Getting Started in Warbird racing
01-08-2016, 11:02 AM
#1
Getting Started in Warbird racing
Here is an info article you can used to get started into warbird racing
others may chime in on specifically what they have used as well.
Many are using custom built racers but this list is for the commercially available items to get started
Warbird Set Ups for Racing
This will be a general idea of what you may consider for racing a specific class in the Warbird Race to be held at the Nats 2016.
This is not an all inclusive list, but from my viewpoint of what will get you to where you need to be and be competitive. Remember you must keep your engine of choice to the max size allowed based on the square inches of the models wing. Please see the rules on this. Here is the Wing Chart restrictions to make it easier on you:
2 Stroke Maximum 4 Stroke Maximum Wing Area Minimum
Cubic Inches Cubic Inches Square Inches
0-.50 0-.89 400
.51-.60 .90-.99 440
.61-.70 1.00-1.09 480
.71-.80 1.10-1.19 515
.81-.95 1.20-1.29 550
.96-1.05 1.30-1.39 565
1.06-1.10 1.40-1.49 580
1.11-1.15 1.50-1.59 595
1.19-1.20 1.60-1.69 610
1.21-1.30 1.70-1.75 630
1.31-1.40 1.76-1.85 650
So let’s start with the Gold Class as it is perhaps the hardest to get right on based on Stock equipment alone:
The engine of choice is the YS115WS
Nitro is usually 45%-60% with 18-20% oil
Prop is APC 13.5x13.5 or a 14x14
I started with these items because from here you need to find a suitable airframe that will hold up to the stress this power set up will distribute.
Airborne models makes a Gold Class Ready Spitfire 40 http://www.airborne-models.com/html/...?ProductID=185
This plane is already beefed up to handle what we do. It has a larger wing are that falls in to the 550Sq In area so it can have up to a 1.29 four stroke or a .95 two stroke in it. Some guys are taking that ARF and adding their own mods to increase structural integrity even more, like glassing center section of wing. Adding 10-24 nylon wing bolt set up instead of the metal screws supplied in the kit, due to vibration, others add the Hyde soft mount and reinforce the engine firewall area, and some go as far as to tape or monkote the control surface gaps.
I have race the World Models 40 size Mustangs as well in the Gold Class. I used the same power set up as described above. I had to do more mods using these planes as they were never designed to be under the stress of this type of racing speeds. We usually sheet the Horizontal tail, increase firewall strength with glass and wood stock, Wick all control horn areas and recover there, glass center section of wing, add 16 oz fuel tank, close all hinge gaps with tape or covering.
You will want to keep your model to a 40 size in this class utilizing these power options. Some have tried 60 size models and they just cant get around the course as efficient, but can be used as you are also allowed a bigger engine set up.
There are some 2 strokes to consider as well, but remember to stay within the size limits according to the rules. A tuned pipe is a must if you go the 2 stroke route. You could also go down in wing size and run a smaller engine set up. There is a guy in California who kits a Tsunami in two sizes. The smaller one is a 400 sq inch wing set up to use the YS70, or up to 50 2 stroke with a pipe, while the bigger kit is designed around the YS115 and meets the Wing/ Eng size rules accordingly for that engine size in a four stroke or even a 80 size two stroke. The Email for these planes is: [email protected]
I suggest for the Gold Class you visit Airborne Models http://airborne-models.com/
or World Models http://www.theworldmodels.us/store/
and select one of their 40 size warbirds and equip them with the set ups stated above. All planes in the Gold class utilize retractable landing gear variations.
Now on to the Silver Class. I do not race this class but have seen enough of the racers and their set ups to efficiently describe what is needed for this class.
Most in this class are also using the World Models Planes, the Airborne Spitfire set up, or 40 size warbird planes from Tower Hobbies or Horizon Hobby, even some VQ models and other china nock off versions. The engine of choice in the Silver class is still the YS115WS, or even the older YS110 and YS91 versions. The nitro content for four strokes doesn’t haven’t to be as high in this class, most will run 30% Heli fuel or maybe a bit higher if their chosen airframe is too draggy.
The 2 strokes will work well in this class as well but will require a tuned pipe to pull the draggy airframes around. I have seen these engines used - Thunder Tiger 60, Evo 61, OS 75, even Saito and Magnum four strokes. Just make sure your engine falls within the limits based on your wings square inches. You will want to prop your plane for your engines spec suggestion. Almost all planes in this class also utilize retractable landing gear.
In the Bronze Class
This is perhaps the broadest of all classes as far as airframe, engine and prop choices go. Most of these planes do not utilize retracts and are fitted with fixed wired landing gear. A popular model often used is the T34 from Airborne Models.
http://www.airborne-models.com/html/...p?ProductID=46
In this class the smaller four strokes like the YS63 and YS70 are used. Two stroke engine choices are more popular in this class than any and range from .40-.95 sizes depending on your wing size. Most in this class do not use a tuned pipe. T34, 30-40 size warbirds, even 60 size warbirds are often used. Engines are YS, TT, OS, Magnum, Saito, Evo. Once again prop your engine to the manufacturers specifications.
As far as radio, receiver, servos and batteries, it will be required that all classes MUST use a 2.4 system Tx and Rx. Servos must have a minimum of 57 oz torque per control surface. Batteries should be a minimum of 700 MAH for mini servos and 1100 MAH for the standard size servos. I find on my set ups running mini High Torque servos I use around 80 MAH a flight.
Here is my personal commercially available set up and suggestion that I have used successfully and is proven and works very well for their classes:
Gold- Airborne Models Spitfire 40, YS115WS, 60% nitro, APC 13.5x13.5
TX is a JR XG14 on DMSS, servos are JR3421 on all controls, Rx is a JR RG712bx, and my Battery is a LIFE 6.6 V Zippy 700 MAH or a Hobbico Life 6.6 1100 MAH.
Silver- World Models Dago Red, YS115Ws, 30% -45% nitro, APC 13x13.5 prop, Same TX and Servo and Battery set up.
Bronze- Tower Hobbies Strega MK2 P51, http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXEMWT&P=ML
YS70, APC 11x10, same Tx, servos and batteries as above. This ARF is very vulnerable to failure with anything more powerful than what I use, unless many mods are implemented to the Airframe.
others may chime in on specifically what they have used as well.
Many are using custom built racers but this list is for the commercially available items to get started
Warbird Set Ups for Racing
This will be a general idea of what you may consider for racing a specific class in the Warbird Race to be held at the Nats 2016.
This is not an all inclusive list, but from my viewpoint of what will get you to where you need to be and be competitive. Remember you must keep your engine of choice to the max size allowed based on the square inches of the models wing. Please see the rules on this. Here is the Wing Chart restrictions to make it easier on you:
2 Stroke Maximum 4 Stroke Maximum Wing Area Minimum
Cubic Inches Cubic Inches Square Inches
0-.50 0-.89 400
.51-.60 .90-.99 440
.61-.70 1.00-1.09 480
.71-.80 1.10-1.19 515
.81-.95 1.20-1.29 550
.96-1.05 1.30-1.39 565
1.06-1.10 1.40-1.49 580
1.11-1.15 1.50-1.59 595
1.19-1.20 1.60-1.69 610
1.21-1.30 1.70-1.75 630
1.31-1.40 1.76-1.85 650
So let’s start with the Gold Class as it is perhaps the hardest to get right on based on Stock equipment alone:
The engine of choice is the YS115WS
Nitro is usually 45%-60% with 18-20% oil
Prop is APC 13.5x13.5 or a 14x14
I started with these items because from here you need to find a suitable airframe that will hold up to the stress this power set up will distribute.
Airborne models makes a Gold Class Ready Spitfire 40 http://www.airborne-models.com/html/...?ProductID=185
This plane is already beefed up to handle what we do. It has a larger wing are that falls in to the 550Sq In area so it can have up to a 1.29 four stroke or a .95 two stroke in it. Some guys are taking that ARF and adding their own mods to increase structural integrity even more, like glassing center section of wing. Adding 10-24 nylon wing bolt set up instead of the metal screws supplied in the kit, due to vibration, others add the Hyde soft mount and reinforce the engine firewall area, and some go as far as to tape or monkote the control surface gaps.
I have race the World Models 40 size Mustangs as well in the Gold Class. I used the same power set up as described above. I had to do more mods using these planes as they were never designed to be under the stress of this type of racing speeds. We usually sheet the Horizontal tail, increase firewall strength with glass and wood stock, Wick all control horn areas and recover there, glass center section of wing, add 16 oz fuel tank, close all hinge gaps with tape or covering.
You will want to keep your model to a 40 size in this class utilizing these power options. Some have tried 60 size models and they just cant get around the course as efficient, but can be used as you are also allowed a bigger engine set up.
There are some 2 strokes to consider as well, but remember to stay within the size limits according to the rules. A tuned pipe is a must if you go the 2 stroke route. You could also go down in wing size and run a smaller engine set up. There is a guy in California who kits a Tsunami in two sizes. The smaller one is a 400 sq inch wing set up to use the YS70, or up to 50 2 stroke with a pipe, while the bigger kit is designed around the YS115 and meets the Wing/ Eng size rules accordingly for that engine size in a four stroke or even a 80 size two stroke. The Email for these planes is: [email protected]
I suggest for the Gold Class you visit Airborne Models http://airborne-models.com/
or World Models http://www.theworldmodels.us/store/
and select one of their 40 size warbirds and equip them with the set ups stated above. All planes in the Gold class utilize retractable landing gear variations.
Now on to the Silver Class. I do not race this class but have seen enough of the racers and their set ups to efficiently describe what is needed for this class.
Most in this class are also using the World Models Planes, the Airborne Spitfire set up, or 40 size warbird planes from Tower Hobbies or Horizon Hobby, even some VQ models and other china nock off versions. The engine of choice in the Silver class is still the YS115WS, or even the older YS110 and YS91 versions. The nitro content for four strokes doesn’t haven’t to be as high in this class, most will run 30% Heli fuel or maybe a bit higher if their chosen airframe is too draggy.
The 2 strokes will work well in this class as well but will require a tuned pipe to pull the draggy airframes around. I have seen these engines used - Thunder Tiger 60, Evo 61, OS 75, even Saito and Magnum four strokes. Just make sure your engine falls within the limits based on your wings square inches. You will want to prop your plane for your engines spec suggestion. Almost all planes in this class also utilize retractable landing gear.
In the Bronze Class
This is perhaps the broadest of all classes as far as airframe, engine and prop choices go. Most of these planes do not utilize retracts and are fitted with fixed wired landing gear. A popular model often used is the T34 from Airborne Models.
http://www.airborne-models.com/html/...p?ProductID=46
In this class the smaller four strokes like the YS63 and YS70 are used. Two stroke engine choices are more popular in this class than any and range from .40-.95 sizes depending on your wing size. Most in this class do not use a tuned pipe. T34, 30-40 size warbirds, even 60 size warbirds are often used. Engines are YS, TT, OS, Magnum, Saito, Evo. Once again prop your engine to the manufacturers specifications.
As far as radio, receiver, servos and batteries, it will be required that all classes MUST use a 2.4 system Tx and Rx. Servos must have a minimum of 57 oz torque per control surface. Batteries should be a minimum of 700 MAH for mini servos and 1100 MAH for the standard size servos. I find on my set ups running mini High Torque servos I use around 80 MAH a flight.
Here is my personal commercially available set up and suggestion that I have used successfully and is proven and works very well for their classes:
Gold- Airborne Models Spitfire 40, YS115WS, 60% nitro, APC 13.5x13.5
TX is a JR XG14 on DMSS, servos are JR3421 on all controls, Rx is a JR RG712bx, and my Battery is a LIFE 6.6 V Zippy 700 MAH or a Hobbico Life 6.6 1100 MAH.
Silver- World Models Dago Red, YS115Ws, 30% -45% nitro, APC 13x13.5 prop, Same TX and Servo and Battery set up.
Bronze- Tower Hobbies Strega MK2 P51, http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXEMWT&P=ML
YS70, APC 11x10, same Tx, servos and batteries as above. This ARF is very vulnerable to failure with anything more powerful than what I use, unless many mods are implemented to the Airframe.
01-08-2016, 01:36 PM
#2
to help you gauge the speeds you will need:
Bronze Break Out is 2:30, 10 laps so you want to run around 15 second laps
Silver Break Out is 2:00, 10 laps so you want to run around 12 second laps
Gold Beak out is 1:30, 10 laps so you want to run around 9 second laps
Remember the course is 700'
pilots stand closer to pylon#1 than they do #2
Actual distance will be around 200' to #1 and 500' down to #2
Bronze Break Out is 2:30, 10 laps so you want to run around 15 second laps
Silver Break Out is 2:00, 10 laps so you want to run around 12 second laps
Gold Beak out is 1:30, 10 laps so you want to run around 9 second laps
Remember the course is 700'
pilots stand closer to pylon#1 than they do #2
Actual distance will be around 200' to #1 and 500' down to #2
01-10-2016, 10:01 PM
#3
My Feedback: (66)
I will add that for the Silver class any of the world models 46 size warbirds will break out with a YS115 on 20% nitro.
For Gold I have ran the WM mustang and with 60% nitro on the 13.5x13.5 APC prop it runs right at the 1:25-1:26 range and can easily run 1:30. I have ran a best of 1:25.6 and Chip Hyde has ran right at 1:25.4 with his.
I know a lot of people have the larger 60 size top flight kits and kits from Hanger Nine and with the DLE 20s these are perfect for the Bronze class. Fly these same planes with the YS 115WS and some 30-35% nitro and they will run Silver speeds.
For the WM spitfire I have run as fast as 1:19 with it at Sacramento. The WM spitfire I think is the perfect plane as it can fly in all three classes. I have one for bronze, silver and gold.
Side not I have been flying planes since 1979 and never thought about competing but I started this warbird racing three years ago and man I have to tell you it is the most fun I have had flying rc planes. Also You just cant beat the sound of the YS with open header on some 20-60% nitro.
If you are kinda bored with your normal routing of flying you should really give this a try. If you have any question hit me up here on the forums or at my email.
For Gold I have ran the WM mustang and with 60% nitro on the 13.5x13.5 APC prop it runs right at the 1:25-1:26 range and can easily run 1:30. I have ran a best of 1:25.6 and Chip Hyde has ran right at 1:25.4 with his.
I know a lot of people have the larger 60 size top flight kits and kits from Hanger Nine and with the DLE 20s these are perfect for the Bronze class. Fly these same planes with the YS 115WS and some 30-35% nitro and they will run Silver speeds.
For the WM spitfire I have run as fast as 1:19 with it at Sacramento. The WM spitfire I think is the perfect plane as it can fly in all three classes. I have one for bronze, silver and gold.
Side not I have been flying planes since 1979 and never thought about competing but I started this warbird racing three years ago and man I have to tell you it is the most fun I have had flying rc planes. Also You just cant beat the sound of the YS with open header on some 20-60% nitro.
If you are kinda bored with your normal routing of flying you should really give this a try. If you have any question hit me up here on the forums or at my email.
01-12-2016, 11:06 AM
#4
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Plano, TX
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Guys, thank you for this type of info. this is just the kind of information we guys looking at this class for the NATS needs. If I understand from the info. on rules that if you want to run in two classes you must have two planes. Once a plane is flown in one class it is not eligible to be used in another class. Is my understanding correct?
Thanks,
Jerry
Thanks,
Jerry
01-12-2016, 11:16 AM
#6
Also to everyone,
We have no secrets we are keeping. Our goal here is to spread warbird racing across the nation. Sure we would love to be crowned the Nats Champ - but our bigger goal is to get as many involved and successful as possible. Any questions you have, we will share, whether it is our set ups, course strategy, support equipment - you name it we will share it. We will even loan you a prop at the race. These stock set ups are great set ups for all classes, so it boils down to flying a consistent course with a good caller, nailing the start and flying thru traffic. We are here to see this event succeed first and foremost. That means we want you to be successful and want to do this more than once a year at the Nats.
We have no secrets we are keeping. Our goal here is to spread warbird racing across the nation. Sure we would love to be crowned the Nats Champ - but our bigger goal is to get as many involved and successful as possible. Any questions you have, we will share, whether it is our set ups, course strategy, support equipment - you name it we will share it. We will even loan you a prop at the race. These stock set ups are great set ups for all classes, so it boils down to flying a consistent course with a good caller, nailing the start and flying thru traffic. We are here to see this event succeed first and foremost. That means we want you to be successful and want to do this more than once a year at the Nats.
01-12-2016, 01:37 PM
#7
My Feedback: (66)
I think if you switch from your primary plane to your back up, I do think its up to the CD to allow the primary plane to race again if the problem was fixed. Like say a aileron servo quits and switch to the back up for the day you might be able to switch back the next day or keep the primary as the back up now. Is this how it works marty?
I will share all secrets just ask me.
I will share all secrets just ask me.
01-12-2016, 02:17 PM
#9
Jeff,
I had to edit this post as I gave incorrect info- sorry....
If you have damage, such as an aileron servo or what ever , Yes you may switch to your back up then you can repair that, have it verified, and get right back into the next heat of your choice.
I had to edit this post as I gave incorrect info- sorry....
If you have damage, such as an aileron servo or what ever , Yes you may switch to your back up then you can repair that, have it verified, and get right back into the next heat of your choice.
Last edited by MFLOOD3800; 01-14-2016 at 07:30 PM.
01-14-2016, 08:47 AM
#11
I think if you switch from your primary plane to your back up, I do think its up to the CD to allow the primary plane to race again if the problem was fixed. Like say a aileron servo quits and switch to the back up for the day you might be able to switch back the next day or keep the primary as the back up now. Is this how it works marty?
I will share all secrets just ask me.
I will share all secrets just ask me.
The above is only correct for SAM warbird racing. If your primary becomes damaged during a two day race on day one you may set aside, repair after the days racing and then reinstate once it has been safety checked for the second day. It looks like this is an area where the NATs racing will vary from SAM somewhat. The intent with the SAM rules was to allow a pilot to continue racing with a second plane available for a two day event. For one day events with only 4 rounds once a second plane has been used the first plane is null and void of any further racing.
Marty,
Nice work on starting this thread. Your love for all types of racing really shows and your dedication to this type of racing and it's growth are admirable. Your effort to merge RCpro and SAM via the Champions race this past year was a huge undertaking. I guess now that rules are being changed I have to throw out a personal pat on the back that I was the only ever Gold Champion to win at the 1:25 time.
I will not be able to make the Nats with family and work responsibilities, but I would like to invite anyone in the West to attend one of the SAM races being held this year. We usually draw the very best pilots in Warbird racing and the venue is fantastic. Whether racing Gold, Silver, or Bronze you will see and race against very competitive pilots. The rules are a little different, but racing is racing and this would be a great way to get some pre-Nats practice in.
..... Ready...... TURN
01-14-2016, 01:28 PM
#13
In regards to the question of the back up plane and primary plane, as far as switching back and forth -I WAS WRONG
In reviewing the rules the wording adapted from the Sams rules and implemented into the Nats rules, was left "as is", hence allowing the CD to make the call, as Jeff stated, To allow a primary plane taken out for what ever reason, switching to the back up, and then allowing that original primary plane to be reused.
The wording allows this switching with CD approval.
Sorry for the confusion
In reviewing the rules the wording adapted from the Sams rules and implemented into the Nats rules, was left "as is", hence allowing the CD to make the call, as Jeff stated, To allow a primary plane taken out for what ever reason, switching to the back up, and then allowing that original primary plane to be reused.
The wording allows this switching with CD approval.
Sorry for the confusion
01-14-2016, 07:32 PM
#14
All of you planning on attending the Nats race I encourage you to join the NMPRA organization. This group serves as the Special Interest Group for Pylon Racing. They are here for us so we need to be there for them. Joining is not a requirement, but is beneficial to those of us who love pylon racing.
Go to nmpra.org and sign up.
Go to nmpra.org and sign up.
01-15-2016, 09:05 PM
#15
I got my Tsunami kit from [email protected]
Started building it tonight. If you are after a kit that supplies you with the full plans, laser cut ribs and main parts (other than stick stock, sheeting etc) these will work great for you. Tim also sent me plans for the rest of his kits so I could review them and approve them for the Nats racing. All of his kits are legal and available. Tsunami 515" and 400" size kits, Czheck Mate, Rare Bear, KI 61. He has a few good kits for you to choose from. Email him at the email address in this post and ask him for more information. These are perfect kits for those builders out there that have some experience building already.
Started building it tonight. If you are after a kit that supplies you with the full plans, laser cut ribs and main parts (other than stick stock, sheeting etc) these will work great for you. Tim also sent me plans for the rest of his kits so I could review them and approve them for the Nats racing. All of his kits are legal and available. Tsunami 515" and 400" size kits, Czheck Mate, Rare Bear, KI 61. He has a few good kits for you to choose from. Email him at the email address in this post and ask him for more information. These are perfect kits for those builders out there that have some experience building already.
01-26-2016, 06:33 PM
#19
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Plano, TX
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Does anyone have any experience with the electric retracts that come with the Airborne Models 40 Spitfire? They seem a little light to me, just reaching out to see what people who have this plane experience is.
Jerry
Jerry
01-27-2016, 01:01 AM
#20
My Feedback: (66)
They are strong enough. I have had 5 of these spitfires. Out of the 5 I have had three issues with them. All different problems. Set screws stripped on one, Y harness didnt work and one just didnt work at all. All of these were easy fixes.
All my news ones I plan to ditch the stock Y harness, retap all the set screws and clearance the wood rib just above the motor on the wing. A few of the models the wood rib hit the motor on the gear and caused it to bind and then shut off. Again all easy fixes.
All my news ones I plan to ditch the stock Y harness, retap all the set screws and clearance the wood rib just above the motor on the wing. A few of the models the wood rib hit the motor on the gear and caused it to bind and then shut off. Again all easy fixes.
01-27-2016, 07:08 AM
#21
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Thanks for the info. The retracts on the plane I got do not clear the bottom wing surface with the wire or wheel in the retract position. I was thinking of taking my Dremel and taking off material under the retract mount but there is very little clearance left like you say under the retract motor or in the fiberglass wheel well. I've uncovered the wings as I'm changing the wing color. The retract strut covers are unless as shipped plus they would be hanging out over 1/8" below the lower wing surface. I may just go nuts and sheet the open bay areas with balsa cover with .75 oz cloth and glass the whole wing. I'm not real keen on a open bay covered wing as we had several AB Skyraiders in Club 40 racing have the covering come loose on the leading edge and blow the wing apart and lose an airplane and that was at 80 mph.
Jerry
Jerry
01-27-2016, 05:23 PM
#23
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Plano, TX
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Again thanks for the comments. The airplane is built like a tank, very strong. At $225.00 with a set of retracts installed a very good deal. The covering on this plane as it came out of the box is the best I've ever seen and I've been doing this a long, long time. I've got a few other mod's I'm thinking about, not needed I'm sure, but hey that's what makes this stuff fun.
Jerry
Jerry
01-28-2016, 11:54 AM
#24
My Feedback: (66)
On the WM covering you do need to go over it with a iron and then seal up the edges. These planes don't take much elevator, so use book suggestions. When setting it up neutral is with a little down elevator. If you set it level it will climb a lot on you when flying. When you go to take off you need to hold up elevator and once off the ground slowly relax the elevator.
