meet because
you would turn away? I dont look at the "color" barrier here. some are white, black,
tan whatever, that makes no difference to me. but this is about being Politically correct
for scale documentation here, not racism lines in the sand.

if everyone held off and hated the Swastika, and the Japanese rising sun, and never
modeled them, there would be alot of GREAT aircraft that would never get modeled.
but because we choose to model these planes, and these where our enemy during the
war and took down American and allied lives, they are so bad? What about all the
German, and Japanese pilots that lost theres? you thing they are still feeling good about
that, maybe we should quit doing American planes now as well, with German kill signs
and Japaneses kills as well, they may be offended

IronCross

No, I mean the South... At the time the South had a thriving economy with cotton and all... The North wasn't doing as well and wanted to tax the Southern States... The whole South was up in arms against it including the free blacks of which there were quite a few.... Seems like 10 thousand or so but it has been a long time since I reasearched this for a college assignment... History and Hollywood never quite seem to tell the whole story...

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

I DIDN"T through out the race card. AM I the only one the realizes what symbols are about?????? Symbols represent something, usual and ideal, my point was that symbols, especially the swastic, are still used TODAY by HATE GROUPS. I'm not making this up!!!!! If I see a "beware of dog" sign on a fence I don't enter, and thats what i see today.

Stop using these lame cliches, what I am saying is that as someone who is on the "hate list" of a group that still uses the swastica for racially negative purposes, I think twice when I see that symbol. As someone who is not hated by those people you may not see it as personally as me or someone who us Jewish.....Stating facts about a particular group that hates specific races is NOT THROUGHING OUT THE RACE CARD, seems like every time some like me brings up race were THROGHING OUT THE RACE CARD, this simply isn't true. I'm just saying is that that symbol throughs up a "red card" for me when I see it, and i have a right not to like a particular plane as much as that persion has a right to model it. And No I do not see a problem with US markings on axis planes.


I like to here your definition of free??? [sm=lol.gif]

IronCross

mugenkidd
So I gather you don't go to church either since the cross is used by the clan as a terror symbol (usually burning in a front yard) to terrorize others...

Katchmarek

My Feedback: (29)

Hmmm...someone please enlighten me here. I always thought that the term "buffalo soldier" came about more or less after the civil war, during the great migrations westward and the Indian wars? I have never heard the black soldiers in the civil war referred to in this way...but then the civil war has never been my period of interest.

I do remember that a small number of blacks fought for the south...however, I don't know if they were free blacks, or freed blacks...the difference being the plantation owners offered them their freedom if they fought, and it was usually when the plantation was close to being over run by the north. There were if I recall, over 250,000 free blacks who fought for the north during the war. They weren't treated much better then slaves from what I remember...poor equipment, often not paid and when they were it was much less than a white soldier of the same rank...and to top it off, all of their officers were white...kinda put's the kicker in right there I reckon. Slavery was without a doubt the 2nd most vile crime against humanity comitted by this country. Ya know, this whole thead is really startingto get me riled up...nothing anyone has written, just makes me think of how great this country is despite all of it's flaws...then I think of how truly great it could be if we didn't have morons running it and countless more morons following them like calves to the slaughter. Most people can't handle the truth...why...because they've never heard it before. Truth is the most dangerous weapon on earth, that is why our politicians do everything in their power to keep it from us. Racism, anti-semitism, and hatred of all kinds is what really fuels out political system. When was the lastt time you can remember a political campaign wihtout mudslinging? Heck, even atthe local level that's about all it is anymore. It's not about who is going to do the most for the people they are elected to represent, it's about who is the better liar or who has the most money...or both! What happened to honesty, decency and hard work? How about loyalty? Man...I'm steaming from the ears right now...How stupid do our politicians really think we are? Well as stupid as we let them! We put on this great humanitariam act, the USA saving the world yet again from another bad guy. What does it get us, more countries that hate us, less money in our pockets...sure we can rebuild foreign countries, feed their hungry, give aid to their sick...but we can't do those things right here in our own country for our own people...WHY NOT??? I cols go on and on and on here...but I won't. I don't think I'm going to post any more to this thread...I'm just getting too .... arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Wake up America!
Happy Holidays,
Rob

hmmm...does anyone find this smiley offensive? It looks an awful lot to me like a characature of a Japanese soldier during WWII?

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

IronCross,
So I guess you wear a white cloak with a white hood covering your head and don't think anyone should be offended because its part of history?

And no I don't wear burning crosses


The Buffalo soldier name was first given to the 9th and 10th Cavalry and 24th and 25th infantry after the civil war in 1866 by Native Americans.

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

come on guys....back onpoint. Dont forget why and what this thread is about. Information is what I was passing on here. Nothing more and nothing less. If you look at the short time this thread has been on , we have had over 800 visitors. That is alot of eyes on target, alot of information that is being passed on , good or bad. Wether we like it or not, we are all Americans , we all share the same history and teh same future...lets get back on point. Oh and to those of you whao arent Americans, we are all humans and we alll share in the history of the world.

Katchmarek

My Feedback: (29)

Yo Guys, I'm not the moderator, but I think it's time to step back and take a deep breath...chill out a little bit. We all know who has what opinions by now, and there is no need to get this racial thing into an uproar! I don't think Mugenkidd was playing the race card...nor ws anyone else...but what I do see is the chance that things could get nasty here real fast. There is nothing wrong with this topic so long as we act like intelligent, and civil human beings. We all should choose our words selectively...it's easy enough to be taken out of context when skirting a touchy subject as is...so please let's all just think before we speak/type.
Maybe you think I'm an A**H**e for putting my 2 cents in here...but then, ask me if I care?
Play nice kids,
Rob

Katchmarek

My Feedback: (29)

Hey Rambro...looks like great minds think alike! We definitely have to get together sometime! You sound like my kinda folk fer sure!
Happy Holidays,
Rob

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

Hey , I can be somebodies folk....somewhere. Hey , Ia m all about building and flying. The more obscure the better. If there is a story behind it....GOLD MINE. If I meet the guy who flew the plane....orgasmic. If he tells me some history or about some mission.....comatose. Know what i mean?

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

I am reminded of the Buddhist symbols, blown up by Taliban people who didn't want them to remain a reminder. Apparently they found the statues offensive, and could not fathom why someone would want them preserved for historical purposes.

I seem to recall reading that the "Confederate" flag we see from time to time is not an actual battle flag, but one of less importance to the Confederacy. I believe that story said that the Union did not want symbols of the Confederacy to remain.

I believe Confederate soldiers were permitted to keep their weapons. I believe the WWII War Crimes trials acquitted and released some men who wore the Swastika (Otto Skorzeny comes to mind) and never even accused the bulk of the pilots. Not all who wore the Swastika were evil, and the bravery of many German pilots cannot be diminished by the butchery of other Nazis. Nor can scorn for their symbol make them criminals.

A symbol is just a symbol. History, however, is the subject of much political debate. I personally would not want historical records to be altered by blacking out Swastikas, or eliminating images from pictures and motion pictures (thinking of Stalin, here), or by destroying certain flags. I'm mostly Norwegian, and I wish there were more historical artifacts left of the Vikings - despite the horror stories.

I admire those who have the skills to create an historically correct scale model airplane. May they never be hindered in their efforts by the politically correct.

Dave Olson

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

You forgot the easily offended, they are the worst. I don't want any part of this thread however, I got enough of the towns people after me! lol!

Dion

Warbird Tom

I could'nt have said it better!!!!! This PC thing has gone way too far in my opinion. But Ive noticed in the last couple of years the pendulum is started swinging the other way. Many are speaking out against this crap publicly on radio and tv. Whew!! there I feel better now.

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Geezzzzzz--------------- and I thought all my life's lessons learned had me cured in part of racism and gosh my current major is Social Sciences..I still am a racist then to folks as your self: since I will put that "unmentionable" on the vertical fin of my ME/Bf-109 I have in the planning stages..;just as I keenly put my new decal sheet of German kill markings I received, with 25 German crosses in a matrix which are for scale purposes only,if you can follow me. The point to all this is authenticity for the vast majority of us here at RCU and else where.
RAM

HalH

My Feedback: (12)

This has been hashed out long before in one of the magazines that removed the symbol from a model picture before it was published. If one is modeling a scale a/c and wishes to model it correctly they will include ALL the markings shown on the picture or documentation submitted or suffer a loss of points.

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

try and make me sound crazy if you wish , but I never called anyone a racist. NEVER ... but as the original poster said, its hard to find a kit or arf manufacture that puts the swastika on German planes, this is most likely do to others sharing some of the same feelings I do, in one of my first post I even said I have flying buddies with them on their planes, I have never told anyone to take them off. My entire point was that no matter how high and mighty or equally excepting you think you are everyone else, is NOT. I'm sure most of you were outraged to see Janet Jackson's Boob on the Super Bowl half time that was all the rage... like it was the worse thing in the world, yet you'll sit here and cry over the swastika like no one has the right to be offended, well then don't be offended by flag burning, gay marriage, porn, short skirts, sexual education, free condoms, cleavage, masturbation, atheism, paganism, bling-bling, pimps, gambling, or anything else that is part of the so called "moral decline" in this country. Point is everyone is offened by something, there no need to chasitise someone who dislikes swastikas.

stuk_at_work

My Feedback: (111)

Two words to all. Cool it!

You may argue the point whether a certain kit maker was being politically correct in removing swastika's, rising suns, Indian head nose art, etc ... You can speculate on whether those details were removed for some other reason. You can even extend your arguments to include whether certain symbols are offensive (to some) when used in a non-scale ways. You may not resort to name calling (racist)! Please see the words of warning posted above the edit box you create your posts in:
It is obvious that many of you have very strong views on the subject matter in this thread. Keep in mind that just because it is your opinion doesn't make it right for all, just as other opinions that differ from yours doesn't make yours wrong.

Last warning guys.

mugenkidd

My Feedback: (94)

Thanks Stu, some of us maybe taking this too seriously so in the words of Arnold,



I'm going to go work on some planes, but first I think I'll Dance

ok, by myself. [sm=lol.gif]

Katchmarek

My Feedback: (29)

Mugenkidd, Ya know, the more I read your posts, the more I like you! It's obvious that you have done a bit of research, and you stick to your guns. Even though we disagree on some things I don't hold it against you in any way, shape or form. It makes for interesting conversation/posting.
However... you stated "You can't expect a Jewish person to ever feel comfotable with it." pertaining to the swastika...I know Jews who collect Nazi militaria? I know one Jwish guy in Moscow who has perhaps the biggest collection I've ever seen! I guess it's like someone wearing a cross!
Hey, it's been fun debating this subject with you and the rest of the gang...but I have to get back to building this P-51!
Take care and Happy Holidays!
Rob

PS...Mugenkidd...I like your girl...does she have a sister???

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

It's unreal how this thread exploded. The emotions it has brought out, the information; I think it's one of the best on RCU in a long time. I, for one, appreciate the moderators keeping it on track and allowing the discourse and not shutting it down

Every government has been the bad guy at some point in recent history, both to their own and foreign peoples. I've heard talk about atrocities on all sides, really, except ours; let's never forget that we (USA) are the only military power to use nuclear weapons against another, so far. I won't get into whether that was the right or wrong thing to do at the time, but you can bet that that act has colored a lot of the world's opinion of our government to this day, and I'm sure that from the other side of the fence it looks as atrocious as Hitler's acts against Judaism or Stalin's purges of his own people (which, by the way, is a larger number than what Hitler did). I do have to admire the restraint that they(nukes) haven't been used since, although we've been too close a couple of times.

What saddens me about ALL of this is that over the ages, noone has seemed to learn that all these ideologies must learn to co-exist. We are all alone together on this great big rock spinning through the cosmos, and all this squabbling over who owns the oil, or who can dominate who, or which God is the TRUE one, just diverts our focus from what it should be, which is the long-term survival of the human race.