Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

Hey the P.C. world has apparently hit the modeling world. I recently acquired a TA-154 Moskito and with all models I like to gather my documentation for our local sscale contests. Well I found documentation of this specific aircraft with the swastika and I found the plastic model of the same aircraft without the swastika. Whats the world coming to. Is someone trying to change history or what? Has anyone else come across this discrepancy? Or maybe I am just blowing smoke. I am gonna enjoy explaining this little fact to the scale judges. Anyone else come across anything closs to this.[:'(]

ho2zoo

My Feedback: (5)

I have heard that in Europe they are not allowed to put a swastika on a model, even if the real one had it. Well, it was a symbol of evil, so I guess I can see why some might be offended. But if we can all just treat it as just a marking on a plane, it may someday lose it's power.

Netherwing

My Feedback: (7)

I ran into that problem when I got the GP Stuka. They had everything except the swastikas for the rudder. So now I'm trying to make a stencil so I can spray paint it on when I finish the plane. Yes, it has become associated with evil, but it was once a symbol of good luck and also used to represent the flux of the Universe. Oh well, such are the ways of the world.

Later,

Mike

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Well if it a scale model it gets the correct and COMPLETE set of markings. (unless you reside in Germany)It's inevitable I'm going to do plans or kit built Me/BF-109F-6/U 'Galland Special' and it will have those unmentionables on the vertical fin,thus making it an authentic scale model with the appropriate markings.

Right after I read this thread ,I pulled my intended documentation for my next project 'a Hasegawa kit,' off the self and sure enough :deleted unmentionables from the Messerschmidt's vertical fin- You know I never had noticed.. When I was building lots of plastic war birds in the Mid sixties the unmentionable was included in the illustration of the completed model on the kit box cover and of course included on the decal sheet..This politically correct thing is a bunch of bull![:@] But again it is LAW IN Germany,so I was recently told;I wonder if that law in the great nation of Germany is true or not..

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Woops.............

Harpoon

The swastika is not allowed in Germany so that’s why it’s omitted from plastic kits that are marketed in Germany. I live in Norway and we do not have this problem, nor in any other of the Scandinavian countries. I think the symbol is allowed in all European countries (except Germany) when it is used to represent an origin correctly. Like on original photos or on models which represent an origin.

I once did buy a Tamiya kit in Germany where the swastika was blacked out on the decals. So go ahead put it on where it belongs. Putting a swastika on the tailfin on a RC plane representing a German aircraft from WWII doesn’t mean you are a nazi or sympathise with the ideology.

Katchmarek

My Feedback: (29)

This is TOTAL BULL SHIRT History is history, it should not be changed! I don't know about the rest of the world, but I believe this to hold true for most places...the main force behind this PC crap is the Simon Weisenthal Center which I believe is based in California. I remember only a few short years ago when one could buy and sell WWII collectibles on eBan...err uh, eBay without any problems. Now with the intervention of the SWC, it is illegal to sell anything (except coins, stamps and books) that relate to Nazi Germany. You can not use the words Nazi, SS, RZM and a host of others in listings. I also find it very strange, that in Germany it is supposedly illegal to sell anyting with a swastika on it, or that is related to Nazi Germany in any way...but why is that there are militaria shops throughout Germany that openly sell these collectibles? I can go online to any number of them, and I know people who personally travel to Germany and visit them in person. What it all boils down to is business and governments caving into a small faction who just so happens to control vast amounts of capital and more importantly, the media! This in itself I find a disgrace.

Why is Germany punished for this 60 years after the fact? Okay, supposedly 6 million or so jews were exterminated...yes it was a terrible thing. But think about the countless millions who were exterminated by the US government...the Soviet government, the Japanese government and the list goes on. The US govt. authorized the murder of about 12 million or more native Americans...was that not a holocaust too? The US govt. scanctioned the slavery and murder of how many countless millions of Africans during the years of slavery...was that not a holocaust too? The US govt. sanctioned the incinerations of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of German civilians in the fire bombings of Dresden and the like...was that not a holocaust too? The US govt. sanctiond the killing of millions of Japanese civilians with the fire bombings of Tokyo and the atomic bombs droped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki...were these not holocausts as well?

Okay you guy's got me on a roll here...the US probably has committed more crimes against humanity than any other nation ever. But we were the victors. What if all these peoples mentioned previously, rallied together...would they remove the stars and bars from models and ban the sale of US militaria? Of course not.

If I've stepped on anyones toes here or upset anyone...too bad. I am entitled to my opinions just as you are. But I would suggest you check out your history. What is taught in American schools as history, is for the most part pure, unadulterated BS.

Happy Holidays,
Rob

flyerdarren

I'm looking for a nice swastika stencil for a 40 sized BF- 109. There weren't any in the box. They must have forgot to put them in there at the factory.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Really! maybe if you were American you would understand a little better. Sometimes the right thing isn't always pretty or popular.

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

Lets keep this post on track or it will be closed down. Thanks Dave, forum moderator.

Ozelot

It is interesting how different the point of view is on the swastika around the world. I went on a business trip to Bangalore, India recently. I saw a proud company sign on a wall saying "Swastika Engineering", complete with swastika and all... The symbol had no negative vibes at all there.

Jens

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

It's like most any symbol used by an unpopular or reviled ideology-- it comes to represent that ideology whether intended or not. The swastika has been used for over 3000 years in some form or another, usually to represent the sun, power, strength, or good luck. Even the Native Americans used the symbol, and it has also been used by the American military before the Nazis. The American 45th Division had it on their shoulder flash, and the Finnish air force had it on their airplanes up until WWII. All these uses predate the Nazi Party acceptance of it as their official symbol, so although now anytime it is seen, the immediate image is of fascism and WWII atrocities, it had many other, less heinous, connotations before the late 1930's.

A similar situation exists with the Confederate Battle Flag, which conjures up many negative feelings in America today.

I think both are a part of history, and we need to remember our history in order to take a lesson from it and not to repeat the errors of the past; however, we should not dwell on the negative connotations or take personally the modern display of these symbols, unless the behavior of the past is present with them. This is what we need to suppress.

TankHunter

My Feedback: (1)

i am only 16 and i still agree with the fact that history will not change wether or not we use or dont use the swastica. however before the swastica became a symbol for the nazis it was a religos cross and due to the evis associated(sorry for my spelling) whith this symbol people have wanted to forget what the nazis did by disassociating the swastica from modern culture and it is wrong. personally we should use the swastica as it was usedon wwii aircraft because that is all it is; HISTORY. those are my feelings on the subject

PS i study wwii as a second hobby to modeling so i do know

TANK

Thunderbolt47

My Feedback: (8)

I read one time that the orginal meaning of the Swastika is 4 Ls linked together meaning Love, Life, Liberty and Longevity, or something to that effect.

Kelly

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

boy, I go away for a few hrs and whew........I guess I am not totally surprised by the responses. I hope as I saw in a couple of posts that someone else saw this and learned from it. To the history buffs out there as we all know to the victors go the spoils and that includes our version of what happened in the war and what the war was about. The younger generation are the ones who suffer the most because when someone or group has an agenda nothing but confusion and strife follow. History is history and Ijust hope we dont forget thatwe can all learn from it. It shouldn't be buried or manipulated or the sacrifices of those who came b4 us was for nothing. Put the swastika back where it was .....in history. My planes and documentation will reflect what "was" and not what is....TODAY. Keep an open mind and above all, we are all historians on this site and with our love of flying, airplanes and a period of time in Human history we have a story to be told one way or another.

t_burley

My Feedback: (59)

Tony I agree here as well. History is History!
for example, attached is the pick of the Swastika on the tail of my
PCM 109. note that it is "oversprayed" . My docs show this, as it
was added in the field. I have had people ask why I painted over
the Swastika, and thought that I had done that myself to help
"hide" the indignaties(sp?) of what is stood for?

go figure

Katchmarek

My Feedback: (29)

Lot's of good facts stated here. I'm pleased to see some of the younger contributors are actually studying history on their own and not swallowing what is force fed them in the school systems! Two other things I find interesting...#1 after my initial post, there was only one attempt to flame me, and #2 a "moderator" instantly jumped in. I don't know which of these is more bothersome to me? I hope that I will be allowed to respond without being seen as an instigator and I also hope that this thread wil not be shut down because of my response. Actually I will respond in reverse order to these items. First, I totaly understand the job of the forum moderator, and his responsibility to keep things under control. I hope that he doesn't see one expressing factual statements as looking to start trouble.

As for the attempt to flame me, my response is simple. I am an American, I served in the US Army 1st Cav. Div. I couldn't agree more, most times the right thing to do isn't prettier or the most popular. However your statement only serves to verify what I have said much more than the insult you attempted to throw at me.

I was/am merely trying to point out a major flaw in the portrayal of modern history in many countries/societies/individuals. From knowing the truth about history and studying to understand why and how these events occurred, this is what will enlighten our and future generations to assure that these same blunders are not repeated. If they are covered up or whitewashed, then our children and our childrens children will of course be condemned to repeat these mistakes.

I invite any of you to pick up a HS history book, and go to the chapters that deal with WWII. In a nutshell, it will tell you how the US saved the world from Nazi Germany. It will only mention the Soviet Union by saying that the US gave them lot's of lend lease equipment, and probably a sentence or two about our mistrust of Stalin. If you believe this, then fine...you have just proven your ignorance. The truth of the matter is that if Germany hadn't been at war with the Soviet Union, the US undoubtedly would never have come to the aid of Great Britain. The landings of D-Day were not cakewalks, and came very close to failing. Had Germany not had more than half of it's military strength on the eastern front, D-Day would have most likely been a masacre. The truth is that the Soviet Union bore the brunt of the battle against Nazi Germany. Over 26 million Russians died in the conflict. Now I am not saying that the Russians defeated Germany alone...nor that they could have? My point is simply to try and point out the lies and propaganda that is taught to our children. And unless something happens to change this, future generations will suffer the same mistakes that those who came before did. Talk about crimes against humanity!
Rob

TankHunter

My Feedback: (1)

pickup i agree with u the us was not the only one fighting against Germany CANADA and other lesser ****ries also faught and if it wasnt for hitler being an very silly man he would have wone the war. HOWEVER this defeat also helped to streignthen democracy for the world and ensure a safe place for all people. ****DO NOT TAKE THIS IN THE WRONG WAY**** hitler was a genous not in the way he did things and NOT IN WHAT HE DID howeever he was a very smart man had he used his mind for good the world i beleve would devolop meore quickly again my sight on this


TANK

16 and proud to fly

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Hello-
I respectfully find exception to your hypothesis regarding Great Britain's fate; we the United States of America were offering lend lease,in several forms during the summer and fall of 1940,including skilled pilots;who,of course,found there way to England either from the U.S.A.A.C. or by way of joining the Royal Canadian Air force(or core..) and the fact remains THEY the British Royal Air Force stood alone and won a decisive victory against Goering's then invincible Luftwaffe. Its funny how history records:England's so called "lost generation,at the period of prelude to WWII,who's so called "lost generation,"indeed comprised the core of the Royal Air Force, which under sound leadership; defeating the prerequisite to 'Operation Sea Lion," that of total air supremacy.
I was taught to respect all peoples, by my late father and during his life time he shared much with me in an un biased way with regards to the second World War and it's after math. Funny thing I've been in contact with a banker from Germany and it seems (now)they are a democracy,I ask you all to think what you would referee to us now,as we move forward in time leaving 911 in it's wake and a 'new' nationalism in our conscience as a people- Turn on the television and listen to all the OUR WAY or you are a -------! scary is it not? In closing I mostly agree w ith all said here and will indeed add the correct and authentic markings to my sleek Luftwaffe WWII war bird.

Thunderbolt47

My Feedback: (8)

I don't think Hitler was a genius, If he was so smart he wouldn't have made all the mistakes that caused his defeat. Also, as bad a WW2 was, we would just be doing the moon landings now. War breeds nessity, and alot of technology comes from that.

Kelly

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Hi All

I have always had trouble with the two words, Politically and Correct being used together. They seem to compromise the word "Correct".

This is why everybody wants to live in the US. Freedom! If you want to put the swastika on your model you can, if it offends you, don't put it on your model.

In 1915 millions of my people were murdered in the mid east by turks. You are welcome to build a Turkish model with all the authentic markings and I won't be offended. However, I wouldn't build one. Its personal thing not to be pushed down other peoples throats, or make other people pay for it.

Anyway, back to my toys.

Steve

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

Pickupsticks, there is a reason the world speaks english and not Russian or German. We can all find a reason why the war was won or lost. It doesnt come down to weapons, tactics or politics. Its funny that the Gemans probaly started the war with the most advanced weapons and lost the war wit most advanced weapons. The reasons the Russians lost so many people during the war was because of their political process...Judge Stalin. By him purging his forces and trusting Hitler many people had to die. Now if Hitler wouldnt have been so incompent and greedy the world MIGHT be speaking German. His generals knew that they could not fight a 2 front war. Face it, the war was lost before it started. Americas industrial strength, money, stubborness and independence ws teh bullet in the head for the 3rd reich. So what did I learn from all my research in and on WW2? Well it started b4 WW1, the cowardice , ignorance and pride of the European nations cost themjust that many more lives. You dont have to win the battles to win the war. Let the Generals fight the war, allow the politicians to setup the next one. and the #1 lesson I learned is that luck has more to do with winning battles and wars than all the guns in the world. Pickupsticks, I enjoy your opinion and our exchange of ideas. I just hope everyone will do their own research and studying . Just because you read it in a book or posted on a web site doesnt make it true or a fact, be smart be vigilant and be true to our Art Form........

mbuck515

I'm with SCALECRAFT If you want to do a plane with certain markings on it then go ahead and do so. Thats What i did with my P-47 CAPTURED COLOR SCHEME, I get alot of questions on it, some people love it do to the fact that its somthing different, others hate it cause they said there should never be those kinds if markings on a P-47, Like i tell everyone who has commented on it "weather you love or hate it you'll never forget it.", anyway just my 2 cents

Happy Holidays
Mitch

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

mbucks, yours is the perfect example. People come up and engage you in conversation and in the process walk away learning something about themselves and hopefully history. I wonder since all this talk is on the swastika can anyone tell me have they had the same problem with the Japanese Rising sun insignia and their documentation?

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

Pickupsticks, my comment was made to stop the flaming that was in the works. The discussion on this subject is constructive and informative and it is not my intent to stop it unless it get's into name calling and or a flame war. Thanks for your understanding, Dave.