aspeed

Or shim the liner for using the pipe. I have to admit that the Picco .12 that I picked up at a swap meet, make the ASPs look pretty tame. They are a very good bang for the buck, and fun to experiment with as the damage is cheap to replace if you bugger something up.

Pond Skipper

Yea I thought about advancing the timing I may try adding enough to
get to 165-170 deg. Looking into the exhaust port the bottom of the
sleeve is sticking up and down into the port about .5mm wonder why>>?
Perhaps their car version has that removed. Will have it to compare to
the transfer port heights. Maybe a simple mod with my dremel.

My converted car engine V12RR blows the doors off this engine.
The fun here is playing with the ASP .12 engine since I own a
new one.


ASP 12 with a APC 6.5x5 at 18,980 static.
V12RR with a APC 6.5x5 at 22,784 static. OS #8 plug.
If you have that prop see what the Picco .12 can do


Here's the run down so far in stock form:

ASP .12A / 2.11cc engine.
20% nitro and oil using full wave pipes

Top 4:
APC 5.25 x 6.25E / 18,873 / 112 mph
MAS 5.22 x 6 / 19,541 / 111 mph
MAS 5.5 x 4.5 / 22,430 / 96 mph
MAS 6x4 / 22,370 / 95 mph

APC 6.5x5 / 18,980 / 90 mph
APC 7x6 / 15,830 / 90 mph
APC 7x5 / 17,118 / 81 mph
APC 6.3x4 / 20,700 / 78 mph




Back cut on the prop and cleaned up the tip.

Looking at the 111-112 mph range which
will unload better my guess the E props higher
pitch at the hub may reduce some top end rpm.
The more constant pitch is helping with rpm from
the MAS prop with its thicker airfoil may
give better thrust too.

Mr Cox

Your number for the APC 6.5x5 sounds about right. From my notes I have it at around 18500rpm on that prop with the stock muffler and 10% nitro. This, according to APC data, corresponds to more than 0.3hp (or about 220W) so that is a little more power than on the smaller props. The pipe is then merely a rather expensive and heavy muffler though...

Pond Skipper

Why do you say that the pipe is set to do work in the unloaded state.

It should make plenty of power to carry the 28g goo diverter.
Its making an additional 480 rpm with 10% more nitro so not hindering
at the moment. Unloaded state should clear the 1k mark over a muffler.

18,980 / APC 6.5x5 /.322 hp 240w and 2.1lbs of thrust should do well

There is these all worth trying.
6.5x5.5
6.5x6
6.5x6.5

I plan to make a plane for the ASP .12 then up grade with the V12RR after
all the flying bugs are worked out. This has had me pushing for good results.

Here it is already have all the wood set aside:



V12RR / 6.5x5 / 22,784 / .532hp / 397w / 2.7lbs thrust / 108 mph

Static Potentials:
6.5x5.5 / 22.3k / 116
6.5x6 / 21.75k / 124 (on order)
6.5x6.5 / 21.1k / 129 mph

Mr Cox

I haven't said anything about unloading or not...

The 480rpm difference might simply be down to the extra nitro, or a difference between two different engines considering their quality control.

A muffler typically removes 500-1000rpm compared to open exhaust/open face. A "tuned pipe" can give you the open face values on mildly timed engines but it will not give you any power gain compared to open face values. To simply use the pipe as muffler seems a bit silly.

Pond Skipper

For me I see:

1) It diverts the goo past the wings and front end
2) Keeps the noise down at my local park
3) Sounds good
4) Looks good
5) Can gain power to the prop
6) Can improve idle
7) Can be use to add tank pressure
8) Far from silly if enjoyed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTMPVIO7eBk&feature=youtu.be

aspeed

I only ran the Picco .12 on the one day. I used a Master Airscrew 7-5 like all the .15s tha I did. I wrote down 18,300 and 22,000 with the Ucktam pipe that looks like the one you have. I think the header on your ASP is adding quite a bit of length compared to a rear exhaust motor that the pipe is designed for. It would come on at a bit lower rpm that way. That is ok if you are running a bigger prop, but you seem to be using a lighter loaded APC 6.5 - 5. I also ran a combat F2D prop and wrote down 27,000 with or without the pipe. That makes me think that the pipe is maxed out at 27,000 and is holding the motor back.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Keeping the noise down at your park is huge, because if you were to lose flying privileges at that park, I imagine you could lose privileges at every similar park in your area.

Pond Skipper

See running vid, yes the header is cut to 3in now as shown.
With bearings and low speed needle should do just fine.
I have the pipe length set to aid in power unloaded although
agreed the timing isn't going to offer much boost as180 deg.

Chuck was able to prove via video that they can put out some reasonable rpm unloaded
is why I bought one as price wise they are cheap.
He had his up to 24k static with a MAS 6x4 and I saw MAS 5.5 x 4.5 / 22,430 / 96 mph not bad at all.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-...12-thread.html


Modified ASP.12 on a Delta with a APC 5x5 was getting great numbers over 130

Pond Skipper

Yes very true,
My Skorch II flew over the weekend was not near as loud as some of the electrics the 400 class brushless
planes tend to make loud prop noise when flown at full throttle. When I fly at half throttle it purrs along
very quite.

Pond Skipper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaE-WvllGYg&feature=youtu.be Published on Jan 10, 2016
ASP .12A / MAS 6x4 / 22,370 / 85 mph static / est. 25k unloaded / 95 mph
1.9 lbs. thrust / .42 hp / 313w / great power ratings / 20% nitro and oil / no pressure.

CP was able to get 24k static with this prop on 30% nitro open exhaust modded engine on pressure.




Top 4:
APC 5.25 x 6.25E / 18,873 / 112 mph
MAS 5.22 x 6 / 19,541 / 111 mph
MAS 5.5 x 4.5 / 22,430 / 96 mph
MAS 6x4 / 22,370 / 95 mph

Average 5.5 x 5.2 / 20,804 / 102.4
Est. 5.5x5 / 21.1k / 104
Gemfan 5.5x5 Black Glass Fiber Bullnose Propellers



APC 6.5x5 / 18,980 / 90 mph
APC 7x6 / 15,830 / 90 mph
APC 7x5 / 17,118 / 81 mph
APC 6.3x4 / 20,700 / 78 mph

Pond Skipper

.07 Vertigo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQ4lFsvjvM&feature=youtu.be Bench 4.2x4 / 25,678 to 770 / .147hp / 110w / 98 mph / .86 lbs / 13.8oz / est. 29k / 110mph
Yet to be field tested for pipe reaction unloaded will vid next with no extra gear onboard.

4.4x4 est. 24.8k / 28k / 106mph / good for the extra thrust..
Ref: Field vid 4.5X4 / 23.98K / 127W / 16.96 oz / unloaded 27.631K / 105 mph

Pond Skipper

Made a coupler for the AP .09 timing needs adjusting will do a base line test.

APC 4.75 x 5.5 est. 19.9k / 104 static



Previous tests:
AP .09 Hornet - static 20% nitro

APC 5.25x6.25E / 16,715 (saito muffler optimized) 99mph
13.6oz thrust / est. unloaded 114mph / with tuned pipe should hit 120+

APC 6.3x4 / 17,610..........(saito muffler optimized) 67mph - great thrust!
MA 5.5x4.5 / 19,730........(saito muffler optimized) 84mph

Pond Skipper

AP .09 - 1.5cc Tuned Pipe is a great match!

Stock timing 150 deg. base line reading / will shim the sleeve next.
4.75 x 5.5 / 22.24 static / 116 mph / .18 hp / 134.3w / 1.1 lb thrust / est. unloaded 130 +
Engine needs a pressure tap on the pipe, was very thirsty at full throttle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAPsBHdsqSk&feature=youtu.be The Vertigo .07 and pipe 170 deg. timing on pressure.
APC 4.75x5.5
- In the hand 21,56k rpm / 112 mph
- Best pass 23,60k rpm / 123 mph / with GPS speed logger and onboard vid 107mph.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Your coupler threads to the engine and it also locks / seals the pipe securely..?
I'm surprised to see the .09 doing so well..!
Not because I've ever seen one run, but I have looked at the advertised specs some time in the past and figured it was a low performing engine.

Pond Skipper

Yes lucked out on setting up the pipe mount as I already had a threaded coupler from the Saito 40 muffler. It screws in and with some thick walled shrink tube over the exposed threads. I press / rotated the pipe on perfect tight fit. Had to use oil to work it on it was that tight. .. so no air leaks able to handle the pump action of the pipe at full bore without blowing off. I can use a stinger mount to support the back end and avoid any migration over time. Instant open carb didn't slow down the engine it spins up the prop with ease as noted in the vid after some idle time.

aspeed

The .09 and .15 are not bad little motors. They have many features of the .12, using the bypass ports milled into the sleeve only. The AP .15 needs a bit more breathing upgrades than the .09, as the muffler and carb are really made for an .09. The .15 is just a bigger overbore of the .09 using a 15.5 mm piston. It really is only a .135 cu in. or so, and performs as such, just a bit below say, an LA .15. I like them for carving on, as they are cheap to replace if you cut too far. I have only run the .09 on a 7-4 prop as they recommend, and it seems a bit better than a TD for example. I have not tested the pipe much in that one yet. I have been wondering if the .15 piston/cylinder would fit in the .12, and maybe get it up to a .15, as the .12 has a longer stroke than the .09/ .15. I do not have a .12 to play with. These ASP motors never seem to be in stock anywhere. Right now our money here in the Great White North seems to be worth about nothing too.

Pond Skipper

Hi Alan, yes might very well be able to do some retro fitting between the .12 and 15 if
I spot one will let you know the .12's are very hard to find now.
What do you use to grind on the sleeve diamond bit? I found this..

aspeed

I use those on the crank. Got mine at Harbour freight just like that, we have a Princess Auto that carries similar stuff. I use similar carbide ones for the brass and aluminum, and carbide cutters on the mill and lathe. I think the .09 and .15 are OK for me, at least they are rear exhaust which is more useful for my purposes. I have lots of LA .10s to .46s for piddly rc stuff. The side exhaust is good for the rc stuff.

Pond Skipper

I'm thinking about grinding the top of the exhaust port about 2mm to raise the timing and open up the throttle barrel till it matches the aluminum carb bodies intake. The pipe was pulling in air / fuel fast overwhelming the tank draw so will have to tap the pipe and add a pressure nipple too. The rod has no bushings so light weight props should help keep things together for a reliable sport / race engine.

Mr Cox

At the risk of sounding negative or beating a dead horse etc. Don't take this the wrong way but I don't think that it is doing very well...?

Sure, it makes a lot of noise, but 0.18hp (134W) at 22000rpm is nothing for a .09 engine?
The very same engine made more than 0.20hp around 17500rpm with the APC 6.3x4 prop and a Saito muffler (as listed on the previous page).
So the tuned pipe/muffler is not doing anything here in terms of power, or the peak power has been past or shifted elsewhere?

To put things in perspective, one can also take a look at the data for a bone stock OS.10FSR engine for instance;

Pond Skipper

Bare in mind the line 3 was based on 40% nitro for the .10 engine and a bigger prop
the smallest tested was a 7x3.5 thru 8x4 different approach only finding top bhp. at 18k

AP .09 Hornet - static 20% nitro
The choice of prop was for speed not hp. which is great for just on stock timing.

APC 4.75 x 5.5 / 22.24 static / 116 mph / .18 hp / 134.3w

APC 5.25x6.25E / 16,715 (saito muffler optimized) 99mph
13.6oz thrust / .16hp (plan to retest with the tuned pipe)

APC 6.3x4 / 17,610..........(saito muffler optimized) 67mph - great thrust!
30oz thrust / .23 hp - great thrust but crappy speed

MA 5.5x4.5 / 19,730........(saito muffler optimized) 84mph
21oz thrust / .22hp - not good enough for speed but excellent sport


Note TD .09 on the same fuel and prop:
APC 6.3x4 16,300 / .19 hp / 24oz thrust (1,310 rpm less)

Both engines have carbs and after exhaust muffling

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Howdy Mr. Cox..!
For what seemed like 10 years, Tower Hobbies carried this engine for a very low price. So low [$30.?] that I guessed that the engine would not be worth trying.
This is the Reverse Psychology I have sometimes when shopping for tools and mechanical equipment.
So, if one of these engines is able to run at 100 mph and make to the bottom of a one gallon jug of fuel...I think that's doing OK.

Pond Skipper

Update - pipe vs the muffler

APC 5.25x6.25E / 16,715 (saito muffler optimized) 99mph

.09 Retest with Tuned pipe:
APC 5.25x6.25E / 18,193 / tuned pipe made an extra 1,478 rpm. / 108 mph
The horse is alive and kicking!

Note ASP .12 APC 5.25 x 6.25E / 18,873 / 112 mph
Header pipe is not optimized yet should do 19.6k +
Have a 6.5x6 on order I want to try first as a 5.5x6

Can try the 5x5E for a bit more thrust next and will also help on the load.

1st choice thus far - APC 4.75 x 5.5E / 22.24 static / 116 mph / .18 hp / .96 lb thrust
Load is just right I may have the best prop overall.

Update:
5x5E / 21,479 / 102 mph / 1.1 lb thrust / .183 hp

Mr Cox

Yes, one usually get what one pays for...
For me I guess the high weight put me off a bit too and I went with the ASP .12 instead.

I still think that the power curve is odd though, very constant and well below other engines in this size.