perttime

PM... ?
Finding this probably takes quite a bit of digging if you don't already know it. Somebody better let the secret out soon.
(there's some language pairs where Google translation struggles bad )

-

1) photo in post 4560 should show what sort of an engine it has and give a pretty good clue about nationality.

2) this is another project that was canceled when the war ended. Only one prototype was built. It was clearly not going to be produced but was test flown anyway to see how well the design had worked out.

3) test flights showed promise but the quality of the glues used in the construction was a serious concern.

4) The only prototype quite likely escaped scrapping because much of the construction is wood.

5) Now it is sitting in a museum next to a Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6: ( pic in post [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10431706]4564[/link] )

6) at the same time they were designing another one: same engine, smaller, lighter, fewer guns. That one never got beyond the drawing board.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

PM is "Private Message". I just told the Raven where to find an English translation of the aircraft's history. If you want to have this question answered quickly, just point out the national markings on all the aircraft behind the Me-109. That will put them on the trail fast enough. Thanks; Ernie P.

perttime

I know. But... if you found more pictures, you might find it is relevant to the aircraft in question

The markings on the 109 too

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

I sent you a PM. A quick internet search on the name I provided will bring up several sites with photos. Thanks; Ernie P.

kwik

It is a VL Pyörremyrsky. ("whirlwind")

http://translate.google.no/translate...rremyrsky.html

perttime

Yes, VL Pyörremyrsky.


http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...nct_entry=true

I'd translate it as "Tornado", because a whirlwind can be pretty small too.

The Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VL_Py%C3%B6rremyrsky
The museum where it is: http://www.airforcemuseum.fi/main_exhibition (they have some pretty unique things there, check the "virtual exhibitions")
Some simulator enthusist did a Blenheim hugging trip, and took pics too: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/.../blenheim2001/

[hr]Edit:
Ernie P. asked about the glue problems. An earlier model, the "Myrsky" (Storm) which went into production, used similar materials and the glue that was used was a serious issue in harsh conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VL_Myrsky
"The wooden construction proved problematic in this theatre, not enduring wet weather or cold well. The war time Lukko glue, manufactured from ersatz materials, which was used on glueing the wood parts, did not stand rain, frost and humidity, and the glue seams disintegrated"
[hr]

Now it is your turn, kwik.

kwik

I pass. Dont think I am good at that.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Once I figured out what name to use for the search, a lot of stuff came up. Wikipedia had another view of the same museum, and the below site had quite a bit of data and some neat photos. A great question, perttime!!! And I had never heard about the glue problem in this context. What amazed me was how many Italian prototype aircraft had front ends that looked very similiar to the Me-109; and a few that had the same style landing gear as the Whirlwind. Thanks; Ernie P.


VL Pyörremyrsky ("Hurricane") is a Finnish development based on Bf-109. Main differences are: wider undercarriage, larger wings and fuselage made out of aluminium, steel piping and wood. Pyörremyrsky's (PM) speed was about the same as Bf-109G6's, but it was more agile and had lighter controls. PM used the same German DB 605 engine and same propeller as Bf-109.
First prototype was ordered 26.11.1942 and the first flight was on 21.11.1945 instead of the intended May 1944. Because of changed military and political situation and unavailability of DB 605 engines, production was cancelled.
http://www.nbl.fi/~nbl2673/ma00.html

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Well, I think people have heard enough of my questions for a while. How about it, Raven? You got a good one handy? Or perttime can ask again or choose another player. I guess it's perttime's option. Thanks; Ernie P.

perttime

Anybody who has an interesting subject or good angle on anything, please go ahead.

(I've asked a few recently. It is more interesting when more people ask questions.)

[hr]I am sure having a DB engine can pretty far determine how the nose of an aircraft looks like. As I've understood, the engine is the main similarity between Pyörremyrsky and Bf 109. The use of wood in the construction inevitably makes the rest of the engineering different. Otherwise it is just "conventional configuration" and trying not to "re-invent the wheel".

The Raven

What am I:

1. I was used in approximately 9 aircraft, 7 of those applications were prototypes or testbeds!
2. I was derived from an earlier type, this led to two other designs which more closely represent my final design.

perttime

I think it is a British engine design...

The Raven

Think away then

perttime

Napier Sabre

""""
Prior to the Sabre, Napier had been working on large aero engines for some time. Their most famous was the Lion ...
...
Napier followed the Lion with two new H-block designs: the H-16 (Rapier) and the H-24 (Dagger).
...
... Although the company continued with the opposed 'H' layout of the Dagger the new design positioned the cylinder blocks horizontally and was to use sleeve valves. All of the accessories were grouped accessibly above and below the cylinder blocks, rather than being at the front and rear of the engine as in most contemporary designs.

The first Sabre engines were ready for testing in January 1938

Applications - widely deployed
Hawker Tempest
Hawker Typhoon

Applications - limited production and prototypes
Blackburn Firebrand, only in 21 early production aircraft
Fairey Battle, testbed
Folland Fo.108, testbed
Hawker Fury, prototype
Martin-Baker MB 3, prototype
Napier-Heston Racer, prototype
Vickers Warwick, prototype
""""

The Raven

You got it! That's pretty good for just two clues.

You realise that now makes it your turn again

perttime

I thought it might be an engine. Something rang a bell and I decided to look at the details of the engine used in one of my all time favorite aircraft: the Napier-Heston Racer. I couldn't help myself
[hr]
I remember a story with an aircraft in it...

1) A WW2 head of state used one of these as his personal transport.
2) Some eyewitnesses thought that, on the way to a birthday visit, the aircraft of this head of state almost collided with a smoke stack in the fog. This was probably not true as the experienced pilot knew well where he was and what he was doing.

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Iron Annie? Hitler's personal Ju-52? Thanks; Ernie P.

The Raven

Not the [link=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,758458,00.html]Hessian crash 1937[/link] as that was in preparation for a wedding.

perttime

Nope.

I remember a story with an aircraft in it...

1) A WW2 head of state used one of these as his personal transport.
2) Some eyewitnesses thought that, on the way to a birthday visit, the aircraft of this head of state almost collided with a smoke stack in the fog. This was probably not true as the experienced pilot knew well where he was and what he was doing.

3) On landing, during that same flight, one part of the aircraft caught fire. Apparently, that sometimes happened with the type when landing a bit hot on short runways.
4) The head of state may have had some war-related request, but the host played the discussion so that the request was never made.

perttime

I remember a story with an aircraft in it...

1) A WW2 head of state used one of these as his personal transport.
2) Some eyewitnesses thought that, on the way to a birthday visit, the aircraft of this head of state almost collided with a smoke stack in the fog. This was probably not true as the experienced pilot knew well where he was and what he was doing.

3) On landing, during that same flight, one part of the aircraft caught fire. Apparently, that sometimes happened with the type when landing a bit hot on short runways.
4) The head of state may have had some war-related request, but the host played the discussion so that the request was never made.

5) During this flight, part of the way, the aircraft was escorted by fighters built in an "enemy" nation.
6) The aircraft had 4 engines.

SimonCraig1

Don't know about some of the clues but is it the B-24 "Commando" which ferried Winston Churchill around?

http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures..._Commando.html

perttime

Nope, not Commando or Churchill

I remember a story with an aircraft in it...

1) A WW2 head of state used one of these as his personal transport.
2) Some eyewitnesses thought that, on the way to a birthday visit, the aircraft of this head of state almost collided with a smoke stack in the fog. This was probably not true as the experienced pilot knew well where he was and what he was doing.

3) On landing, during that same flight, one part of the aircraft caught fire. Apparently, that sometimes happened with the type when landing a bit hot on short runways.
4) The head of state may have had some war-related request, but the host played the discussion so that the request was never made.

5) During this flight, part of the way, the aircraft was escorted by fighters built in an "enemy" nation.
6) The aircraft had 4 engines.

7) When WW2 began, a Danish registered example of the type was confiscated and used by an airline and then Air Force in the country where it was seized.

perttime

I remember a story with an aircraft in it...

1) A WW2 head of state used one of these as his personal transport.
2) Some eyewitnesses thought that, on the way to a birthday visit, the aircraft of this head of state almost collided with a smoke stack in the fog. This was probably not true as the experienced pilot knew well where he was and what he was doing.

3) On landing, during that same flight, one part of the aircraft caught fire. Apparently, that sometimes happened with the type when landing a bit hot on short runways.
4) The head of state may have had some war-related request, but the host played the discussion so that the request was never made.

5) During this flight, part of the way, the aircraft was escorted by fighters built in an "enemy" nation.
6) The aircraft had 4 engines.

7) When WW2 began, a Danish registered example of the type was confiscated and used by an airline and then Air Force in the country where it was seized.

8) It was originally designed as an airliner but a military version was also developed before the war broke out.

Shrky

Winston Churchill and the Douglas DC-4/C-54 Skymaster?

Scott

Ernie P.

My Feedback: (3)

Just to get it out of the way... I can't make all of the clues fit, but I keep thinking about the DC-4 or C-54. Roosevelt used the plane to fly to Tehran, to meet with Churchill and Stalin; among other destinations. But I've never heard the story about the smokestack. Thanks; Ernie P.


The designation DC-4 was first used by Douglas Aircraft Company when developing a large, four-engined type to complement its very successful DC-3, already in widespread operation. It was intended to fulfill United Airlines' requirement for a long-range passenger airliner. Retrospectively this aircraft became known as the DC-4E (E for experimental). It emerged as a 42-passenger airliner with a fuselage of unusually wide cross-section for its day and a triple fin tail unit, similar to that later used by Lockheed on its Constellation. The triple fin was abandoned on subsequent models, replaced by the more common single fin.

The DC-4 had a notable innovation in that its tricycle landing gear allowed it to incorporate a fuselage of constant cross-section for most of its length. This lent itself to easy stretching into the later DC-6 and DC-7. A total of 1,163 C-54/R5Ds were built for the United States military services between 1942 and January 1946.

History: When it was decided that the President of the United States, Franklin D. Roosevelt, should have a personal airplane to transport him to meetings around the world, the aircraft of choice was the US Army Air Corps’ (USAAC) C-54A Skymaster. Dubbed ‘The Sacred Cow’, this was the plane that took the president to Tehran, Casablanca, Hawaii and other less exotic spots in the USA.

The C-54 was the military derivative of the Douglas DC-4, a four-engine long range airliner with a three-man crew and accommodations for up to 49 passengers or 26 troops. Originally designed to a specification from United Airlines, the DC-4 had a maximum speed of 274 mph and a range of 3900 miles. The first 61 civilian orders were followed by a further buy for 71 from the USAAC though, in the end, most ended up in Army service.

To meet the military’s more stringent needs, the DC-4 was given a cargo door, stronger floor, cargo boom hoist and larger wing tanks. First flight of the military C-54 occurred on 26 March 1942. During the war years, 1242 C-54s were delivered with a wide variety of modifications. A few of the major ones were the C-54A, the original, fully militarized model capable of lifting 50 soldiers or 32,500 pounds of cargo; the JC-54D, which was modified for missile nose cone recovery; the C-54E, with larger Pratt & Whitney engines, bigger fuel tanks for longer range and a specially designed cabin for quick conversion between passenger and cargo roles; the C-54M, which was a C-54E stripped out to serve as a coal-carrier during the Berlin Airlift; the EC-54U, a post-war modification as an electronic counter-measures platform; and at least 14 sub-variants built for the US Navy originally called the R5D. There were numerous other variants which performed countless other roles, from VIP transport to multi-engine training.

The C-54 offered sterling service for both the USAF and the US Navy after the war, and was not fully retired until the late 1960’s. Ex-military Skymasters became popular as cargo transports and fire bombers, and many are still in active use around the world in these roles. A lucky few have been acquired by appreciative warbird groups in the USA.
Nicknames: The Sacred Cow (FDR's personal transport); Rescuemaster (US Air Force's SC-54D air-sea rescue variant.)