Tiger 60 and Flaperons
05-03-2005, 07:37 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Just wanted to get Sport flyers opinions on the use of flaperons on my Tiger 60. I have just installed and set up the radio for them, and wanted to hear about anyone's experiences with them. My main interest is 2 fold: 1 - slow down landing speed for my somewhat shorter field. 2 - Training for an eventual warbird.
Since it is going to be some time before I can get a dozer to let me clean up the north side of my field, I am left with about 200' of landing runway, if I could set it down at the threshold. I have managed to wack down most of the brush and grapevine at the north side which helps some, but you still need to fly it in with some clearance (It is a very unpleasant experience to try to untangle the landing gear from the grapevine upon inadvertently landing in it). If landing north to south, the ground slopes somewhat to the south, which requires more room to bleed off speed when you land. South to north is a lot less of a problem, obviously.
I am currently running an APC 13x4 prop, but once I hit 3/4 throttle, I can tell that this is underpropped with the SuperTigre 75 on it.
Since it is going to be some time before I can get a dozer to let me clean up the north side of my field, I am left with about 200' of landing runway, if I could set it down at the threshold. I have managed to wack down most of the brush and grapevine at the north side which helps some, but you still need to fly it in with some clearance (It is a very unpleasant experience to try to untangle the landing gear from the grapevine upon inadvertently landing in it). If landing north to south, the ground slopes somewhat to the south, which requires more room to bleed off speed when you land. South to north is a lot less of a problem, obviously.
I am currently running an APC 13x4 prop, but once I hit 3/4 throttle, I can tell that this is underpropped with the SuperTigre 75 on it.
05-03-2005, 08:01 AM
#2
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Bingo,
I feel for you on the short runway. Our runway is the same length, but we at least have the clearances on both ends knocked back to where it's not a problem for slowing down on approach. If you have your Tiger rigged for flaperons go for it. I have flaperons on my Sig Something Extra and they are fun to play with. And as you said in your post, it's good training for war birds.
Another thing you can do to slow down is install a piece of fuel tubing on your wheels to act as a brake. Put a small piece of fuel tubing between the wheel collar and the wheel. Adjusting the wheel collar will adjust how much braking pressure is against the wheel. You don't want it too tight, just enough to add some pressure. When you land this will help slow you plane down when to power has been cut.
I feel for you on the short runway. Our runway is the same length, but we at least have the clearances on both ends knocked back to where it's not a problem for slowing down on approach. If you have your Tiger rigged for flaperons go for it. I have flaperons on my Sig Something Extra and they are fun to play with. And as you said in your post, it's good training for war birds.
Another thing you can do to slow down is install a piece of fuel tubing on your wheels to act as a brake. Put a small piece of fuel tubing between the wheel collar and the wheel. Adjusting the wheel collar will adjust how much braking pressure is against the wheel. You don't want it too tight, just enough to add some pressure. When you land this will help slow you plane down when to power has been cut.
05-03-2005, 09:01 AM
#3
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
I had some bad experiences with flapperons, but that was on a heavy Extra 300
Something with a light wing loading like a 4* should be ok. But over all, I'd prefer to use separate flaps and ailerons.
Given your situation, I'd say go for it
Something with a light wing loading like a 4* should be ok. But over all, I'd prefer to use separate flaps and ailerons.
Given your situation, I'd say go for it
05-03-2005, 09:49 AM
#4
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RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Agree with Min. Flapperons are a mixed bag -- they let you fly at a lower speed, but they can introduce adverse yaw & they really aren't terrific as speed brakes -- the plane balloons severly if they are deployed at excessive speed. This forces you to make a very slow approach (including turns, while compensating for the adverse yaw with the rudder), or a long flat straight approach to allow the speed to bleed away before flapperon deployment.
True flaps (or spoilers) will let you make a steep short approach, with a short flare & roll-out.
True flaps (or spoilers) will let you make a steep short approach, with a short flare & roll-out.
05-03-2005, 10:07 AM
#5
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
ORIGINAL: britbrat
True flaps (or spoilers) will let you make a steep short approach, with a short flare & roll-out.
True flaps (or spoilers) will let you make a steep short approach, with a short flare & roll-out.
Going to disagree with you a bit. Flaps and spoilers are 2 different things. Flaps extend down from the back of a wing, they increase the lift that the wing produces which let's you fly at a slower speed. Spoilers pop up on top of the wing, they are used to disrupt the flow of air across the wing which disrupts lift. A common use of spoilers is to kill all lift from a wing while a plane (especially airliners) taxis, which lets them taxi at a higher speed without worrying about lift from the wing lifting the plane.
In this example, the plane ballooning when you put the flaperons down is exactly what they are supposed to do. When you deploy the flaps they produce more lift, therefore lifting the plane. You don't want to extend the flaps at a high speed because you run the risk of tearing them off. They are designed for use at slower speeds. They do take some practice to use correctly. Make some approaches at about a mistake high and deploy your flaperons. Watch what the plane does and practice throttle management to fly your plane at an awfully slow speed!!!
Spoilers are used by RC glider pilots a lot when they are trying to land on a given spot (or inside a circle). They raise the spoilers which kills the lift produced by the wing and the plane basically stops flying and falls to the ground. Of course they do this from just a couple of inch's height.
Hope this helps.
05-03-2005, 08:46 PM
#6
Thread Starter
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Minn, I understand how the flaperons can possibly mess me up in a slow turn especially. I intend to try these out "way up there" to give myself some feel for them first. I can take off and land on the field the way it is, I was hoping to get a little more "room" at the end of the runway.
Ken, Thanks for reminder on the brakes, I had read about doing that before, I had competely forgotten about them.
I have plenty of room to line up, I just have to see how they behave. I am including some pictures from the ends of the runway so you can see what I am talking / writing about.
This is the view now from the south looking north. I have just knocked down most of the brush, but there still is an 8 ft wide, 2 foot deep ditch just in front of what is left of the brush. Behind it I have another 300 feet I could use.
Ken, Thanks for reminder on the brakes, I had read about doing that before, I had competely forgotten about them.
I have plenty of room to line up, I just have to see how they behave. I am including some pictures from the ends of the runway so you can see what I am talking / writing about.
This is the view now from the south looking north. I have just knocked down most of the brush, but there still is an 8 ft wide, 2 foot deep ditch just in front of what is left of the brush. Behind it I have another 300 feet I could use.
05-03-2005, 08:53 PM
#7
Thread Starter
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
North end, looking south. The second one just is to show what the brush looked like at 8 feet tall, that's why getting stuck in it was tough to get it out of.
05-03-2005, 08:56 PM
#8
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RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
put a big pip in the ditch, and cover that up with dirt to extend the runway like they do driveways.. And then bushhg.mow the rest
05-04-2005, 10:41 AM
#9
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RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
ORIGINAL: RCKen
Brit,
Going to disagree with you a bit. Flaps and spoilers are 2 different things. Flaps extend down from the back of a wing, they increase the lift that the wing produces which let's you fly at a slower speed. Spoilers pop up on top of the wing, they are used to disrupt the flow of air across the wing which disrupts lift. A common use of spoilers is to kill all lift from a wing while a plane (especially airliners) taxis, which lets them taxi at a higher speed without worrying about lift from the wing lifting the plane.
In this example, the plane ballooning when you put the flaperons down is exactly what they are supposed to do. When you deploy the flaps they produce more lift, therefore lifting the plane. You don't want to extend the flaps at a high speed because you run the risk of tearing them off. They are designed for use at slower speeds. They do take some practice to use correctly. Make some approaches at about a mistake high and deploy your flaperons. Watch what the plane does and practice throttle management to fly your plane at an awfully slow speed!!!
Spoilers are used by RC glider pilots a lot when they are trying to land on a given spot (or inside a circle). They raise the spoilers which kills the lift produced by the wing and the plane basically stops flying and falls to the ground. Of course they do this from just a couple of inch's height.
Hope this helps.
ORIGINAL: britbrat
True flaps (or spoilers) will let you make a steep short approach, with a short flare & roll-out.
True flaps (or spoilers) will let you make a steep short approach, with a short flare & roll-out.
Going to disagree with you a bit. Flaps and spoilers are 2 different things. Flaps extend down from the back of a wing, they increase the lift that the wing produces which let's you fly at a slower speed. Spoilers pop up on top of the wing, they are used to disrupt the flow of air across the wing which disrupts lift. A common use of spoilers is to kill all lift from a wing while a plane (especially airliners) taxis, which lets them taxi at a higher speed without worrying about lift from the wing lifting the plane.
In this example, the plane ballooning when you put the flaperons down is exactly what they are supposed to do. When you deploy the flaps they produce more lift, therefore lifting the plane. You don't want to extend the flaps at a high speed because you run the risk of tearing them off. They are designed for use at slower speeds. They do take some practice to use correctly. Make some approaches at about a mistake high and deploy your flaperons. Watch what the plane does and practice throttle management to fly your plane at an awfully slow speed!!!
Spoilers are used by RC glider pilots a lot when they are trying to land on a given spot (or inside a circle). They raise the spoilers which kills the lift produced by the wing and the plane basically stops flying and falls to the ground. Of course they do this from just a couple of inch's height.
Hope this helps.
Spoilers are not just deployed to kill lift at landing, they are usefull in-flight control surfaces. Unlike flaps or flapperons, they can be deployed at relatively high speeds to act as speed brakes, and to give high sink rates at safe airspeeds. They are usefull for making steep approaches at low airspeeds -- just what is needed for hitting a short strip. The ability to flare effectively with spoilers can be somewhat compromised, but that is very dependent upon the specific a/c types. If necessary, the spoilers can be retracted to flare & re-deployed to touch down. This can give a very abreviated approach & run-out.
Flapperons have more adverse effects on flight stability than either flaps or spoilers. They increase the liklihood of adverse yaw with aileron input, and If they are deployed too steeply (too much throw), aside from the resulting pitch-up, they can also end up giving you aileron reversal.
05-04-2005, 02:22 PM
#12
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Britbrat,
trying to explain the differences has become a reflex reaction for me. We have a guy at our field who runs around insisting on explaining to new pilot that flaps and spoilers are the same thing (you have to know that this is a guy that is a "bleacher flyer". You know, the guy who sits in the bleachers and tells everybody how to fly). So whenever I get students who say they are the same I immediately stop and explain why they aren't the same.
[8D]
trying to explain the differences has become a reflex reaction for me. We have a guy at our field who runs around insisting on explaining to new pilot that flaps and spoilers are the same thing (you have to know that this is a guy that is a "bleacher flyer". You know, the guy who sits in the bleachers and tells everybody how to fly). So whenever I get students who say they are the same I immediately stop and explain why they aren't the same.
[8D]
05-04-2005, 07:05 PM
#13
Thread Starter
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
After reading many very fiery threads about the use of flaperons, I may just not use them. I don't need that much argument. I just wanted to land a little shorter. It does look as if they can induce some nasty tendencies that may prove costly to recover from. After knocking down the majority of the brush at the north end of the runway, the tendency for my plane to balloon in proximity the the brush has been diminished to a fair degree. Maybe that will take care of enough of it. Thanks.
05-06-2005, 09:19 PM
#14
Thread Starter
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Alright, you probably knew that I would do it anyway. I did. It works just fine. I set my dual rates to 70% for my first test, they slowed the plane down some, put kind of a nice "cushion" of air under it. I had to be fairly careful, the crosswind was 90 degrees across the runway, from nearly calm to about 10 mph. I found that the ailerons worked fine at the slower speed and I didn't have any difficulty controlling it at all. It seemed like it wanted to stay nose up on it's own the last few feet before touchdown, although there didn't seem to be a feeling like I was stalling it. Pushing the nose down with the elevator steepend the approach quickly. I found out that it will take off with flaps also.
05-07-2005, 03:22 PM
#16
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
ORIGINAL: Pilot Chad
Some planes HAVE to take off with flaps up. And it is common for airliners to because they creat extra lift
Some planes HAVE to take off with flaps up. And it is common for airliners to because they creat extra lift
I think you mean flaps down. Flaps extend down from the back of the wing.
05-07-2005, 08:53 PM
#17
Thread Starter
RE: Tiger 60 and Flaperons
Well, the whole point was, on this plane, the flaperons work just fine. I was kind of concerned that the use of them would cause adverse yaw to the point of no return, and after reading the multitude of posts about them, I was ready to call them quits. However, I have tried it on the Tiger, and they seem to add value to the plane. On other models, they may cause some problems, or to someone with the tendency to have problems discerning stalls on this aircraft, they could be trouble. Even after one use they were predictable.
